142 réponses à ce sujet

[hong]

My other issue is that Guard abilities and shields feel more gimmicky than old combat system. It's based on pressing buttons in the right combination: you see that enemy is taking a swing - press stonewall and after you receive blow hold auto-attack button, until you see that enemy is taking another swing. Keep repeating until enemy is dead. This gimmickness is causing another problem - AI can't handle it very well, so during harder fights, I'm forced to control tank all the time, unless I want all my potion to be consumed in matter of seconds.

If there's one thing that this game does well, it's tank. You just have to have the right loadout.
 

Instead of removing healing spells, they just could balance them. There are plenty of ways to balance them: mana cost, cooldown, casting time, their power, but instead they choose to call them potions and limit how many times you can use them.

The solution to your problem is not to rely on potions.

[UniformGreyColor]

IMHO, when fans start to want the same mechanics, story telling, role playing options and environments and push for that in new games, that's when things get really, really stale. The funny part about this is that I have heard from some of the really old school gamers that this game is actually quite similar to some games that were made 20+ years ago. The fact that it is coming back in style (hopefully) is a sign that the devs know what they are doing and know how to take an old thing, give it a twist, and for the most part people are loving it.

 

OT: I was a huge DA:O fan. And I personally didn't like the whole, drink a potion every 5 sec. There are sooo many games that don't have the need to heal in every battle 20 times and a lot of those games are regarded as pretty good. In fact I would wager that there are more games that are classics that do not have constant healing management than those that do. And I'm not guessing. Healing is great if it is given the right focus and put into proper perspective, but most of the time constant healing is just a snooze for most people.

[Aver88]

If you absolutely want to have healing magic, then sure, you could do that.

Isn't it great that DAI is flexible enough to accommodate multiple playstyles?

 

I mentioned earlier what is wrong about healing potions. First - they don't help with preventing resetting combat as Bioware claim, because you can have way to many potions and they are way more powerful than magic was  (There is no re-use for example).

 

Potion forces you to go back to the camp now and then to replenish potions and I really hate backtracking. 

 

I avoid using melee damage dealers because they get way more damage then other characters and it forces me to visit the camp more often (even more backtracking, yay!). I really loved melee fighters in previous games, but they are just way to annoying in DA:I.

 

As I said before. I agree that healing spells should have been balanced, but they shouldn't be removed. 

 

 

 

If there's one thing that this game does well, it's tank. You just have to have the right loadout.

 

Playing as a tank is fun. I agree with that. It's actually the only class that I had a fun with, but I still would like sometimes to take a control of my own character (mage) and do something, but then AI tank run around like an idiot and drink all my potions in matter of seconds.

[hong]

I mentioned earlier what is wrong about healing potions. First - they don't help with preventing resetting combat as Bioware claim, because you can have way to many potions and they are way more powerful than magic was  (There is no re-use for example).
 
Potion forces you to go back to the camp now and then to replenish potions and I really hate backtracking.

So don't use potions.
 

I avoid using melee damage dealers because they get way more damage then other characters and it forces me to visit the camp more often (even more backtracking, yay!).

Then you're not playing them right. Here is a thread that might help. Or if you're playing a DW rogue, here is a (rather ironically named) thread.
 

As I said before. I agree that healing spells should have been balanced, but they shouldn't be removed.

Healing spells are absolutely not necessary.

Playing as a tank is fun.

I'm not talking about playing a tank. I'm saying that the AI does very well at staying alive when tanking, provided you set it up right.

[Aver88]

So don't use potions.
 

Then you're not playing them right. Here is a thread that might help. Or if you're playing a DW rogue, here is a (rather ironically named) thread.
 

Healing spells are absolutely not necessary.

 

The thing is I don't play them. I only control one character at once, even tho I was control freak in DA:O and DAII controling the whole party at once, because it's way to annoying to control the whole party at once. When I control only rouge then I don't have a problem with avoiding damage, but when I control a rouge, then the most crucial team member, tank, is left without a brain. 

 

So don't use potions.

 

Perfect argument. Here is mine - don't use healing spells.

[hong]

The thing is I don't play them. I only control one character at once, even tho I was control freak in DA:O and DAII controling the whole party at once, because it's way to annoying to control the whole party at once. When I control only rouge then I don't have a problem with avoiding damage, but when I control a rouge, then the most crucial team member, tank, is left without a brain.

Here is a thread that might help.

(For an AI tank, disable Bodyguard and Charging Bull, and don't count on To The Death being up when you want it. Everything else still works.)

Perfect argument. Here is mine - don't use healing spells.

Indeed, I don't. I'm not having any problems either.

[UniformGreyColor]

I mentioned earlier what is wrong about healing potions. First - they don't help with preventing resetting combat as Bioware claim, because you can have way to many potions and they are way more powerful than magic was  (There is no re-use for example).

 

Potion forces you to go back to the camp now and then to replenish potions and I really hate backtracking. 

 

I avoid using melee damage dealers because they get way more damage then other characters and it forces me to visit the camp more often (even more backtracking, yay!). I really loved melee fighters in previous games, but they are just way to annoying in DA:I.

 

As I said before. I agree that healing spells should have been balanced, but they shouldn't be removed. 

 

 

 

 

Playing as a tank is fun. I agree with that. It's actually the only class that I had a fun with, but I still would like sometimes to take a control of my own character (mage) and do something, but then AI tank run around like an idiot and drink all my potions in matter of seconds. 

 

Lets back up a bit. What you are talking about is a hypothetical. Yes you can focus all your attention on only healing and be fine for the most part. But 1)You still have to find those potion recopies, 2) you are greatly limiting the scope of the many ways to play this game: like someone else said the way they play is by focusing more on Jar of Bees and not healing and that that was largely disregarded as an option for them. and 3) Why would you choose to focus on this particular area? Why not focus on how BW could do its RPing so much better and that they totally screwed op on the way the tactics work?

 

For me personally it feels like a lot of people got too emotionally attached to a particular game (pick one) and now they have to tell the whole community how dissatisfied they are that this game is not a carbon copy of their favorite game. But yeah, I understand that people find something they really like and want to relive that memory for the rest of their life, but things change and people need to move on.

[Jackal19851111]

I'm still using the standard 8 heals. And regen isn't exactly the same as healing. It's okay for handling pressure, but when you get hit with a spike for 90% of your health, regen isn't going to be very useful... unless you like kiting a lot.
 

 

Healing mist then (they aren't regen, AND they are group heals AND they resurrect your party members, you can effectively still carry 24 of them in addition to 12 potions making a total of 36 instant heals (more with belts even)

Also, in almost every situation where you can get hit with a high damage spike, each class has skills to avoid damage at any time:

 

Warriors -> Block, Combat roll

Rogues -> Stealth, Evade, Flank Attack with upgrade (For DW rogues)

Mages -> Fade Step, Barrier

 

The current system gets you to stay alive by avoiding damage instead of staying alive by taking damage and casting healing spells. I prefer it this way.

[hong]

Healing mist then (they aren't regen, AND they are group heals AND they resurrect your party members, you can effectively still carry 24 of them in addition to 12 potions making a total of 36 instant heals (more with belts even)
Also, in almost every situation where you can get hit with a high damage spike, each class has skills to avoid damage at any time:
 
Warriors -> Block, Combat roll
Rogues -> Stealth, Evade, Flank Attack with upgrade (For DW rogues)
Mages -> Fade Step, Barrier
 
The current system gets you to stay alive by avoiding damage instead of staying alive by taking damage and casting healing spells. I prefer it this way.

Yup. People just get so fixated on the holy trinity that they don't even realise there are other ways to do things. Personally I'd have gone even further and removed the tank/dps distinction as well... but that's an argument for another day.

[Vader20]

It's a new system.* You'll learn the ropes eventually. Once you get over the initial hurdle of unfamiliarity, a lot of the chore-ness goes away.
 

Yes, it's just you. Currently playing on Hard with a standard party consisting of Cass, Blackwall, one mage (I swap between Dorian and Solas based on my mood), and me, an archer assassin. Most fights, I never have, and have never had, a problem. Of course I'll eventually run out of potions, but that usually comes after a couple hours of roaming around.

On the Combat and Strategy board, you'll find the uber-l33t players talking about how they can solo dragons or how Nightmare is too easy. I am not one of them. However, I did make use of their knowledge to construct my party and tactics. You could do the same.


* Well, not that new, since it clearly existed in GW and other games before DAI.

Yes, I can do that, but only with me being a rift mage.... which I use for crowd control and I have a KE-Spirit mage in my party to compensate for the loss of healing. It's decent, but I still cannot fully adapt to this system.

[Aver88]

Lets back up a bit. What you are talking about is a hypothetical. Yes you can focus all your attention on only healing and be fine for the most part. But 1)You still have to find those potion recopies, 2) you are greatly limiting the scope of the many ways to play this game: like someone else said the way they play is by focusing more on Jar of Bees and not healing and that that was largely disregarded as an option for them. and 3) Why would you choose to focus on this particular area? Why not focus on how BW could do its RPing so much better and that they totally screwed op on the way the tactics work?

 

Same about healing magic:

1) You still have to unlock those spells. You even have to unlock specialization to unlock the best spells.

2) Then why people that didn't like healing spell won't do the same in DA:O and DAII? Don't focus on healing spells.

3) Why would you choose to focus on this particular area of spells? Use offensive spells. 

[BammBamm]

I mentioned earlier what is wrong about healing potions. First - they don't help with preventing resetting combat as Bioware claim, because you can have way to many potions and they are way more powerful than magic was  (There is no re-use for example).

 

Potion forces you to go back to the camp now and then to replenish potions and I really hate backtracking. 

 

I avoid using melee damage dealers because they get way more damage then other characters and it forces me to visit the camp more often (even more backtracking, yay!). I really loved melee fighters in previous games, but they are just way to annoying in DA:I.

 

As I said before. I agree that healing spells should have been balanced, but they shouldn't be removed. 

 

 

thats the illogical thing about it. playing on nightmare as a dual rogue and can clearly say, when you do it properly even than its not neccessary to go back to refill potions all the time. choose as a glass canon melee the right opponents (stay away from the front and aoe opponents in action) at the right time (cc'd enemies will not hurt you or have a barrier or stealth). with proper target selection, good tanking, timed damage avoiding skills you are not depending on potions, they are just there when things go wrong, hell i even dont use regeneration potions because the others make more sense. its just a matter to understand the system and most people that want healing spells cant get adapted to it and play it just totally wrong. so dont say the changes dont advance tactical combat when you are way more punished fighting sloppy

[hong]

Yes, I can do that, but only with me being a rift mage.... which I use for crowd control and I have a KE-Spirit mage in my party to compensate for the loss of healing. It's decent, but I still cannot fully adapt to this system.

Having 2 mages is like easy mode (in the sense of having a safety net, not as in roflstomping enemies). Once you've got a bit more experience, and you've set your tank up correctly, you can absolutely get by with just yourself. Then you can do crazy stuff with 2 dps, like take down a dragon in a minute.*


* The real pros take down a dragon in 20 seconds with one character, but they're off on another planet.

[Aver88]

thats the illogical thing about it. playing on nightmare as a dual rogue and can clearly say, when you do it properly even than its not neccessary to go back to refill potions all the time. choose as a glass canon melee the right opponents (stay away from the front and aoe opponents in action) at the right time (cc'd enemies will not hurt you or have a barrier or stealth). with proper target selection, good tanking, timed damage avoiding skills you are not depending on potions, they are just there when things go wrong, hell i even dont use regeneration potions because the others make more sense. its just a matter to understand the system and most people that want healing spells cant get adopted to it and play it just totally wrong. so dont say the changes dont advance tactical combat when you are way more punished fighting sloppy

 

As I said. I know how to play rouge without getting too much damage. The thing is I have to control him all the time. 

[Jackal19851111]

Having 2 mages is like easy mode (in the sense of having a safety net, not as in roflstomping enemies). Once you've got a bit more experience, and you've set your tank up correctly, you can absolutely get by with just yourself. Then you can do crazy stuff with 2 dps, like take down a dragon in a minute.*


* The real pros take down a dragon in 20 seconds with one character, but they're off on another planet.

 

You mean this?

 

Sure made my own DW rogue look sh-t to tell you the truth heh!

[UniformGreyColor]

Same about healing magic:

1) You still have to unlock those spells. You even have to unlock specialization to unlock best spells.

2) Then why people that didn't like healing spell won't do the same in DA:O and DAII? Don't focus on healing spells.

3) Why would you choose to focus on this particular area of spells? Use offensive spells. 

 

1) Finding a recipe to a particular potion in a game as big as DA:I is totally different then picking your choice of Ability/Specialization. You don't get to choose where you find the potion recipe and you do get to choose your spells/abilities. One is seen from the beginning and one is ideally kept a secret until you get it.

2) Its a perfectly viable option to choose to focus on healing or not in DA:I and that's my whole point.

3) Wow, you make it seem as though the choice is your to make and I don't really have an argument for that. I'd be inclined to agree. Sure coming from a min-max perspective there are fewer choices, but for the rest of the people playing the game it is really up to them how they want to do it. I'd love to hear if you disagree with this.

 

I don't have a problem one way or another how a game dev company does their game. If I like it I will play it if not I will not play it. There are a tone of different ways to make games and its actually really hard to predict how the public will receive your game in every aspect of it. It is the job of the consumer to decide if a particular game is worth their money to spend it to get a game.

[BammBamm]

As I said. I know how to play rouge without getting too much damage. The thing is I have to control him all the time. 

 

jupp give you that, the dump down of the tactical options and the mediocre ai is a bigger problem as the changes in the combat system. but i prefer to playing on high difficulty levels anyway, so babysitt your party is expected (but i have to admit the ai does a better job with guard as me^^ it just tanks often the wrong enemies ). i think the strengths of the new systems are shown mostly in higher difficulties, so maybe thats the reason many complain about (but in this case the whole "i have to go to the camp all the time" thing and "tactical cam is useless" doesnt fit, )

[hong]

You mean this?

 
Sure made my own DW rogue look sh-t to tell you the truth heh!

Haha. I was happy enough to get a 60000-point hit with a Mark of Death/Thousand Cuts combo (me plus Sera) earlier tonight.

[Aver88]

1) Finding a recipe to a particular potion in a game as big as DA:I is totally different then picking your choice of Ability/Specialization. You don't get to choose where you find the potion recipe and you do get to choose your spells/abilities. One is seen from the beginning and one is ideally kept a secret until you get it.

2) Its a perfectly viable option to choose to focus on healing or not in DA:I and that's my whole point.

3) Wow, you make it seem as though the choice is your to make and I don't really have an argument for that. I'd be inclined to agree. Sure coming from a min-max perspective there are fewer choices, but for the rest of the people playing the game it is really up to them how they want to do it. I'd love to hear if you disagree with this.

 

I don't have a problem one way or another how a game dev company does their game. If I like it I will play it if not I will not play it. There are a tone of different ways to make games and its actually really hard to predict how the public will receive your game in every aspect of it. It is the job of the consumer to decide if a particular game is worth their money to spend it to get a game.

 

1) I found both recipes way before I got to skyhold, so I don't think that it's that hard as you said. I'm pretty sure you get them earlier than you get specialization in previous games.

2) Isn't it viable option in DA:O and DAII to choose different types of magic? I'm pretty sure you can beat the game without healing spells.

3) Sorry, I misread your argument earlier. I thought you said why I focused on healing potions instead of focusing on offensive potions. Replying to your proper argument - I also mentioned in different topic that I'm really disappointed by lack of real tactics. For me combat in DA:I has multiple problems and healing is just one of them. I'm focusing on it, because this topic is about that. I was just surprised that devs explanation for removing healing spells was to prevent "resetting combat", because they gave us so many potion that it's easier than it was with spells, so I wanted to decided to discus about it.

[Aver88]

jupp give you that, the dump down of the tactical options and the mediocre ai is a bigger problem as the changes in the combat system. but i prefer to playing on high difficulty levels anyway, so babysitt your party is expected (but i have to admit the ai does a better job with guard as me^^ it just tanks often the wrong enemies ). i think the strengths of the new systems are shown mostly in higher difficulties, so maybe thats the reason many complain about (but in this case the whole "i have to go to the camp all the time" thing and tactical cam is useless doesnt fit, )

 

I also play on nightmare difficulty. With friendly fire turned on. I don't even find game hard. When I control tank and rest of team is dealing damage then game is very easy. I've tried to micromanage for first 20h, but this interface makes it extremely annoying, now I only micromanage during boss fights.  

 

The thing is that I belive game could be harder with healing spells instead of having gazillion potions. Healing spells use mana and have cooldown, if balanced properly they could work the same way as potions (if someone like system we have now) without forcing player to backtrack every now and then or even better (what I hope for). 

[UniformGreyColor]

1) I found both recipes way before I got to skyhold, so I don't think that it's that hard as you said. I'm pretty sure you get them earlier than you get specialization in previous games.

2) Isn't it viable option in DA:O and DAII to choose different types of magic? I'm pretty sure you can beat the game without healing spells.

3) Sorry, I misread your argument earlier. I thought you said why I focused on healing potions instead of focusing on offensive potions. Replying to your proper argument - I also mentioned in different topic that I'm really disappointed by lack of real tactics. For me combat in DA:I has multiple problems and healing is just one of them. I'm focusing on it, because this topic is about that. I was just surprised that devs explanation for removing healing spells was to prevent "resetting combat", because they gave us so many potion that it's easier than it was with spells, so I wanted to decided to discus about it.

 

I can't argue that you found the potions before Skyhold or not just like I can't argue that everyone will find them before Skyhold. So saying that what is true for your experience is true for everyone else is just plain silly. Healing was a cornerstone to DA:O. You can disagree if you wish but I think its pretty obvious. I say this knowing that the devs for this game specifically said that they wanted to do something different with healing for this game. Whether or not that is actually true is a matter of opinion at this point. And again, not everyone is going to find the potions you find at the same point in the main story line. Potions still cost resources and that is the key difference I will make on your argument that you can just "reset" combat.

 

I also play on nightmare difficulty. With friendly fire turned on. I don't even find game hard. When I control tank and rest of team is dealing damage then game is very easy. I've tried to micromanage for first 20h, but this interface makes it extremely annoying, now I only micromanage during boss fights.  

 

The thing is that I belive game could be harder with healing spells instead of having gazillion potions. Healing spells use mana and have cooldown, if balanced properly they could work the same way as potions (if someone like system we have now) without forcing player to backtrack every now and then or even better (what I hope for). 

 

If this is true you are playing a game that is too easy for you; unless you enjoy the other aspects of this game other than combat and you don't mind a challenge or not then I'm not really sure why you played this game. Do you just prefer to discuss its shortcomings at this point?

[Aver88]

I can't argue that you found the potions before Skyhold or not just like I can't argue that everyone will find them before Skyhold. So saying that what is true for your experience is true for everyone else is just plain silly. Healing was a cornerstone to DA:O. You can disagree if you wish but I think its pretty obvious. I say this knowing that the devs for this game specifically said that they wanted to do something different with healing for this game. Whether or not that is actually true is a matter of opinion at this point. And again, not everyone is going to find the potions you find at the same point in the main story line. Potions still cost resources and that is the key difference I will make on your argument that you can just "reset" combat.

Only some of potions cost you resources and resources are cheap anyway - you can buy elfroot for 20 gold. I don't know what to do with gold anyway. 

 

If this is true you are playing a game that is too easy for you; unless you enjoy the other aspects of this game other than combat and you don't mind a challenge or not then I'm not really sure why you played this game. Do you just prefer to discuss its shortcomings at this point?

 

I actually like game a lot, but not because of combat. I like characters, story, amount of content, locations. I like a lot of things and I only wish two things were better:

- Combat (as a whole: design, UI, AI, tactics, healing)

- Side quest (I wish they were more story driven)

 

If they would improve those two things then it could be my favorite RPG of all time. 

[UniformGreyColor]

Only some of potions cost you resources and resources are cheap anyway - you can buy elfroot for 20 gold. I don't know what to do with gold anyway. 

 

 

I actually like game a lot, but not because of combat. I like characters, story, amount of content, locations. I like a lot of things and I only wish two things were better:

- Combat (as a whole: design, UI, AI, tactics, healing)

- Side quest (I wish they were more story driven)

 

If they would improve those two things then it could be my favorite RPG of all time. 

 

LOL, I'm trying to sell elfroot at this point. That should tell you how much I like to explore. I have not finished the main story once yet. But yeah, elfroot is still a resource and that still needs to be accounted for.

 

(Good) Combat for me is just a byproduct of a good game for me. I enjoy a good story and having stuff to do in a game. I'm not that picky when it comes to combat because... reasons.

[SpiritWolf448]

Okay, let me ask here:

 

Was there any official, in-lore reason given why nearly all healing magic is suddenly gone from Thedas anywhere in the game? I didn't find anything... o_O?

[Aver88]

LOL, I'm trying to sell elfroot at this point. That should tell you how much I like to explore. I have not finished the main story once yet. But yeah, elfroot is still a resource and that still needs to be accounted for.

 

I love to explore too, but I can't stand picking up herbs anymore. Especially considering how cheap they are. 

 

 

Okay, let me ask here:

 

Was there any official, in-lore reason given why nearly all healing magic is suddenly gone from Thedas anywhere in the game? I didn't find anything... o_O?

 

I think that any explanation would sound ridiculous, so they preferred to not mention it at all.