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So the removal of controllable stat growth is the worst design choice for an RPG ever.


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#51
UniformGreyColor

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This so much. The SPECIAL system was great because you knew what each stat means; 5 Strength is average, 1 is wet noodle, 10 is Hercules level. Clear, concise, meaningful.

 

Dragon Age's, isn't. What's 40 Strength compared to 30? to 10? To 100? Does your character going from 15 Strength to 90 over the course of the game means he's now 6 times as strong? Apart from arbitrary benchmakrs from armor, it doesn,t actually mean anything.

 

Besides, all allocated stat builds ever do is pigeonhold you into a pattern. Stack one stat, maybe a second one, and you can't go wrong. That's frankly boring and utterly unconsequential to me. I'd rather pick between abilities and passives and whatnot.

 

The one way I agree with you is that I would have liked the +3 Cunning to actually amount to something as they get added up in this game. As it is If I have +24 Cunning that's only +12% Crit chance. Not very OP if you ask me. I would have liked passives and auto level up stats to amount to at least the same amount as gear. Overall though I think the stats do work and I enjoy customizing my gear greatly.



#52
Remmirath

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That's like saying a pirate should wear a mail suite because he felt it would protect him better against his victims. It just does not make sense for a mage to wear heavy armor unless that is his area of expertise.


The second part of what I said, this makes sense as a reply to. The first part, no. That has nothing to do with the level restrictions on items, which are by far the larger problem.

There are some legitimate reasons for armour restrictions between classes, but I'd much prefer it be done in a way that tells you what those are: for example, not being able to stealth in heavy armour (but still wear it), not being able to cast spells in things other than robes (assuming that's the logic behind mages not wearing armour -- otherwise, I see no reason a battlemage might not decide to wear armour), and armour other than heavy armour just offering less protection.

Weapon restrictions between classes makes much less sense, especially with some of the decisions they made. Bows, for example, make much more sense as a warrior weapon than as a rogue weapon, since bow use requires a good amount of stealth and isn't exactly great for sneaking around in the shadows. Bows for warriors and crossbows for rogues might've made some sense, or throwing knives or some such (it's also kind of annoying that warriors have no ranged capability, at all, and leaves me wondering how exactly my Dalish elf managed to be a hunter when she's apparently incapable of picking up a bow).

This so much. The SPECIAL system was great because you knew what each stat means; 5 Strength is average, 1 is wet noodle, 10 is Hercules level. Clear, concise, meaningful.

Dragon Age's, isn't. What's 40 Strength compared to 30? to 10? To 100? Does your character going from 15 Strength to 90 over the course of the game means he's now 6 times as strong? Apart from arbitrary benchmakrs from armor, it doesn,t actually mean anything.


That is a problem with the system, yes. It always has been. However, that's still the case, it's just that now you're getting almost all of that from your equipment and some from chosen abilities. This doesn't remove that problem.

Clearly defined, not-increasing ability scores are better, in my opinion. So is being able to assign your characters abilities during character creation.

Besides, all allocated stat builds ever do is pigeonhold you into a pattern. Stack one stat, maybe a second one, and you can't go wrong. That's frankly boring and utterly unconsequential to me. I'd rather pick between abilities and passives and whatnot.


That's partly your choice, and partly a problem of not enough points being available to distribute. Take, for example, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale versus Icewind Dale II and then versus Neverwinter Knights and Knights of the Old Republic. In the first two games, you're rolling for you stats, and can then redistribute them afterwards. It's entirely possible to come up with a wide variety of different builds. Want a clever, charismatic, but stupid and clumsy fighter? Sure. Want a fighter who's only good at being strong and tough? Also sure, and so forth. With Icewind Dale II there were enough points available that you could still do that, for the most part, although one typically had to sacrifice one stat if one wanted several high ones. In NWN and KotOR, there's no choice, and indeed not enough points available even to make a maximally effective character to begin with.

At this point, not being able to change them, we might as well not even have ability scores. I don't like that, but there it is. If every warrior and every rogue are always only going to have their slight starting boost plus whatever they get from their armour and abilities (which always goes to the same one or two stats), with the rest of the stats flatlined at 10, there's no point in even having them there. Part of the whole point of stats is to show what your character is like, rather they are intelligent or dim, wise or foolish, and so forth. Removing that choice removes the entire point of stats with regards to roleplaying, and does hurt it somewhat with regard to gameplay mechanics as well (although the whole item/ability point thing does mostly make up for it in terms of gameplay, I would still rather have other and more interesting abilities on items and such).
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#53
Zatche

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It seems a bit weird that you can control your stats with your equipment. I guess it's so you don't have respec to change it up a bit. Weird, but meh. Worst design decision ever in an RPG is a bit hyperbolic.

#54
Morroian

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This so much. The SPECIAL system was great because you knew what each stat means; 5 Strength is average, 1 is wet noodle, 10 is Hercules level. Clear, concise, meaningful.

 

Dragon Age's, isn't. What's 40 Strength compared to 30? to 10? To 100? Does your character going from 15 Strength to 90 over the course of the game means he's now 6 times as strong? Apart from arbitrary benchmakrs from armor, it doesn,t actually mean anything.

 

Besides, all allocated stat builds ever do is pigeonhold you into a pattern. Stack one stat, maybe a second one, and you can't go wrong. That's frankly boring and utterly unconsequential to me. I'd rather pick between abilities and passives and whatnot.

 

I agree the SPECIAL system is the best of all current RPGs however I do think a salient point from the OP is getting lost and thats having control over the stat allocation. DAI nominally gives you control with items and passives but it comes across as rather meaningless in the game and having stat control through items is poor from a role playing point of view.



#55
AlanC9

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It always happens. People talk about stat growth when the issue is stat allocation.
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#56
Dabrikishaw

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I have to agree. Removing the ability to distribute 3 stat points each level up added nothing to this game.



#57
Sylvius the Mad

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I have to agree. Removing the ability to distribute 3 stat points each level up added nothing to this game.

Removing the ability to allocate stats at character creation added nothing to this game.

#58
Dabrikishaw

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Removing the ability to allocate stats at character creation added nothing to this game.

Okay?



#59
wepeel_

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Hardly worst design choice, but I agree it's for the worse. What's wrong with manual stat allocation + an "assign automatically"-button? Letting the player make the choice is always better, even when you end up with "y u make the world so large"-players who can't handle having options.



#60
Guest_Stormheart83_*

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Nah, I have seen much worse. Have you ever played any of the gajillion Final Fantasy games? ;)

#61
Frenrihr

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Its not like the stats are really important because they bassically are dumbed down, just look at the redundancy of willpower, how lazy is that.



#62
JasonPogo

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@OP, did you not just start a thread that was bashing the open world aspect of this game? What are you on about hating this game so much?

 

So I should just make positive posts about how great everything and ignore things that bothered me?  If you don't like something in the game you should say so.  People will either agree with you or disagree.  So be it.  But just ignoring the bad makes no scene at all.



#63
archav3n

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I agreed Stats removal is bad. It discourage perfect tweaking of a specialize class based on the playstyle you want. But the problem is not this. Dragon Age Inquisition is a huge beautiful game, visually. And I'm loving it. But the simplified combat, abilities & skill trees make me sad. Really sad I mean.

Bioware just want to make the most simplest game to a appeal to wider audience. That's what I'm getting at.

#64
Decepticon Leader Sully

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ibarely even noticed to be honest.



#65
UniformGreyColor

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So I should just make positive posts about how great everything and ignore things that bothered me?  If you don't like something in the game you should say so.  People will either agree with you or disagree.  So be it.  But just ignoring the bad makes no scene at all.

 

That is completely ignoring the finer parts of my post. And you did not answer my question, you avoided it. If all you say is negative that means you are negative. You know how you could make yourself to not look like a hater of the game? Throw a complement in there once in a while, you know, just to encourage things you would like to see in the next game? It works just as well, if not better in some situations. Unless I am totally wrong about you and you are not actually a BW fan at all. Then I would say there are plenty of much better causes to devote you time to besides trying to kill capitalism; like Feed My Starving Children or something.



#66
Frenrihr

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That is completely ignoring the finer parts of my post. And you did not answer my question, you avoided it. If all you say is negative that means you are negative. You know how you could make yourself to not look like a hater of the game? Throw a complement in there once in a while, you know, just to encourage things you would like to see in the next game? It works just as well, if not better in some situations. Unless I am totally wrong about you and you are not actually a BW fan at all. Then I would say there are plenty of much better causes to devote you time to besides trying to kill capitalism; like Feed My Starving Children or something.

This is soooo stupid i dont even going to point the obvious.



#67
Daeion

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I like adjustable stats, but I'll agree that for the most part you are only going to put them in probably 2-3 stats while ignoring the others. The thing I don't get, is why they basically decided to hide our stats from us, but then you can upgrade your items to add stats or some abilities will say something like +6 Dex required to unlock.

#68
EngineerEd

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I agreed Stats removal is bad. It discourage perfect tweaking of a specialize class based on the playstyle you want. But the problem is not this. Dragon Age Inquisition is a huge beautiful game, visually. And I'm loving it. But the simplified combat, abilities & skill trees make me sad. Really sad I mean.

Bioware just want to make the most simplest game to a appeal to wider audience. That's what I'm getting at.

Not really. BW basically just moved stat attribution on level up to stat attribution via crafting.

 

With crafting you can specialize your character far more than you ever could in Origins or DA2 by stats on level up. 

 

The part about simplified skill trees is true though, especially for Mages compared to DA:O.



#69
Paul E Dangerously

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Not really. BW basically just moved stat attribution on level up to stat attribution via crafting.

 

With crafting you can specialize your character far more than you ever could in Origins or DA2 by stats on level up. 

 

The part about simplified skill trees is true though, especially for Mages compared to DA:O.

 

No, you can't. And you aren't specializing your character - you're giving Default McDipstick a different hat.


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#70
Giantdeathrobot

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I agree the SPECIAL system is the best of all current RPGs however I do think a salient point from the OP is getting lost and thats having control over the stat allocation. DAI nominally gives you control with items and passives but it comes across as rather meaningless in the game and having stat control through items is poor from a role playing point of view.

 

I think otherwise, choosing between interesting passives is far, far better in my books than adding +3 Magic at every single level because doing otherwise for any mage is heresy (replace Magic with Strength or Cunn/Dex as you will). Inquisition had the right idea IMO, it just needed more passives to choose from.

 

If you have a stat system, in my books it needs context. X is a good number, Y a bad number, Z is average. D&D did that well (before third ed and up went nuts with the concept anyway) and so did Fallout. Everything else, however, from Diablo 2 to Dragon Age? Mindless dumping points into whatever stat suited you most, every level. That's not interesting to me in the least. 

 

So to be clear; statistics as a clear picture of what your character is and can do, is good. Statistics as an almost purely artificial gameplay benchmark, especially when they get between you and cool items, is bad. I'd rather have the former than scrap stats completely, but if Bioware wishes it so be it. I have absolutely zero attachements to stat allocation as the player levels.

 

Albeit I do agree with others that level locked loot also needs to go. This isn't an MMO or a multiplayer game. If I busted my ass killing the Ferelden Frostback at level 12, I should be able to equip the kickass staff it drops right now, not wait until level 15.



#71
In Exile

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Not really. BW basically just moved stat attribution on level up to stat attribution via crafting.

With crafting you can specialize your character far more than you ever could in Origins or DA2 by stats on level up.

The part about simplified skill trees is true though, especially for Mages compared to DA:O.


I disagree. There are less spells, but I'm not sure I agree that the spell tree has been simplified. DAO had a lot of trash abilities. There were lots of fluff or filler abilities. I don't like how DA2 and DAO introduced elemental weapons and limited spells in some ways; but there are other damage mitigation ideas I think are good.

It would be nice to bring back buffs and better CC - but in a form that is more useful than in DAO. Really, only the paralyze trees and force shield (or whatever it was called) was worth it.

#72
In Exile

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No, you can't. And you aren't specializing your character - you're giving Default McDipstick a different hat.


You're just comically wrong. By definition you are customising even if you think the stats added are superfluous, which they are not.

#73
Realmzmaster

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How did that happen, anyway? D&D 3.0 had a little of it, but the first game I ever played that went nuts with this crap was Morrowind. I presume that wasn't where it was invented, though. Anyone know where this concept came from.

 

It may have started with Tunnels & Trolls, The attributes change on level up in this manner:

 

Add the new level number to strength or

Add half the new level number to Intelligence or 

Add twice the new level number to Luck or

Add the new new level number to Constitution or

Add half the new level number to Dexterity or

Add half the new level number to Charisma or

Add half the new level number to Strength and half to Constitution. 



#74
Realmzmaster

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I much prefer being able to assign my stats directly than having to mess around with crafting gear with particular stats or choosing certain spells or talents and getting them as a "perk". Removing the option to assign stats is just another part of the simplification and automation of game mechanics that is so prevalent in Inquisition.

 

Early crpgs did not have the ability to assign stats period outside of character creation. D & D rulesets from 1 to 3.5 did not allow changes to the stats unless it was a very special circumstance like a wish or ioun stone. So DAI is actually going back to a system that was used in Bioware games like BG1, BG2, and NWN. It has nothing to do with simplification or automation of the game mechanics



#75
TheJiveDJ

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It's weird that adjustable stats are considered a staple of RPG genre. They tend to make players focus too much on the meta-game rather then actual role playing. Bioware is going in the right direction with perks and skills, they just need to increase the amount. 

This argument would work if they really focused on role playing, but that took a huge back seat to exploration, and unrewarding fetch-quests.