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Is the Game of Thrones influence gone from Dragon Age now?


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#101
Aurok

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The influence of ASoIaF is far more obvious in Origins than it is in The Witcher. It's not even close.

 

There are a whole bunch of direct analogues between the first two: Blight / Grey Wardens, struggles for the prematurely-vacated throne, politicking between the noble families, dragons returning to the world, the mabari is basically your direwolf...

 

The similarities with The Witcher basically amount to 'they're both gritty'. The main theme in The Witcher (certainly the first game) is racism, which I can't really think of as being a big deal in ASoIaF at all.

 

They're all influenced by Tolkien to an extent too ofc, but then virtually the whole genre is.


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#102
Giantdeathrobot

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A Song of Ice and Fire has never been low fantasy, honestly, and veers more towards High as the books go and magic comes back.

 

Tameable dragons. Elves. Giants. Evil ice elves. Zombies. Prophecies are dime a dozen. Weird seasons are confirmed to be magic. Ambiguously magical comets. The magical spells on buildings like Storm's End and the Wall. Mystical face-changing assassins. Several different schools of magic, including Valyrian candles, blood magic, Rhonyar water magic, Warlocks of Quarth, Asshai shadowbinding, and whatever Thoros of Myr and Moqorro draw their powers from. Magic swords. Alchemical fire. Skinchangers. Whatever Bloodraven is up to. The setting has a ton of magic, the only difference is that it's less ''in your face'' than in most.

 

Same with The Witcher, really. Dragons. Monsters dime a dozen. Prophecies. Teleportation. Golems. Massive firestorms. Magical potions. Curses. Time travel. Magically enhanced superhumans. Ghosts. The Wild Hunt. Elves. Dwarves. Magic is also very prevalent in the setting.

 

The major difference is that both The Witcher and ASoIaF spend more time on the political side of things than Dragon Age does, and even then The Witcher is pretty always the same story with the King du jour being a complete ******* who catches Geralt in his politics.

 

Thus I don't feel that Inquisition is a major shift. It is lighter than Origins and 2? Yes, it is. But I don,t think the series has changed genre or anything. Dragon Age was high(ish) fantasy from the very start as far as I'm concerned. Hell, the game opens with telling you how very powerful Mages sacrificed a thousand slaves to assault the heavens and, by their hubris, got cast down by the Maker and turned into genocidal monsters. That's not exactly low fantasy stuff folks.


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#103
Darkly Tranquil

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DA2 was the closest we've gotten to a dark fantasy and that was generally not well received.


To be fair, DA2's poor reception had nothing much to do with it's dark content and everything to do with it's repeated zones and parachuting waves of combatants.
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#104
Decepticon Leader Sully

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I alwats thaught it had more of a Forgotten Relems vibe to be honest.


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#105
Darkly Tranquil

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I alwats thaught it had more of a Forgotten Relems vibe to be honest.


Needs more Ravenloft.
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#106
Decepticon Leader Sully

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and Drow cant forget the Drow.



#107
cronshaw

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and Drow cant forget the Drow.


I was into Drow before it was cool
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#108
Guest_simfamUP_*

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Eh.

 

People like to let the Save the World frame blind them from some dark sh*t in Dragon Age.

 

Save the World is just a device, the plot can go lots of way with it.

 

Anyway.

 

Lelianna becoming a disfigured monster (more emotionally than physically)

Numerous hints to rape.

Killing children.

Red Wedding-like scene in Orlais.

Broodmothers.

Politics.

Lots of murder.

Attempt at genocide.

More murder.

Slavery.

 

Etc...

 

I think it's a good mix between ASOIAF, a touch of Dark Fantasy (which is horror btw. People getting their genres wrong lol) and some standard good ol' LOTR on the side.

 

I like to think of it as a slightly lighter version of the Witcher series. But that's just because BioWare doesn't want to delve into the darker parts of Thedas. If they wanted to, it could easily go up there with TW. I'm just talking about setting here, though.



#109
Ryzaki

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Two things that were very much ASOFAI which I particularly liked about DA:O:

1) The human/politicking ement. Yes, there was the big, bad archdemon. But there was also Loghain, the civil war, his supporters and his adversaries. The Landsmeet, which was primarily a game of politics and choices much more than that of swords and shields, is the finest example of adding a theme from ASOFAI.

2) The greyness of characters. There is few black and white, everybody has their motives, their reasons, their ambitions and their flaws. That's very much opposed to traditional phantasy where there is a good side and a bad side, but nothing inbetween. In DA:O, people can't even decide who is on which side.

 

DA:I has significantly less of both elements. There is a bit of politicking in the Wicked Hearts quest, but it is limited to merely that quest -- there is no builtup, no decisions outside of that quest have any impact and the consequences aren't felt throughout the game. The chantry as a political adversary -- they proclaimed the Inquisition as heretical, after all -- vanishes after act 1. There is no way you can screw up so a political enemy outside of the Inquisition gets chosen as Divine.

 

The adversaries are much more often cliche villains. Corypheus is obvious -- no redeeming quality about him, but even Samson or Erimonde show no redeeming features. Alexius has his son, but other than that, stock cliche evil and mad wizard. There is nothing good to be found about either the Venatori or the Red Templars.

 

So, yeah, I think some of the themes that made DA:O so great are missing.

 

You should've sided with the templars

 

Calpernia > Samson.


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#110
littlebrightpanda

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Two things that were very much ASOFAI which I particularly liked about DA:O:

1) The human/politicking ement. Yes, there was the big, bad archdemon. But there was also Loghain, the civil war, his supporters and his adversaries. The Landsmeet, which was primarily a game of politics and choices much more than that of swords and shields, is the finest example of adding a theme from ASOFAI.

2) The greyness of characters. There is few black and white, everybody has their motives, their reasons, their ambitions and their flaws. That's very much opposed to traditional phantasy where there is a good side and a bad side, but nothing inbetween. In DA:O, people can't even decide who is on which side.

 

DA:I has significantly less of both elements. There is a bit of politicking in the Wicked Hearts quest, but it is limited to merely that quest -- there is no builtup, no decisions outside of that quest have any impact and the consequences aren't felt throughout the game. The chantry as a political adversary -- they proclaimed the Inquisition as heretical, after all -- vanishes after act 1. There is no way you can screw up so a political enemy outside of the Inquisition gets chosen as Divine.

 

The adversaries are much more often cliche villains. Corypheus is obvious -- no redeeming quality about him, but even Samson or Erimonde show no redeeming features. Alexius has his son, but other than that, stock cliche evil and mad wizard. There is nothing good to be found about either the Venatori or the Red Templars.

 

So, yeah, I think some of the themes that made DA:O so great are missing.

 

Even Samson has redeeming qualities if you pay attention, trying to get the templars out of his perceived "enslavement to others". If you payed attention to the codex and conversations between characters, it does turn out that the characters are more gray than black and white. They believe they are doing the right thing, despite it featuring heavy risks (best example: Grey Wardens). Even Cory gets a bit more backstory if you side with the templars and as it turns out, he wants to correct a world he thinks has gone awry. 

 

If you also pay attention to the minor villains in the areas, you also get more of the politics side of things that culminates in the Halamshiral sequence. 

 

I honestly don't think that Dragon Age has lost it's edge, it's just more complex and subtle now because the lore is not easy to communicate and it's pretty difficult to remember everything. 


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#111
Gonzo

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Gaider himself said that the genesis of Dragon Age was him looking at Baldurs Gate and thinking about thing did not like and/or did not make sense.

#112
herkles

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Needs more Ravenloft.

nah, I say more eberron. Or if I was to go outside of DnD settings, Shadows of Esteren, but I doubt you heard of that setting, though it is awesome and the art is amazing see for yourself.

 

Spoiler

 

this looks pretty much like the fallow mire if it wasn't raining IMO

Spoiler

 

 

 

Even Samson has redeeming qualities if you pay attention, trying to get the templars out of his perceived "enslavement to others". If you payed attention to the codex and conversations between characters, it does turn out that the characters are more gray than black and white. They believe they are doing the right thing, despite it featuring heavy risks (best example: Grey Wardens). Even Cory gets a bit more backstory if you side with the templars and as it turns out, he wants to correct a world he thinks has gone awry. 

 

If you also pay attention to the minor villains in the areas, you also get more of the politics side of things that culminates in the Halamshiral sequence. 

 

I honestly don't think that Dragon Age has lost it's edge, it's just more complex and subtle now because the lore is not easy to communicate and it's pretty difficult to remember everything. 

agreed, I think the issue is more of a convaying it then anything else. The greyness is there in spades the problem IMO is just how they show and communicate it. It often was shown through letters, ie telling not showing, which is a problem IMO. they could have shown it a lot more, which would have made things better IMO.



#113
Beomer

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If anything it is becoming more like ASoIaF what with all the political crap and social issues that have become the series theme now. The mystery and magic and the secrets behind it all have taken a back seat. They still are the main cause behind the story, the ever hanging shadow over everything, but they have taken a back seat, just like the magic in ASoIaF is present and drives the story but does not dominate it.



#114
Beomer

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Double post, sorry.


Modifié par Beomer, 24 décembre 2014 - 06:43 .


#115
berrieh

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I'm a bit confused by some of the descriptions of high fantasy vs. low fantasy. As far as I've always known, the difference in high vs. low isn't darkness or lightness but the extent of magical involvement. So DA has always been fairly high fantasy (more so than ASOIAF at the beginning for sure, still slightly more than where we are with it now, mainly because of Mages, though ASOIAF becomes higher and higher fantasy as it goes on). I think there's plenty of high fantasy in the lore in DAO, and we see lots of it, though we see more of it in DAI just because of the Breach itself being so very magical. Still, any game with dragons, mages, the Fade, Darkspawn, demons, etc, is pretty  high fantasy. 

 

As to whether DAI is less dark. Maybe it's less personally dark. You certainly can't be as vividly and openly dark as a PC as you could in DAO (this makes sense to me since you're not a lone wolf character, like the first 2 games, but a leader, trying to build an organization and some kind of consensus, not a fugitive Warden who is allowed to do whatever she wants to stop the Blight). And less bad stuff happens to you than some origins (this varies by origin, though - all are bad, because all can die, but not as darkly bad, as say the City Elf female). There is plenty of infighting and minor villains still, but none get the attention of Loghain, so that alters things to seem less gray as well (neither Corypheus or his lieutenant can be made into anti-heroes from villains, really, the way Loghain can - though other characters in-game certainly can, and the balance of companions in DAI and DA2 are both far more dark than the ones in Origins, if you ask me). 

 

However, the events happening in Thedas are very dark and complex. Tevinter looms. Orlais shudders. The Wardens. Crestwood. The Templars. The freemen. There are a lot of people out there doing terrible things for their "greater good." And many of them have a point, despite their poor choices. To me, that is what makes something dark - if I can be brought to see the point of evil, it's purpose, and so forth. That and a lot of tragedy in the story, which DAI has in spades. 

 

In DAO, you were the scrappy underdog fugitive who could do what you liked as long as you dealt with the world's greatest thread.

In DA2, you were a lone wolf making a name for yourself.

In DAI, you are building an organization that will shape all of Thedas. 

 

Of course, these are different types of stories and the last, especially, while having the potential to have the most ramifications (and you can twist the world into bloody or corrupt things for the future, it seems) on Thedas as a whole has less potential for dark, personal stories. There are still loads of morally grey characters in the story (including a few companions, but also people like Alexius, the Wardens, Gaspard, Briala, Celene, Florianne, the Mayor in Crestwood, Leliana herself, the true Lord Seeker, a few of the rebel mages we meet, like Lynna). I don't see it as less grey, personally. There are still black characters like Loghain who fashion themselves grey. There are actually truly grey characters who are a mix of good and bad. There are good characters who do bad things. Whether they resonated with you personally more in DAO or DAI could be for many reasons, but I suspect it is the more personal story of DAO. In DAO, the grey characters are attacking you more directly, and you are more defenseless throughout. In DAI, they would be foolish to attack you directly in many circumstances, so only a few do, like Alexius. Honestly, I find Alexius a more convincing and sympathetic but scary grey villain than Loghain any day. 

 

I'd also argue DAI has more of the human, politicking element (some have argued it has less) - it's just that YOU'RE doing it so it seems less evil to the people playing than when Loghain does it. There's tons of politicking in this game, and you even get to truly engage in it, selfishly and ruthlessly, or for the greater good, or however you like. 


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#116
Maverick827

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There are two main ways people typically discern the highness or lowness of fantasy:

1. How much magic use there is and how powerful it is
2. The scope and themes of the plot

You can have a world with zero magic, but if your world is populated by larger-than-life characters doing larger-than-life things, your series will seem high fantasy. If you took all of the magic out of, say, R.A. Salvador's Forgotten Realms work, it would still be pretty high fantasy just for the exhaustingly elaborate fight scenes which are in no way realistic. The Lord of the Rings is actually a fairly low-magic setting, but it is still considered high fantasy because of the stark good vs evil themes and the end of the world, high-stakes narrative.

"Low fantasy" is essentially attemps to make "literary fantasy fiction" as opposed to "genre fantasy fiction." All of the tropes of high fantasy that often lend themselves to ridiculous situations/plot holes are abandoned to make the work seem more respectable.

#117
errantknight

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Each game has had a different focus. This one is political. That doesn't mean the game world has changed, just that you're unlikely to find something like the broodmother included in politcal jockeying for power. ;)

I do miss big scary quests like the deep roads in DA:O, but there wasn't really a reason to go venturing into such places. I think that in the next game, we may see more of that. The hints are of Tevinter which might include some pretty appalling use of blood magic, Kal Sharok, which would mean a return to the deep roads in a big way, and the wardens in the Anderfels, who seem like they might be a big bad of epic proportions.

#118
berrieh

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There are two main ways people typically discern the highness or lowness of fantasy:

1. How much magic use there is and how powerful it is
2. The scope and themes of the plot

You can have a world with zero magic, but if your world is populated by larger-than-life characters doing larger-than-life things, your series will seem high fantasy. If you took all of the magic out of, say, R.A. Salvador's Forgotten Realms work, it would still be pretty high fantasy just for the exhaustingly elaborate fight scenes which are in no way realistic. The Lord of the Rings is actually a fairly low-magic setting, but it is still considered high fantasy because of the stark good vs evil themes and the end of the world, high-stakes narrative.

"Low fantasy" is essentially attemps to make "literary fantasy fiction" as opposed to "genre fantasy fiction." All of the tropes of high fantasy that often lend themselves to ridiculous situations/plot holes are abandoned to make the work seem more respectable.

 

Ah, I have never really hear the terms low and high fantasy in regards to literature. I do have a concept of mainstream fantasy vs. genre fantasy, but LOTR/The Hobbit is as high fantasy as it gets by most standards listed in this thread (I disagree that it's a low magic setting - but we will deal with that later), and it's not a genre fantasy fiction. It is literary, mainstream. It has been made into movies. Students have read it in school. The work stands as entirely respectable. 

 

I was thinking of it in RPG (pen and paper) terms. In most handbooks, low and high fantasy settings are determined by the magic use in the DM's world or the magic use permitted in a particular campaign. 

 

Wouldn't your standard (removing the magic, but the fight scenes are still ridiculous) make an action movie or an action game a high fantasy setting though? That's what confuses me about the standard you set here. 

 

Also, about the good vs. evil theme - which DAO is as rife with as DAI is, if that's our standard, maybe even DAO is a more simplified good vs. evil story since the Archdemon is an even simpler evil than Cory - doesn't that make all kinds of stories high fantasy too? Or it has to be fantasy first, and then you look to see if it addresses good and evil (it....probably does) and how so. 

 

This I must address. LOTR - A low magic setting? There are magical rings and other copious magical items, Sauron himself, dragons that talk, the wraith world, prophecies, magical dreams, wights, supernatural beings, powerful wizards, etc. Now, the main character in both stories is essentially a Mundie (a mundane character) in some ways, but there's LOADS of magic. If I played a D&D style game in that world, it would be considered a fairly high magical setting. Not as high as some maybe, but certainly not low magical, with magic being particularly rare in the story itself. I mean the very world is basically magic. There are beings that naturally are immortal and so forth. 



#119
Maverick827

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This I must address. LOTR - A low magic setting? There are magical rings and other copious magical items, Sauron himself, dragons that talk, the wraith world, prophecies, magical dreams, wights, supernatural beings, powerful wizards, etc. Now, the main character in both stories is essentially a Mundie (a mundane character) in some ways, but there's LOADS of magic. If I played a D&D style game in that world, it would be considered a fairly high magical setting. 

 

I should clarify that I'm basing this off of the movies.  By the time I got into fantasy the first movie had already come out and, as seminal as the novels are in the world of fantasy, and as much as the movies left out, I still find it too difficult to conjure up the willpower to read them knowing pretty much the entire story already.  So with that said...

 

It's low magic in the sense that Gandalf isn't throwing around fireballs during battles, he can't just teleport to Mount Doom to destroy the ring, he doesn't conjure up ethereal familiars to fight by his side, he can't heal mortal wounds with the snap of his finger, he doesn't have magical barriers that deflect arrows, etc.

 

The effects of magic, in my opinion, are typically measured by how much of an effect they have on the lives of everyday people in the world.  Everyday life is barely if at all affected by magic in Middle Earth.  An example of the opposite would be something like a society that has magical toilets, has a magical mail system, no chairs because everyone can magically float, or something like that.  In the case of games, since they typically have combat, magic takes the place of various engines of war as well as medicine.

 

This is how I've always seen "high" vs "low" applied.  Some definitions say that it's solely about the plot and themes, and that magic has nothing to do with it, but I disagree, and I've never seen anyone actually believe that.



#120
Mecha Elf

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if there wasnt any nudity and sexual content i wouldve thought this game was rated for Teens. 



#121
aries1001

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I am a little sick of people claiming that Dragon Age is a Game of Thrones clone.  The two stories honestly feel very differently.

 

That having been said, you raise some valid points.  I enjoyed DAI for what it was, but the darker edge is definitely missing.  

 

Yes, you might be that. However, David Gaider, the Lead Writer, once said (way back in 2004 or 2005) that the story DA: Origins had been heavily inspired by the books by George R.R. Martin e.g. the A song Ice and Fire books as well as the first Witcher game. DA: I maybe not so much. 



#122
Ashagar

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I should clarify that I'm basing this off of the movies.  By the time I got into fantasy the first movie had already come out and, as seminal as the novels are in the world of fantasy, and as much as the movies left out, I still find it too difficult to conjure up the willpower to read them knowing pretty much the entire story already.  So with that said...

 

It's low magic in the sense that Gandalf isn't throwing around fireballs during battles, he can't just teleport to Mount Doom to destroy the ring, he doesn't conjure up ethereal familiars to fight by his side, he can't heal mortal wounds with the snap of his finger, he doesn't have magical barriers that deflect arrows, etc.

 

The effects of magic, in my opinion, are typically measured by how much of an effect they have on the lives of everyday people in the world.  Everyday life is barely if at all affected by magic in Middle Earth.  An example of the opposite would be something like a society that has magical toilets, has a magical mail system, no chairs because everyone can magically float, or something like that.  In the case of games, since they typically have combat, magic takes the place of various engines of war as well as medicine.

 

This is how I've always seen "high" vs "low" applied.  Some definitions say that it's solely about the plot and themes, and that magic has nothing to do with it, but I disagree, and I've never seen anyone actually believe that.

 

A pity there is a lot your missing by not reading the books not to mention your notice the changes they made to characters in the movies that often make then completely different people than what they were in the books.



#123
LinksOcarina

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High vs Low fantasy doesn't just equate magical effects, so you know.

 

Technically, the terms exist to differentiate the world itself, Low Fantasy is supposed to be analogous to the "real world"  a setting that does exist in real life. High Fantasy is the opposite, a "secondary world" where it has it's own rules and laws.

 

Ironically enough, Tolkien always saw the Lord of the Rings and his works as a fantastical history, its not allegorical to anything, but its a place that actually existed in the past, and hes telling you about the history of it. It's why he has languages that are never translated, or long, dreary chapters and appendices about minor characters introduced for two or three pages.

 

The term has morphed into a more divisive thing because we now see a fracturing of the genres. Unlike say, JRPG or WRPG, which are terrible terms to categorize anything, high and low fantasy do have some merit. Other than the "real" vs "secondary" world schemes, it also becomes literary devices in terms of how the story or world is set up. High Fantasy is always good vs evil type, save the world from the big bad stories. A bit of prophecy thrown in and maybe a hero's journey as well for it's narrative. It is also through one perspective, you see the heros side of things.

 

Low fantasy is socio-political most of the time, and has less loftier goals. Sometimes it can be a very simple fantastical element that is added to the real world. The movie Big is low fantasy, its a magical aspect in the real world that makes it a fantasy. In terms of the genre, even A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't fully represent this paradigm, but it is a better example because there is no singular hero, no real good or evil. Conan is much more closer, because it is a world that could have existed once. 

 

It is not just about the lack of magic, it's really about the motivations and whose the star.  Tabletop games like Ironclaw or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay tend to follow that low fantasy paradigm because you can be mundane careers, such as hunters and unskilled laborers, versus Pathfinder or Dungeons and Dragons where you are a highly skilled, specialized adventurer going on an epic quest.

 

This is much more complex than just sticking labels to it. By technicality, Thedas is a high fantasy world, although it has a lot of low-fantasy tendencies, much like Lord of the Rings. It is unfair to compare it to Ice and Fire, such influences go both ways in the end. Elder Scrolls as a series has some of those elements but focuses on the singular, power fantasy hero, in a way, much like The Witcher series or some other RPG's like the SMT games and Dark Souls


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#124
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I did get to behead Alexius. But it was spoiled because there wasn't enough blood splatter, nor was there a chopping block. Bioware. I am disappoint. And this seems to be the first of many. So remember those of you out there who think about being the enemy of the Herald of Andraste: it isn't worth losing your head over.

 

Now, onward to other things. I think the game has more in common with Skyrim than anything. I've been hunting great bear, closing rifts, mining and crafting armor, exploring, and crafting armor and weapons than anything else. Pretty much running half willy-nilly through different areas. Oh, and I killed the Fereldan Frostback. That was fun. I'm 67 hours into the game. Yes, I executed Alexius last night. This is going at a snail's pace. If they wanted me to save the world from Corypheus quickly they should have looked elsewhere. I'll probably clear out the dragons first, and we'll be totally over powered when we meet up with him. At least I hope we are.

 

Darker decisions? Well, people blindly join my cause because I am the Herald of Andraste, and I'm charismatic. They just don't realize that they'd be better off if Corypheus won in the end. Such has it has always played out in every epilogue for me.

 

And dark fantasy? I'm in the minority, but I liked DA2. It was simply the reused areas that were the problem. Had it not been for the obvious use of those I think a lot would have been overlooked. And the destruction of the Chantry by Anders really p*ssed off people. But hey, sh*t happens. The DLC was dark and very good as well.



#125
DarkSpiral

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Yes, you might be that. However, David Gaider, the Lead Writer, once said (way back in 2004 or 2005) that the story DA: Origins had been heavily inspired by the books by George R.R. Martin e.g. the A song Ice and Fire books as well as the first Witcher game. DA: I maybe not so much. 

 

Indeed.  And did I say it wasn't?  No, I did not.

 

I said I'm tired of people claiming the series is a clone of A Game of Thrones, which it isn't.