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Dragon age series protagonists losing personality?


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#151
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I love my Hawkes' more personal stories but could never reconcile spending time with all the companions BECAUSE they were supposed to be friends rather than coworkers in the fight against a big bad. Why would my anti-blood magic Hawke keep checking in with Merrill three years later? Why is my militantly mage freedom Hawke still popping in at Fenris' corpse-strewn mansion six years later? Sure, there's the rivalry system (which I really liked) but even that requires your Hawke cares about the person to show up and tell them exactly how wrong they are.

I can see this point but I wasn't really bothered by this. I have friends In real life that I don't see eye to eye with at all on certain issues, such as religion or politics. We are still friends nonetheless.

I think some of the inquisitors companions made little sense and most of them would have made better NPCs than close confidants that someone in the inquisitors role would actually bring with them on a daily basis. Regardless of whether I like the characters or not, I see no professional reason to have potentially politically harmful characters such as Dorian, Sera, Iron Bull, or Cole in my actual inner circle. Maybe they would have made better NPC agents but not the type the inquisitor in that situation would have paraded around publicly. After the revelation, I wouldn't want any public affiliation with Blackwall, either. But, this is the cast we are given however nonsensical it is to choose these specific people to be your party when you technically have thousands of people to choose from. Some of the agents would have made stronger party members - like Sir Michel. I know they wanted a lot of different perspectives to be shown but that doesn't make the choice of them being in our circle to make much more sense.
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#152
Hazegurl

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It seems that way. Some people felt that Hawke's three basic personalities were too dominant, so maybe Bioware thought that making them more neutral would please the fans. Now they are too neutral.

 

But it's nothing new. Some people loathed the Warden's muteness, while others (as seen in this thread) welcomed it since it allowed for more character input and interpretation (and less dialogue wheel paraphrasing).

 

In other words, no matter what Bioware does, they can't win. Not with everyone, at least (by the way, I'm in the "Inquisitor is too neutral" camp, but the game is still awesome). All in all, at least the Inquisitor had many options to express their religious beliefs and their thoughts on the whole "Herald of Andraste" thing in different ways. That's something worth noting.

I disagree, they can win. I love having a voiced protag. The issue is that BW resolves issues by doing the extreme opposite of the issue thus resolving nothing.  They could have stuck with the personalities (just not so extreme) but without giving us some counter that forces us to remain at a set personality. The emotional wheel was good and added a bit more depth. Combine that with actually giving us side quests with dialogue and choices as to how to handle random people in the world and I would have been happy.  Give me the option to not care, be a butthole, or be the saint everyone thinks I am. That could have been useful in exercising my character's personality.


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#153
Beomer

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IMO the reason the protagonist is losing personality is because they are giving him/her too much personality. In DAO the Warden could be anything and anyone you chose giving every player a lot of room, and indeed forcing every player to develop the Warden's personality in their head and basing the options you chose on that.

DA2 onwards with the voiced protagonist and the limited lines of dialogue there are only a few personality types that your character can be and limited lines mean that there is lesser room for developing the character in your head. 

A simple example is the conversation with Solas right before assaulting Adamant to fight the GW. The options you get either let you make light of the situation, or saying that had Cory not been involved you would have supported even the demon summoning, or agree with Solas completely and say the GW are wrong. Where the hell is the option to say that my Inquisitor agrees with the Warden's goals (something Solas does not) but not their methods? The limited options limit the thoughts and personality of Inquisitor, which IMO makes them duller and more lack luster.


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#154
Dova

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First people complained that the Grey Warden wasn't voiced and was boring for some of them. Then they complained that Hawke's paraphrasing ruined their immersion. Now they complain that the new voice acting direction is too bland. Seriously, BioWare will never please anyone with the BSN attitude going on.

Yep. And I think that's how people are always going to treat BioWare because with enough people, BioWare tries to please their fans and smuggle in what they want then people will still want to kick their ass about it later.

People can't seem to grasp the concept that BioWare cannot and will not please everyone; they are doing there best for the fans who can grasp that concept.

People complain about how the game lacks; game lacks because BioWare gets their ass chewed by "fans" every time they try and do things risky so they play things safe and get their ass chewed still. 

BioWare can't seem to win with these people on the forums and it dern sure is irritating to be apart of these forums with peoples attitude.


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#155
KaiserShep

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I can see this point but I wasn't really bothered by this. I have friends In real life that I don't see eye to eye with at all on certain issues, such as religion or politics. We are still friends nonetheless.
I think some of the inquisitors companions made little sense and most of them would have made better NPCs than close confidants that someone in the inquisitors role would actually bring with them on a daily basis. Regardless of whether I like the characters or not, I see no professional reason to have potentially politically harmful characters such as Dorian, Sera, Iron Bull, or Cole in my actual inner circle. Maybe they would have made better NPC agents but not the type the inquisitor in that situation would have paraded around publicly. After the revelation, I wouldn't want any public affiliation with Blackwall, either. But, this is the cast we are given however nonsensical it is to choose these specific people to be your party when you technically have thousands of people to choose from. Some of the agents would have made stronger party members - like Sir Michel. I know they wanted a lot of different perspectives to be shown but that doesn't make the choice of them being in our circle to make much more sense.

I don't think anything comes close to a krogan mercenary aboard a prototype military vessel. BioWare loves its ragtag groups, professionalism be damned.

#156
JamieCOTC

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You don't need a set personality to give a PC character. The Warden is still my favorite PC of the series as they were damned near perfect for shaping your own character. The Warden could be an absolute bastard (or ******) or the absolute hero. Hell, there are more variations on the HoF than the Inquisitor in DA:I. And though DA:O was an epic tale of saving the world, it was first and foremost the the story of the Warden.  DA2, despite it's weaknesses, is a good example of the PC's story, the story of Hawke. DA:I, by contrast, feels like it is the story of the Inquisition and not the Inquisitor.


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#157
Bizantura

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Bioware is one of the few who give personality to protagonist / npc's.  But since DAO in rapid decline.  But if you like those sort of games, not really much choise, is there!

 

Hope ME can uphold a new gripping protagonist like Shepard and npc compagnions or go the "bland"  route the DA franchise went.



#158
Mr.House

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I couldnt connect with my nicey nice mage, felt like she was just mary-sueish. Im playing a dalish elf now that just wants to go home to her clan. She doesnt trust anyone, doesnt get along with anyone, stand-offish, etc, then she starts to change, slowly. She fits the whole "i never wanted this" schtick and my headcanon backstory for her makes her far less cliche than I would have expected.

But I struggle with this new dialogue wheel. Im constantly picking options that are way OOC that she would never say. I remember one choice I made was me trying to be remorseful, then she mentions the bloody maker! I was like no, reload, you dont believe in the maker, second option was sarcastic and insensitive, third option was to be a ******. So i wen with the third because it was more in character for her, but still not the response I wanted her to give.

I tell you what, you need an impressive imagination to give your character an significant personality. Otherwise theyre just a mindless drone.

My dalish warden wanted to go home, she could not. Welcome to Bioware games, there will ALWAYS be restrictions, DAO and DAI simply had less compared to DA2.



#159
Mr.House

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I really agree on Hawke. I was not a big fan of DA2 and it was my least favorite of the series - but I related the most to Hawke and he felt the most 'real'. His motivations to protect his family resonate a lot more with me than save the world stories.

You kill peopel by the score, yet there's Petrice who not only tried to have you killed, is trying to incite war. What are your options? Oh there is no options you have to let her walk. WTF.

 

DA2 suffers more of stupid situations like that that automatically break people out of Hawke.  There might be restrictions in DAO and DAi but nowhere as bad as that ****.



#160
Mr.House

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Bioware is one of the few who give personality to protagonist / npc's.  But since DAO in rapid decline.  But if you like those sort of games, not really much choise, is there!

 

Hope ME can uphold a new gripping protagonist like Shepard and npc compagnions or go the "bland"  route the DA franchise went.

"Gripping character like SHepard." I'm going to be over here, laughing my ass off.



#161
errantknight

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IMO the reason the protagonist is losing personality is because they are giving him/her too much personality. In DAO the Warden could be anything and anyone you chose giving every player a lot of room, and indeed forcing every player to develop the Warden's personality in their head and basing the options you chose on that.
DA2 onwards with the voiced protagonist and the limited lines of dialogue there are only a few personality types that your character can be and limited lines mean that there is lesser room for developing the character in your head. 
A simple example is the conversation with Solas right before assaulting Adamant to fight the GW. The options you get either let you make light of the situation, or saying that had Cory not been involved you would have supported even the demon summoning, or agree with Solas completely and say the GW are wrong. Where the hell is the option to say that my Inquisitor agrees with the Warden's goals (something Solas does not) but not their methods? The limited options limit the thoughts and personality of Inquisitor, which IMO makes them duller and more lack luster.

While I disagree that the inquisitor lacks personality, I do agree that we have less opportunity to create wide ranging characterizations with the dialogue wheel, although they've improved that from DA2, imo. The main issue is the amount of recorded dialogue they'd have to have to do that. We do have more choices on the wheel than we used to, though. As long as I see improvement with the method from game to game, I'm ok with it though. You don't get to where you need to be in one step in pretty much anything.

I really, really appreciate the return to the modified over the shoulder view for conversations, as well. I found the fly on the wall view of DA2 very distancing, like I was suddenly not my character, but standing outside their experience.

#162
Melca36

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Heh, BioWare can't win for losing. They give 'em too much personality, and people complain, they try to leave it open to the player's interpretation, and people complain, they're screwed, no matter what they do.

People have reached the point they are looking for things to complain about



#163
Melca36

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I absolutly adore Hawke. A lot of bad things can be said about DA2, but Hawke was indeed awesome. Partiulary the snarky one. I played DA2 four times coz I loved him so much.

 

I love my Warden, but the lack of voice stopped me from fully invest emotionally in him.

 

Inq was fine. But he just became awesme for being at the right place at the right time. I wish we had some kind of prequel from when he was leaving home and going to the Conclave. It felt...too easy his beginning. Still like him though. But when I met my Hawke, Inqs personality was bland compared.

 

 

All of them are about the same. You need the imagination to play them. I had no issues with any of them


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#164
Melca36

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I liked the personality choice in DA2, is a shame so many people were outraged about Hawke daring to have a personality that BW removed it in Inquisition, only for its fans to change their mind & start complaining the Inquisitor is too neutral :rolleyes:

You can play a mean inquisitor...try changing your dialogue choices.



#165
Melca36

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I actually think Hawke is the best protagonist so far. I really like the more personal story and the companions felt more like friends than coworkers.

My Inquisitor companions were friends for mine. Sounds like you just dont like change


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#166
Hiemoth

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For me, the Inquisitor also somewhat bland and distant, personal opinion of course as evident by many responses in this thread, and in the end I felt that for me it was the combined effect of two design choices.

 

First are is the joint effect of the large areas and lack of interaction during side quests. Now most of the side quests do follow the same structure than DAO and DA2, by the way from now on I will for simplicity only refer to DA2, but it largely also applies to DAO. You meet someone/find something, go through combat scenes and kill someone/find something. However, in DA2 there was usually a dialogue and choices of response when accepting the quest and you had a dialogue and/or choice after completing the side quest. Often it might have been cosmetic, but it did allow PC to establish who they were or how they felt about the situation. In DAI most quests are given, accepted without much comment and when they are finished, they just end with a bright text saying it has now been done. There is no real push given that something has been accomplished and outside the occasional judgements, no real capability for the PC to express their stand on what just happened. In addition to this, since the areas are so huge, there can literally be hours between times the PC has to react to something, further decreasing the sense of the character since they did not feel really present in the game.

 

Now, these choices are understandable in a sense, as they are a natural consequence of choosing to focus on exploration and large areas. Not only do they need resources to craft such large areas, they also need to populate them with something to do/find, thus requiring more resources. In a funny way, it is almost the opposite of what happened with DA2, where they had the same maps, but more interactive stuff using those exactly same areas. And ultimately they gave each area a unique story supported by those side quests, but just did not really have the character have any presence in those stories, at least from my perspective. I feel the War Table, I feel I am misremembering that term, missions were supposed to partially allow the choice based substance, but to me the problem with that was that it did not feel like they were not able to implement it in a desired fashion, as your choices there did not really alter the Inquisition or how it perceived in any manner and it ended up feeling really disconnected from the rest of the game. Based on the pre-release interviews, I suspect that this is something they had to cut back on and originally wanted the Inquisition to feel much more organic as it ended up feeling, but nevertheless, to me, it just made the PC feel really bland.

 

The second issue is the voice actor direction, and this is something I am honestly struggling to comprehend. To explain why, I need to refer momentarily to Mass Effect. Jennifer Hale and Mark Meer took very different approaches to playing the character, showing how much the voice actor brings to the table in making those characters breath, and something that, to me, it is often overlooked when arguing which one was better is that the game provided two different options for the character, thus if the player did not feel constrained by gender, they could easily find an approach that worked for them and their tastes. Now the reason I feel this is relevant to the DAI discussion is that they provided two voice actors per gender, thus four voice actors total, and had all four have the exactly the same approach to playing the character by having each dialogue choice be neutrally voiced and each emotional reaction be subdued. This is to me the thing I cannot comprehend, as they did not have a situation where they had to choose which crowd to cater to, but they could have very easily had one voice actor take the subdued/neutral approach and other to have a more emotional/reactive style.

 

The decision on the voice direction is something I would love to hear Bioware rational for, not because I feel they need to defend themselves or I have a right for any kinds of decision explanations, but rather just because I usually try to understand the reasoning behind decisions and cannot with this, probably purely a complete lack of understanding on my part. After all, femShep is almost a cult icon and, while many had problems with Hawke, most of those not being opposed to voice acting had issues with the dominant personality part rather than the emotive responses, something that was addressed by reaction wheel. If they only had one voice actor per role, I understand that there are players with different preferences and that the game makers need to decide which one to cater to. Yet her, to repeat myself, they provided two options for the voice per gender, but had both options directed to the same crowd.

 

Far longer response than I expected, and most like TLDR. Sorry about that and my gratitude to anyone who trudged through it.


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#167
Hiemoth

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People have reached the point they are looking for things to complain about

 

A somewhat dismissive attitude to people's criticism, especially since it is only valid if they same people complaining about DA2 are now complaining about DAI. To me, purely on a surface glance, it seems that there is a large number of people who disliked DA2 and like how DAI does things and another large number of people who liked the DA2 approach and dislike the DAI approach.

 

So following the logic presented by posts like this, if anyone complained/criticized anything before, someone else commenting on a different thing now is just looking for something to complain about.


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#168
Melca36

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I also miss that we don't have a back story like in DAO.

I don't ask to have an enclypodia, no. No just an intro story like it was before.

 

Blame the people who wanted multiple races in the game because playing humans is so evil.

 

Seriously though...you can create your backstory when you go talk to Josephine in Haven.  Then you can wing it from there.


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#169
Melca36

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A somewhat dismissive attitude to people's criticism, especially since it is only valid if they same people complaining about DA2 are now complaining about DAI. To me, purely on a surface glance, it seems that there is a large number of people who disliked DA2 and like how DAI does things and another large number of people who liked the DA2 approach and dislike the DAI approach.

 

So following the logic presented by posts like this, if anyone complained/criticized anything before, someone else commenting on a different thing now is just looking for something to complain about.

 

 

I enjoyed DA2's approach but some of the lines in sarcastic Hawke should have been aggressive and some of the aggressive Hawke lines should have been sarcastic.  IT WAS NOT PERFECT like some people claim it is.

 

I am currently playing a ruthless Inquisitor where everyone HATES me.  You are obviously not choosing the right dialogue choices.

 

My goal is to get everyone leave my inquisitor by the end of the game since it can be done, according to the developers.

 

As for not having enough personality or a backstory....LOOK to the people who whined constantly how they hated playing humans.  If you want somebody to blame for the lack of personality........look to them.  

 

As for personality...there are ways to give your character more personality. Look at the choices you make.



#170
Tsunami Chef

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You kill peopel by the score, yet there's Petrice who not only tried to have you killed, is trying to incite war. What are your options? Oh there is no options you have to let her walk. WTF.

 

DA2 suffers more of stupid situations like that that automatically break people out of Hawke.  There might be restrictions in DAO and DAi but nowhere as bad as that ****.

I never had that many problems with this but god damn the fact that you couldn't kill her after she set you up to die pissed me off so much. I really don't understand why they made her such an evil douchebag and they never give you the option to personally kill her.



#171
Dova

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You kill peopel by the score, yet there's Petrice who not only tried to have you killed, is trying to incite war. What are your options? Oh there is no options you have to let her walk. WTF.

Don't know if you done goofed somewhere in that game but that's not the only option for Petrice.

You can let her walk, sure.

But then she can also take an arrow to the forehead and chest by a qunari.

Don't know if it's just me but I'm pretty sure she isn't walking after that.



#172
Tsunami Chef

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I disagree, they can win. I love having a voiced protag. The issue is that BW resolves issues by doing the extreme opposite of the issue thus resolving nothing.  They could have stuck with the personalities (just not so extreme) but without giving us some counter that forces us to remain at a set personality. The emotional wheel was good and added a bit more depth. Combine that with actually giving us side quests with dialogue and choices as to how to handle random people in the world and I would have been happy.  Give me the option to not care, be a butthole, or be the saint everyone thinks I am. That could have been useful in exercising my character's personality.

You want side quests with more depth along with the main story that is as long as any other Bioware game, and the amount of dialogue that is way more than any other bioware game. Yeah, sounds like they can't win unless they produce the best game in the history of the world with extremely in depth sidequests with choices as well as a main campaign that is longer than any of their previous installments.

 

Also, you're the inquisitor. You make decisions all the time except they are based on bigger events than individual people. Which can be expected since....i don't know...you are the leader of one of the biggest armies in thedas and not some random Grey Warden or citizen hanging out with his buddies.

 

Lastly...Is it really so important to peoples RP experience that they have the option to do idiotically evil things? If a mom wants to be reunited with her son does there also need to be an option where you kill her son and show her his severed head to let her know the world sucks? The reason this doesn't happen is because it makes no sense and stalls any fluid story in it's place. It's also the reason why you can't get anywhere in life by killing people any time they ask you if you want coffee. There are plenty of options in DA:I where you can be sensibly ruthless/cruel/irrational. To give the player this option at every step wastes resources that could be used for the 95% of players who aren't going to pick the hilariously evil option.



#173
Mr.House

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Don't know if you done goofed somewhere in that game but that's not the only option for Petrice.

You can let her walk, sure.

But then she can also take an arrow to the forehead and chest by a qunari.

Don't know if it's just me but I'm pretty sure she isn't walking after that.

That's in act 2, way after she has done all the damage, I'm talking about act 1, where you know, it makes no sense why you let her walk away.



#174
Mistic

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I disagree, they can win. I love having a voiced protag. The issue is that BW resolves issues by doing the extreme opposite of the issue thus resolving nothing.  They could have stuck with the personalities (just not so extreme) but without giving us some counter that forces us to remain at a set personality. The emotional wheel was good and added a bit more depth. Combine that with actually giving us side quests with dialogue and choices as to how to handle random people in the world and I would have been happy.  Give me the option to not care, be a butthole, or be the saint everyone thinks I am. That could have been useful in exercising my character's personality.

 

Too many assumptions.

 

What about people who don't like voiced protagonists? What about people who like or don't mind voiced protagonists, but don't like the voice actor or the voice direction? What about people who prefer set personalities? What about people who don't like the emotional wheel? (just accepting any form of dialogue wheel can cause a debate). What about people who disagree on what choices should we have?

 

This thread provides examples of many of those people. No, Bioware can't win with everyone. But that's the nature of video games.


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#175
9TailsFox

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You want side quests with more depth along with the main story that is as long as any other Bioware game, and the amount of dialogue that is way more than any other bioware game. Yeah, sounds like they can't win unless they produce the best game in the history of the world with extremely in depth sidequests with choices as well as a main campaign that is longer than any of their previous installments.

 

Also, you're the inquisitor. You make decisions all the time except they are based on bigger events than individual people. Which can be expected since....i don't know...you are the leader of one of the biggest armies in thedas and not some random Grey Warden or citizen hanging out with his buddies.

Main story is not as long as any other Bioware game. It is short and especially ending rushed. They need add one year and game still rushed keep mechanic removed(you can't customise liberated keeps), Defend crestwood or keep quest removed, Final battle is not what suppose to be, it's rushed. Instead bioware wasted time on Open world filed with filer quests. Personally I never wanted open world. We ask don't reuse levels some hove Bioware come to conclusion we want open world wut? wu..? :blink:


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