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Did DAI overwrite DAO endings?


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#1
Guest_starlitegirl_*

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Endings pulled from wikia:

 

A deal was made with Kolgrim

Attempts to verify Brother Genitivi's claims, however, proved impossible. Agents of the Chantry sent into the mountains found little more than empty ruins. There were no cultists, and more importantly, no Sacred Ashes. Several years later, Genitivi's research was declared fiction and his work discredited. He killed himself not long afterwards."
 

So wouldn't that mean no pilgrimages at haven or was this a mysterious other path/pilgrimage to escape that was unknown?

 

No deal made with demon

Connor was sent off to study at the Circle, and considering his earlier experiences, he excelled in his training and easily passed the Harrowing to become a full mage. At his father's urging, Connor accepted a position in Tevinter to undertake formal study of the Fade.
 

Connor never mentions any position in Tevinter studying of the fade. He was just living in the circle and a complete mess of a human being. Honestly who knew it would turn out best if you just killed the kid?

 

Redcliffe was abandoned

Arl Eamon eventually returned to Redcliffe, beginning the long task of rebuilding. The village was a ruin, however, and rumors that it was haunted kept people from returning in numbers. The castle became near-empty, with only a handful of soldiers to man it. Redcliffe itself dwindled in importance.
 

Just did an abandoned run and it was exactly the same. I guess it has yet to dwindle in importance or perhaps that was only for a few years? But the castle was not near empty as best as I could tell in the mage side of things. And recliffe looked exactly the same.



#2
errantknight

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The end slides are rumors, not fact. All they really do is give you an impression of whether what you did might be a good thing or a bad thing, although there's some truth to the mix, like the warden's disappearance. Future writers aren't bound by the slides at all.
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#3
Eveangaline

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Wait where do you meet conner?


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#4
Lukas Trevelyan

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Wait where do you meet conner?

Redcliffe, by the docks. It has to be before you finish either In Hushed Whisper or Champion Of The Just though.



#5
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Connor also makes a half showing in the mage quest. I've never seen him but there is some burst of fire in the castle during that quest in one of the rooms and there's a few lines.



#6
DracoAngel

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Just like with the slides concerning Cullen (which we know were COMPLETELY off), all slides were rumors. At least that was Bioware's answer to all the changes from the end slides



#7
Mr.House

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DA2 did this crap waaaay before DAI.


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#8
DarkSpiral

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Epilogue slide are to be taken with a grain of salt.  Including the ones in this game.



#9
Chaos17

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A deal was made with Kolgrim : in DAI, you've the mission to invetigate those ruins but you not find the Sacred urn and Genitivi isn't mentionned.

No deal made with demon : my Connor was burdenned by the guild of DAO but he never mentionned being to the Circle (I think?)

Redcliffe was abandoned : didn't tried it.

 

But yeah, it's sad that Bioware kinda nullifed these endings by saying there're just rumors.

Many people made multiple playthroughs to get those different sliders endings because they though they will matter in the futur.



#10
Guest_starlitegirl_*

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But yeah, it's sad that Bioware kinda nullifed these endings by saying there're just rumors.

Many people made multiple playthroughs to get those different sliders endings because they though they will matter in the futur.

 

Which supports what plenty of people say which is that it doesn't matter. Nothing you do really matters in the grand scheme despite them insisting all your choices matter. Clearly they don't.


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#11
Kantr

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They said that back in DA2 that the ending was rumours. I think the problem is, while you can say it in the keep they didnt add it to the game.



#12
Nyaore

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Which supports what plenty of people say which is that it doesn't matter. Nothing you do really matters in the grand scheme despite them insisting all your choices matter. Clearly they don't.

That's always been the case though with their series games. There's one or two big choices you can make, but they usually don't take precedence or amount to more than a short cameo unless it's at the very end. BG2? Pretty much the only substantial choice I can think of is whether or not to become a god and that was at the very end. Working with the companions did net you different ending slides, but even your choices from BG1 to BG2 didn't really matter. You still started in that same dungeon with Minsc, Jaheira, and Imoen - and Imoen has been reclassed to a wizard as well. (Which you had an expressed choice to go through with in BG1, from what I recall.) Neverwinter Nights really didn't have any overt ground shaking choices either. ME? Do I really need to bring that one up? I do agree that they need to tailor back the rhetoric about our choices having immense impacts, because the fact of the matter is that outside of stand alone titles they never have, and never will. When writing for most series the choices you allow a player to make always end up restricting the writers more and more, which is why they are never earth shattering. In a contained game, and sometimes a series that the developers will put their feet down and refuse to make another game for after, it's much easier to let players do whatever the hell they want. The writers don't have to worry later down the line of choices like the Dark Ritual biting them in the ass, when for all intents and purposes one choice was clearly more interesting than the other for some people and locked out an interesting potential twist from the rest of the games.

Bioware has been trying to find the right balance for years. Do I think they have it? Not really, but then again there is NO way to do this without making someone unhappy.


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#13
HarbingerCollector

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Sorry for the necro.but i just saw this thread and i wanted to post my thoughts about it.

To my knownledge,Haven's fate doesn't matter in Inquisition (along with many other choices) and this bothers me.
If you sided with the Cultists,the chantry shouldn't be there at all.
If you sided with the Guardian and killed the high dragon,then yes.

  you sided with the cultists and somehow nobody knew about Haven? 
Too bad the chantry has rebuilt Haven anyway,regardless of what you do

Why we even make choices?

you cannot simply say "the endings are just rumors"
i didn't play DA:O for 80+ hours to get  "rumors" but to get "ha so that's what happened after the endings,X did Y,your actions led to that"
so it's a rumor everything that happened.

by that logic

it's a rumor that King Bhelen is a jerk but a good leader but Harrowmont a good man but a poor leader.
It's a rumor that The warden did x,y,z after the blight despite telling it in front of everyone.
It's a rumor that Hardened alistair is a good king.
It's a rumor that if you sided with the Circle the Tower is cleansed of all spirits.
It's a rumor that if you helped the Dalish they have respect of the humans.
It's a rumor that if you are a Dwarf and ask to Alistair his help for the Dwarves the darkspawn are pushed back to the dead trenches.

So why did i play the game?

Choices should matter



 



#14
Ariella

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Sorry for the necro.but i just saw this thread and i wanted to post my thoughts about it.
To my knownledge,Haven's fate doesn't matter in Inquisition (along with many other choices) and this bothers me.
If you sided with the Cultists,the chantry shouldn't be there at all.
If you sided with the Guardian and killed the high dragon,then yes.
  you sided with the cultists and somehow nobody knew about Haven? 
Too bad the chantry has rebuilt Haven anyway,regardless of what you do


Considering the fact that once people find out the hof used the Sacred Ashes to cure the arl, no one is going to go looking for the Temple?

Right.

You helped one Dalish clan, that doesn't translate into good will for all clans.

Bhelen and Harrowmont are a lot more complicated than good and bad. In Wicked Eyes a couple of dwarves are gossiping (if you sided with Branka and Bhelen is king) that he just cut off her supply of Casteless for new golems.

Both dwarves are just different kinds of lousy.

And how was Ferelden supposed to supply troops? The nation was recovering from a blight and a civil war, in which they'd lost a large number of military age subjects. Alistair couldn't have sent anyone even if he wanted to.

Your choices matter, thus the Keep. The slides however are rumor.

#15
HarbingerCollector

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The slides aren't rumors,they are supposed to tell what happens after the main game ends.
A cheap and effecient way to deal with choices.
It was the main reason for making them.
Otherwise they might just have spawned a few npcs to talk to after the end for their opinion on what it will happen
Declaring them rumors it's just as considering them invalid,as i did them for nothing,they're not true,so i did it for nothing.
If the cult is spared and the dragon is alive,brother genitivi will say about the ashes,but when somebody goes there they found nothing.
no traces of the ashes, the discovery is claimed to be legend and brother genitivi is scorned by the chantry and he end up killing himself.
They have no reason to rebuild an empty ruin.

After all who knows that the ashes waked up the Arl?
Only a mage,Bann Teagan and possibly Isolde, excluding the warden.
It's not that it was witnessed by all of ferelden.only a few people saw it,they could claim that it was just a myth and that Eamon was cured with some magic.

The ending slides told that Branka at first made many Golems,and that Bhelen gladly supplied her with a lot of dwarves(willingly dwarves or not) but at some point Branka refused to make more Golems for the king and sealed herself into Caridin's cross.Bhelen then banned the production of Golems.

IF you are dwarf(no matter if commoner or noble) you can Alistair\Anora to help by sending troops and in the ending slides it says that the dwarves and human forces combined pushed back the darkspawn line back to the dead trenches,reclaiming all lost thaigs in the way,and that "a dwarven warrior recovered an artifact from Bownammar  was welcomed by a cheering crowd outside the gates"
Presumely Aeducan Thaig was reclaimed,since it's the first thaig after Orzammar.
That means that Alistair\Anora has troops to spare.

One dalish clan,true,but that's the start of peace.

If choices matter,it should have an impact.at least

The boons also should matter,but they're stomped over.


 



#16
Ariella

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The slides aren't rumors,they are supposed to tell what happens after the main game ends.
A cheap and effecient way to deal with choices.
It was the main reason for making them.
Otherwise they might just have spawned a few npcs to talk to after the end for their opinion on what it will happen
Declaring them rumors it's just as considering them invalid,as i did them for nothing,they're not true,so i did it for nothing.
If the cult is spared and the dragon is alive,brother genitivi will say about the ashes,but when somebody goes there they found nothing.
no traces of the ashes, the discovery is claimed to be legend and brother genitivi is scorned by the chantry and he end up killing himself.
They have no reason to rebuild an empty ruin.
After all who knows that the ashes waked up the Arl?
Only a mage,Bann Teagan and possibly Isolde, excluding the warden.
It's not that it was witnessed by all of ferelden.only a few people saw it,they could claim that it was just a myth and that Eamon was cured with some magic.
The ending slides told that Branka at first made many Golems,and that Bhelen gladly supplied her with a lot of dwarves(willingly dwarves or not) but at some point Branka refused to make more Golems for the king and sealed herself into Caridin's cross.Bhelen then banned the production of Golems.
IF you are dwarf(no matter if commoner or noble) you can Alistair\Anora to help by sending troops and in the ending slides it says that the dwarves and human forces combined pushed back the darkspawn line back to the dead trenches,reclaiming all lost thaigs in the way,and that "a dwarven warrior recovered an artifact from Bownammar  was welcomed by a cheering crowd outside the gates"
Presumely Aeducan Thaig was reclaimed,since it's the first thaig after Orzammar.
That means that Alistair\Anora has troops to spare.
One dalish clan,true,but that's the start of peace.
If choices matter,it should have an impact.at least


Did you talk to Solas at all during DAI? There are numerous Dalish clans, every one of them having different ideas about humans. Just because one happened to.like you doesn't mean the rest will follow.

How would they get troops to send? You make no sense since during DAO proper Loghain even comments on how the losses at Ostagar are going to be a problem.

As for what saved the arl. You're kidding, right? Eamon's knights were running all over the place looking for the urn. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the castle knew.

It didn't overwrite DAO. Your choice of ruler in Ferelden is there. Ruler of Orzammar is still there. All those things exist, they just took a different turn.

And it didn't start with DAI. DA2 started it with what happened to Cullen. He wasn't knight commander of Kinloch Hold or crazy when we met up with him in DA2.

The boons were about three seconds of a how many hour game with how many choices?

#17
ElementalFury106

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Retcon. Expect the same for the epilogue slides for Inquisition in the games to follow.



#18
ndw542

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Why so much butthurt? Retcons are part of the normal course of business for game media. It's not a Bioware-specific occurrence; they just tend to get hammered for it more than other developers because they try to incorporate player choices rather than simply imposing canon outcomes.

Sure, sometimes we'll get total turds like the ME3 ending, but it is what it is. Devs can't please everyone, so they do the best they can given the available time and resources to develop selected past events into further interesting plot threads. The product would suffer if they devoted the kind of resources to micromanaging continuity in every facet the way some people seem to expect.

#19
Chiramu

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Connor also makes a half showing in the mage quest. I've never seen him but there is some burst of fire in the castle during that quest in one of the rooms and there's a few lines.

 

That broken quest that plays when you have entered the empty corridor...



#20
thats1evildude

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Playing Dragon Age means ultimately reconciling with the fact that although you can change certain things about the storyline, you cannot alter the overall story Bioware wishes to tell. In this case, Bioware decided that Haven is always re-discovered by the Chantry.



#21
HarbingerCollector

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Why so much butthurt? Retcons are part of the normal course of business for game media. It's not a Bioware-specific occurrence; they just tend to get hammered for it more than other developers because they try to incorporate player choices rather than simply imposing canon outcomes.

Sure, sometimes we'll get total turds like the ME3 ending, but it is what it is. Devs can't please everyone, so they do the best they can given the available time and resources to develop selected past events into further interesting plot threads. The product would suffer if they devoted the kind of resources to micromanaging continuity in every facet the way some people seem to expect.

Normal to throw away your choices?
That's the real problem.
If they cared to give a good explanation i wouldn't care,but they didn't.It just happens.
Retcons are good only in extremely little quantities and if the subject isn't well known enough.
Endings gave us what happened The Chantry went there,found nothing,and came back.
I don't see the Dalish elves rebuild their ruins because someone claims to have found a relic when in reality there's nothing.

 

Did you talk to Solas at all during DAI? There are numerous Dalish clans, every one of them having different ideas about humans. Just because one happened to.like you doesn't mean the rest will follow.

How would they get troops to send? You make no sense since during DAO proper Loghain even comments on how the losses at Ostagar are going to be a problem.

As for what saved the arl. You're kidding, right? Eamon's knights were running all over the place looking for the urn. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the castle knew.

It didn't overwrite DAO. Your choice of ruler in Ferelden is there. Ruler of Orzammar is still there. All those things exist, they just took a different turn.

And it didn't start with DAI. DA2 started it with what happened to Cullen. He wasn't knight commander of Kinloch Hold or crazy when we met up with him in DA2.

The boons were about three seconds of a how many hour game with how many choices?

Solas isn't the voice of all Dalish clans.
He can give his own opinion on the subject.
Even if not all the clans liked humans,one of their kind they'll warm up a bit because they fought to preserve the land from the Blight.
They send it,even Alistair\Anora says it.The king if he wants to send troops,he can,that's what the Teryn Cousland says at the beginning.
Loghain says that the human army alone wasn't enough to fight the blight.It needed to be at least 3 times the number to even hope to defeat it.
After the Blight the human army can restore order easily and send help.
Also because the Dwarves helped greatly in the blight,and suffered in silence for centuries.
Alistair feels that since the dwarves risked their *** and last city to help the surface against the blight he can spare a bit of his army to help the dwarves.

Hello? you know what happened to Redcliffe Castle? the demon stuff that wiped out the entire castle stuff?The reason why they went to search the urn?
it wasn't repopulated until the Arl waked up
Also the knights were looking for a legend.Nobody knew that the ashes were real until that moment.It was always dismissed as a legend.

Really? what's the difference in Inquisition if you choose Bhelen\Harrowmont,There's an impact on the game?
with "Impact" i mean something meaningful aside from a codex entry or a letter.

What if the Warden became King with Anora? same as Queen Anora rules alone.warden isn't even called King.
What if Anora ruled alone? just some dialogue
what if Alistair ruled with Anora? just some dialogue
What if Alistair ruled with a Warden Queen? just some dialogue with a throwaway mention

Thank you for having remember me about Cullen in DA2
he wasn't but a stupid retcon because the fangirls fawed over him.
same reason for his presence in Inquisition
 

The boons are supposed to be bonus stuff exclusive to origin\race,and many should matter because it isn't just a random thing (you got 40 sovereigns,congrats),for example ask for lands if you're a Dalish,to choose who is the bann if you're a city elf (that potentially carries a lot weight),ask for human help if you're a dwarf,ask for circle indipendence,ect ect.

Too bad the keep and the game "forgot" to implement them.

 

Retcon. Expect the same for the epilogue slides for Inquisition in the games to follow.

Don't worry,i've stopped taking seriously these games since DA:Awakening

 

 

thats1evildude

Playing Dragon Age means ultimately reconciling with the fact that although you can change certain things about the storyline, you cannot alter the overall story Bioware wishes to tell. In this case, Bioware decided that Haven is always re-discovered by the Chantry.

Then why have the choice.If you plan to use an existing story\place\character which is already established by the player's actions,move to another place.

Haven has the potential to have the dragon cult still alive,but for some reason they said
"nope,they aren't there anymore,the chantry has rebuilt this place that has no value"
The chantry doesn't care about ruins if they are worthless.
Without the ashes,Haven is just another forgotten hole in the middle of nowhere

 



#22
Patchwork

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I know DA2 got rid of the Free Circle and Hinterlands For The Dalish boons but have we heard anything about the other ones like Teryn of Gwaren and Alienage Bann?



#23
Arisugawa

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From Capone666's interview with David Gaider:

 

Well, speaking to that Age of Ultron meet up where everyone's there, the use of epilogue in Dragon Age: Origins, when was that - because to me, what you were describing there is kind of an example of the epilogue. That did that for me. When did that come into play and how do you feel about that kind of mechanism in terms of storytelling?

 

Well, the Dragon Age: Origins epilogue existed because initially I don't know that we were certain we would get a second game. Ideally, we were hoping that we would put out Dragon Age: Origins and it would be successful. We didn't know. So, the epilogue came late in the game, and it was something we had done previously. At the time it was the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. And we had the epilogue slides at the end of Baldur's Gate, so that seemed like an appropriate thing. And what happened to these characters? Because we'd also cut so many things, there was a lot threads left were dangling. So it was like, oh, it'd be kind of neat if we had, you know, at the end of a movie where as the credits are going on you can see, oh, so and so went on to go to college, and then robbed a bank, and, oh, neat. So, to tie up those threads and give the players sense of how this plot that they had spent so much time with, how it had continued on so they could imagine it in their head.

I think ultimately I came to regret exactly how we had done that. Because the epilogues were put together very quickly and some of them cast so far into the future that, okay, now we are doing the sequel and it takes place two years into the future or whatever. And it's like, we're trying to have a plot and we're trying to have some call backs, yet there are things that were forecast that went so far ahead that now we're contradicting it. Can we honor those all? Here we have a plot which works in every facet expect for this one epilogue slide. And it's like, god dammit, past Dave! Why did you write that?

 

What was one that was too far reaching?

 

Oh, there were some like with, say Cullen that talked about his career progression, and how he eventually years later would become Knight Commander or something. I don't even remember the exact process. Some of them talked about Orzammar years and years into the future and their society. And you're like, oh, wow, that's a giant check to write. Especially, if you are then asked later, now pick up the plot and have some tie backs. And you're like, um, okay. You're sitting there and you're laying out all the epilogue slides in front of you and you're figuring, how do I honor every single one of these? Wow. I didn't think that through at the time.

We're getting a little better at that. I think the ultimate lesson was that we have to be a little bit more careful. What we intended with the epilogue slides was while they did tie things up, they're meant to remain as subjective as everything else. A lot of it talks about this understood or it's heard. There was a time when the origin story had a historical framing. It was being told as a story in the distance past by an old woman that you initially would have thought was Flemeth and at the end you realize is Morrigan many, many years later.

So the epilogue slides were intended as a, from what we know of this story this is what happened to these people. And then that got cut, which is good. I'm glad it did because I really didn't like that. But that was how it happened, and at the time the idea that maybe Dragon Age: Origins was going to have to live on its own as its own game. Like, Jade Empire never got a sequel. So at the time it didn't seem so unrealistic to consider the fact that this might be our only shot at this one particular story. So it seemed fine.

So, then Dragon Age: Origins went out, and it was a big hit. But that wasn't a guaranteed thing in our heads at the time. There were some people who thought that traditional fantasy wouldn't really catch on. I mean, this was – was this before the Lord of the Rings movies? Before or maybe around the same time. But before Lord of the Rings came out, I don't think the idea that traditional fantasy could have commercial weight was really a thing.

It's hard in my head to take all that out and put myself back in those shoes. It's like putting gay romances into the game. There was a time when that was, you wouldn't even conceive of that. Even if you personally supported it, you just wouldn't do it because it wasn't done. It's hard to remember what your mindset was that long ago.



#24
Korva

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Eh, I'm not impressed with that reasoning. They could have set the sequels further in the future, or in a different corner of Thedas, either way it would have had all-new characters and not have messed with established statements from the first game. It's not like I like or even remember most of the epilogue slides, it's just a matter of principle that retcons are BS and no part of a game should be thrown out willy-nilly years after the fact.

 

Inquisition's epilogue is much more vague, though, so at least this is one area where they probably won't repeat the same mistakes.



#25
In Exile

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The slides aren't rumors,they are supposed to tell what happens after the main game ends.
A cheap and effecient way to deal with choices.
It was the main reason for making them.
Otherwise they might just have spawned a few npcs to talk to after the end for their opinion on what it will happen
Declaring them rumors it's just as considering them invalid,as i did them for nothing,they're not true,so i did it for nothing.
If the cult is spared and the dragon is alive,brother genitivi will say about the ashes,but when somebody goes there they found nothing.
no traces of the ashes, the discovery is claimed to be legend and brother genitivi is scorned by the chantry and he end up killing himself.
They have no reason to rebuild an empty ruin.

After all who knows that the ashes waked up the Arl?
Only a mage,Bann Teagan and possibly Isolde, excluding the warden.
It's not that it was witnessed by all of ferelden.only a few people saw it,they could claim that it was just a myth and that Eamon was cured with some magic.

The ending slides told that Branka at first made many Golems,and that Bhelen gladly supplied her with a lot of dwarves(willingly dwarves or not) but at some point Branka refused to make more Golems for the king and sealed herself into Caridin's cross.Bhelen then banned the production of Golems.

IF you are dwarf(no matter if commoner or noble) you can Alistair\Anora to help by sending troops and in the ending slides it says that the dwarves and human forces combined pushed back the darkspawn line back to the dead trenches,reclaiming all lost thaigs in the way,and that "a dwarven warrior recovered an artifact from Bownammar  was welcomed by a cheering crowd outside the gates"
Presumely Aeducan Thaig was reclaimed,since it's the first thaig after Orzammar.
That means that Alistair\Anora has troops to spare.

One dalish clan,true,but that's the start of peace.

If choices matter,it should have an impact.at least

The boons also should matter,but they're stomped over.


 

 

The slides were written when Bioware wasn't sure DA was going to be a series, and wanted closure. But they (wisely) didn't allow their setting killing epilogues to actually take effect when sequels were greenlight.