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[Violet]

This is a post of a response to a thread's questions regarding the use of Varric. I've answered this

question a few times for friends; often enough that I've decided it deserves a posted clarifications. 

This is not a full list of how Archery works, but it clarifies many of - what seems to be - commonly

miss understood mechanics. It will also explain where to find your tier 3 archery weapons.

 

Misconceptions:

1. "The Archery Rogue does terrible damage." 

This is the most commonly voiced issue people have with the Archer type Rogue. I understand

completely as I suffered this same belief myself. Starting as an archer is very deceiving. All the

more so if you are someone who does Archery as a sport (as I do). Shooting a target seems to

do little to no damage. This is an immediate experience upon first picking up the bow. I mean

this literally.

You are confronted with a demon at the start of the game just after the bridge explodes. Upon 

shooting it you are startled to realize, "I didn't hurt it!" This is followed by a mixed reaction of

appall at this apparent lack of connection to reality in any way and "What the **** is this good

for then?" (the question being directed at your bow). After a few more shots with the same 

results your expectations that this was some how a fluke of game mechanics is over. No, you 

really do terrible damage with a bow. 

This is the point at which most of my friends deleted their Archer and 'confirmed' that indeed 

the Archer is simply worthless. I sympathize completely and empathize as this was my response

as well.

 

2. "Bianca makes Varric unusable." 

This is a much more problematic issue than the Archer Rogue type (as a whole) being 

(apparently) incapable of damage at the outset. 

Varric is built to use Bianca. This is somewhat awesome from the perspective of a 'lore' and 

'roleplay' perspective. In the modality of 'story' and 'immersion' it completely makes sense. 

Mechanically, this isn't all that sensible. But here's the facts: that's how what we've got. So,

what to do? 

 

~ Explanations of Tier 3 Archery: Bows and Bianca ~

The Situation:

Depending on whether you are playing an Archer Rogue or having issues with Varric primarily

the order to follow may or may not be the most immediately relevant. 

Varrica is usually everyone's primary issue, since they've already decided that Archery Rogues 

have positively awful damage. Varrica further seems to validate the idea that archery is 

simply broken and that the game is positively fixed to make matters worse.

 

As a long-time gamer I can appreciate both perspectives of 'how' this situation came about. 

 

On one hand, it really appears as though Bioware lost sight of 'introductions' to the game's

classes with the way rogue damage operates. Press R results in practically no damage to the

first enemy we ever encounter in the game. Continue to shoot results in no change, so

proving it wasn't a fluke of game mechanics and dps-RNG. 

On the other end of the spectrum I see that many players complaining have not had access

to any sort of game which forces them into an 'experience' of 'challenge' designed to produce

a 'texture' or 'mood' to the game after some time. That is, most games for the last decade or 

so, have basically said, "Don't worry. Just press a button. It's all fixed in your favor." Even 

'hardmode' in games shows only an increased health and dps from enemies: no increase in 

the difficult of the AI is provided. While DA:I does not provide a difficult AI nor any degrees 

of change in AI at any point, there is an apparent attempt to make the player feel 

'dependent' on a group - rather than a solo experience. 

 

Personal Conclusion:

The paragraph above alludes to why most players struggle the Archery situation at the

outset. The Archer appears broke because the dps from the bow given is extremely low and 

damage from a single character is itself set low to create the illusion of 'needing' those other 

party members. 

As for the 'oversight' on Biowares part in 'introducing' our characters and their functionality 

at the start of the game, I would have to agree with the (apparent) general opinion that 

Archers feel terrible. The only caveat I have with this is that it is a misconception which 

becomes reinforced because of how the game starts.

 

"How do weapons function to create this sense that the archers do terrible damage?" 

There are several factors. 

- Bows and Bianca upgrades are sparse and appear in fixed locations. 

-- This means if you are not exploring the world in its entirety there is every likelihood you 

    will miss a vital schematic or upgrade leading to the sense that the game is 'incomplete'

    or designed to limit the optimal potential of Archer Rogues. 

- All of the Tier 3 Bow and Bianca schematics are found in the the Hissing Wastes. 

-- If you have encountered the earlier version of the "Spiked" bow you may be inclined to 

    entirely disregard the schematic (should you find it) as the earlier tier bow looks as

    ridiculous as many of the others in the game.

-- If you have no explored the tombs throughout the Hissing Wastes (including the one 

    beyond the dragon you will not find your final tier 3 Archery Upgrades

 

 

- Purchase, Complete and find everything in the Hissing Wastes minus the dragon. 

I believe, having read quite a bit on the forums, some things are seriously misunderstood about 

the archer class and its mechanics. It's extremely powerful, even with tier 2 weapons. Short of 

Pride demons an arch can solo most anything in fairly short order. 

-- In general, it is best to remain at maximum range while playing an archer, both to receive 

    the benefits from your skills damage and to have time to react.

-- Your skills give you benefits to damage from taking the high ground wherever possible.

 

-- Archers require that you use Long Shot for fast immediate (high) damage.

-- Draw Shot will give maximum damage (at ranged) for most targets. It will also, usually, 

eliminate most targets in the same shot. 

---- Pressing R or Long Shot will inform those who haven't died from Draw Shot to commit. 

-- Leaping Shot may do superior damage to all three of these, but this requires all arrows hit the

target and the target has already suffered sundering. 

----- You do not actually need to have a max damage bow to do this. Any ranged weapon 136 

damage or above is entirely capable of this.

----- Tier 2 bows do damage between 130 to 146 dps. 

----- Tier 3 bows with dragon materials will do around 172 dps. 

--------- Varric's damage is on the same count as Bows with the exception of a 62% crit chance at

maximum tier. 

 

Varric with Biance: 

- Varric is a bit counter-intuitive.

I have played through the game twice now and only last week realized his weapon can reach

maximum damage. For the longest time I was stuck at 70 DPS for Bianca.

- His first few upgrades can be found fairly easily while exploring.

- I believe one of the upgrades   can be found right inside Sky Haven.

  So, there's very little struggle at the start to have him be effective.

- Around level 15 or so you'll begin to think "I am really beginning to dislike you, Varric." His 

  dps should be 'stuck' at around 106 dps by this level. 

--- In order to reach his damage maximum you will need to explore the Hissing Wastes tombs.

------ One of the tombs possess his maximum damage upgrade: 172 dps when combined with

         his other tier 3 upgrades.

------ Hissing Wastes also possesses a Tier 3 bow of the same dps. It's a 'spiked bow'. It is of 

         a better model quality than the tier 2/1 Spiked Bow (I forget which the earlier model is)

 

Varric as Daggers Rogue: 

Varric is entirely capable of being a Dagger's Rogue. I personally found this to be more functional 

than using Bianca in early to mid-game.

- His usefulness in the role of a Dagger's Rogue seems to decline considerably post-level 15 or if 

you have gone to difficulties above Casual, though all that I've said throughout this remains true.

 

Varric's Versatility: 

- This I now largely attribute to my having not understood how archery mechanics work.

- However, because of the way characters operate in close quarters.  

-- because of this I feel it is possible Varric's usefulness is somewhat dependent on the class you 

    are playing and what manner of Tier weapons your party has.

----- if you have attained full tier 3 weapons for your party and Bianca's tier 3 upgrades Varric is

       entirely functional though I personally find no use for claptraps (or whatever they are called) 

       in any respect. 

- Varric seems to function best as a static character whom you do not interact with through the 

   Tactical View or controls. He's a dps drone with minimal tactical advantages (as I've constructed

   him). If you have super-Korean multitasking god-powers this story may be different, but these are 

   facts I've found work best for me. 

 

Evasion, Knockdown, Sleep, and Throwing Knives:

If you are soloing frequently I strongly advice getting a few abilities:

 

-- One of the Archery skills provides a knockdown effect for enemies that get to close. 

     Get it. It is one of the most useful means of trolling and crowd control available. Especially if you 

     like to get in close to your targets.

-- Sleep. One of your stealthy abilities causes sleep. Get it. It is not always useful, but in many 

     situations it will allow you to crowd control targets combined with the above skill.

-- Throwing Knives. This is really helpful. I really can't say enough about it. It lets you pick away at

    barriers or guard without having to give up one of your high damage shots. It also has a short 

    cool down. Its situational use is only surpassed by Evasion.

-- Evasion is another one of your really amazing abilities. Do NOT get the upgrade, however. 

    Evasion will let you dodge out of most problem-situations. It also allows you to leap distances 

     jumping normally would not allow, but you could in real life. The more you use it the more 

     you discover how much better it makes everything about the game. Best of all, it comes with a 

     low cooldown. 

    The only problem with Evasion is the upgrade. Besides pooping copies of yourself as you evade

    around the battlefield they don't do anything, completely destroying immersion, the clones do

    absolutely nothing. I have never once seen an enemy disregard me for those and they cause lag

    in some situations; as if the game is trying to decide if you are you or the clone. Avoid getting

    the second skill and you will not be disappointed. 

 

You're a sniper. Remember that:

Games have disregarded the reality of archery for as long as any of us have been alive. In one way 

or another no game gets Archery realistic. Having a giant shaft of wood impaled into you is not 

pleasant. It's debilitating. I once had a wooden arrow shatter as I was firing it in an archery class. 

The splinters that went into my arm firmly convinced me in no way do people making movies or 

games understand the reality of what an arrow in you actually feels like or does to you. 

 

However, making Archery be like real life would require an upgrade in the awareness of practically 

everyone. It is like fighting for civil liberties or having an avatar that moves like a woman as a 

woman. You can ask for it, but you won't get it until more women are making games. Same sort 

of issue. 

 

That said, a few basic realities of Archery do apply. Keep at Ranged. The developers seemed to 

really want that to be part of the 'feel' of their game. All of your benefits flag on when you stay at

a good distance from your target. In many cases lesser enemies will die instantly from one of your 

archer abilities using this. This is vastly true of Long Shot, which really does live to its name. You 

can shoot triple the range of AI engagement with this for nearly the entirety of a clothy-enemy's 

health. The shot also pierces and if it kills an enemy will go on to kill strike others, if you've 

specialized for that.

Draw Shot is your, "I want to feel awesome," god-powers ability. It won't kill everything, but if it 

doesn't take out 1/3s of the enemy's health bar you need to upgrade your weapon. 

 

Enemies which will consistently give you trouble:

Despair Demons

Pride Demons

 

Red Templar (with shields) - occasionally

 

Spiders

 

 

Final Thoughts: 

Archery works just fine, but finding the things to make it work require knowing where they are

in the game ahead of time. 

[teks]

About archery and realism as far as DPS.

If archery was ever as deadly as a melee weapon, there would be no recorded use of melee weapons ever. No one would ever, ever take up a sword or a spear when they could kill just as effectively, with less training, from a distance. While we could sit all day debating why, it doesn't matter because we know that melee weapons were a dominant force alongside the bow, which means that defenses against bows must have been efective. Therefore, having arrows do less DPS then a melee weapon is realistic.

 

To defend your professional opinion. It is not that bows are misrepresented. Its that everything else is.

• The complex composite armors that cost more then a house which were used alongside the late arrows are represented by cheap single-layers of plate in pathetic hollywood tests claiming to be definitive proof.
• Amost all fighting styles are grossly misrepresented in their technique for example: greatswords were held like a staff, not with two hands on the hilt and vikings guided their swords along their shields).
• The different era's of armors and weapons are terribly mismatched AKA look what a 13th century arrow does to 8th century armor. Wow this must be proof that armor was useless, and people only wore it because they were stupid.

In contrast there is a very deep understanding of the history and effectiveness of bows. There are definately periods in history where a new development in the bow led to a mismatch in the effectiveness of armor, but these were exceptions and not the rule. There are also horse archers, who lie in a whole different realm of badassery.

 

aaanyway....

 

I love varric. I don't feel like bianca holds up in DPS, but this isn't a big deal because its so customizable. Its easy to craft her with a ridiculous critical hit chance for example, and combine this with the rogue skill that adds stamina with every crit. I feel that the right archery tree with the exploding arrow is a better choice for players who do not wish to micromanage varric. Its not as effective, but the AI uses it well on its own. Exploding arrows plus acid is awesome.

[Selea]

Not to break your rant but Archers are low on damage only in the very beginning (already when you reach Haven things start to change). When you take a spec then Archers become the 2nd most powerful class damage wise by far. An Assassin archer can kill targets so fast that your other party members cannot either cope with it and they seem to run from one place to another. It's almost hilarious, seriously.

I think that the worst thing you can do in DA:I is to judge the DPS of a class from the beginning as if you do you practically think the two most damaging builds the ones that sucks the most (DW rogue and Archer rogue), one for survivability and the other because you think you just do pew pew all the time with no much worth.

Usually the stronger a build is the more it takes to get to the right potential. This is true almost universally in all RPGs, apart some rare exceptions. 

P.S: Btw the same is true also for Varric. When he access the Artificer spec and so he can use a certain passive there then he becomes a monster if you build your party right. Yes, he becomes even more powerful than Sera, that's difficult in itself.

[Molohk]

I really don't feel there's that generalized negative feeling towards archery rogues in DA:I. Most people have either Varric or Sera in their party, and not just for lock picking. One of the most viewed solo gameplay videos is an archer vs dragon vid.

 

Varric sometimes may seen subpar not because of Bianca, but because Tempest and Assassination specializations with too evident benefits. But Varric's support value is under simply awesome.

 

I think you're missing the point of all weapons being unrealistically represented in regard of potential damage. It's also unrealistic that you have to repeatedly stab with daggers a cloth wearing mage before he dies, or strike them several times with a greataxe, or that someone can keep fighting after being engulfed in a firewall. If you wanted to be realistic, most weapons would one-shot most enemies. You can't really compare a real life weapon to a video game weapon, whether it is a sword, dagger, axe or bow.

 

And about gear, I found pretty decent Tier 3 bow schematics as random drops around the world, perhaps not the best, but enough. I do agree with you that upgrading Bianca is extremely annoying though.

[Hydwn]

Bookmarking this for my fourth planned playthrough (Dalish Archer).  Thank you

[Gaz83]

Archery is very powerful mid to late game. The bows themselves do great damage, and the skills are some of the most potent in the game. 

 

It also works perfectly with all three specialisations. Can't really say that about many other starting classes.

[EngineerEd]

Misconceptions:

1. "The Archery Rogue does terrible damage." 

 

This is a misconception?

 

I think it's pretty well agreed upon that archer rogue is stronger in DA:I than ever before (in DA:O, DA:A, or DA2). If counting uptime (melee characters having to move to hit targets who jump around) a lot of us agree that a properly min-maxed archer has the highest sustained DPS. 

 

Even not counting uptime, an archer's single target DPS is second only to DW Rogue, and easily beats any mage or warrior, even 2h Reaver.

 

 

Also, Varric is probably weakest at the Haven battle, since you have to scrounge for Bianca upgrades. After you get to Skyhold, Bonny Sims, the merchant in Skyhold, will sell you Bianca upgrades/schematics which to some degree scale to your level in the game. First thing I did was buy him Bianca Arms 2 Schematic, crafted with whatever tier 2 metal I could find (Paragon's Luster), and immediately at level 11-12 Bianca's DPS was already slightly above any non-runed longbow I found in the game at that level range.

[Zombie Chow]

I'm asking for advice please as I was wondering very similar to this.

 

I've started a Human Rogue Archer, basically just got to Skyhold at level 8 on Hard.  Because of all the talk on DW Rogues, I was thinking of getting a specialization (probably Assassin) then re-spec the whole character to DW.

 

So my question is, should I go from Archer to DW Assassin?  Or because an Archer Assassin?  Or another spec?

 

(My main toon is a KE, so I admit I never learned how to play DAI properly.)

[Selea]

I'm asking for advice please as I was wondering very similar to this.

 

I've started a Human Rogue Archer, basically just got to Skyhold at level 8 on Hard.  Because of all the talk on DW Rogues, I was thinking of getting a specialization (probably Assassin) then re-spec the whole character to DW.

 

So my question is, should I go from Archer to DW Assassin?  Or because an Archer Assassin?  Or another spec?

 

(My main toon is a KE, so I admit I never learned how to play DAI properly.)

 

It depends. If you like the playstyle of the archer then stick to it, as Assassin Archer is very powerful (insanely so) and Assassin is probably the best spec for Archer for the PC. However if you like more to go up close you can switch to DW and do even more burst damage against single targets. There's a caveat, however: DW is surely more difficult to play properly.

[teks]

DW is definately harder to play, but its so insanely fun. Its hard to say that one is better then the other though.

With DW rogue, I perfer tempest. Tempest gives survivability options the assassin doesn't gain, and solves some of the problems that leave other rogues between a rock and a hard place. Like...

Oh my a giant critter with AOE damage, best break open my ice salve. 85% damage reduction, getting hit freezes the enemy and my breaker skills all proc shatter. Afterwards I'll chug a lightning potion, casually move to the flank and stealth strike to reduce my cooldowns so I can repeat the process.

 

The assassin probably does more damage, but downing a fire salve allows me to spam stealth strike 5 times at one target. Knockdown-locking him in the process. If I used another salve before I could spam it 7 times.

 

I don't wanna get into a debate about which spec is better for any style. They are all good for both melee and ranged, and both melee and ranged are awesome.