174 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkly Tranquil]

Why is the option to build a trash character so essential? I would agree with you if DA used a system like SPECIAL, where your initial stats had important downstream effects on combat and RP.
However, the stats are entirely confined to combat effect. Your only choice is between a good or trash build. Item equipment let's you do the same. You get an equal amount of customisability. And the system makes 0 sense either way.

That limitation is more of a reflection on Bioware's poor implementation of stats into gameplay. In Origins your stats plus skills mattered for various non-combat skill checks like lockpicking, stealing, persuasion, or intimidation. In DAI, stats seem to be largely superfluous for determining anything other than Crit chance and damage. The real problem is that Bioware don't appear to either want to or know how to integrate stat based gameplay into an open world game with an action based combat system.

To a large degree, stats feel like a hangover from the tactical, dice based combat of Origins that they felt obligated to put into the game, but which ultimately has minimal impact on gameplay in this new style of game. In hind sight, perhaps they should have simply dispensed with the pretence that stats actually matter anymore and ditched them entirely. If they had done that, I could have saved $60.

[xkg]

That's not a great argument since some of those rulesets are trash. D&D in particular. It's the COD of P&P.

 

Let's see the flow.

 

-It is not RPG thing (opinion)

-Most popular RPG games have it (fact)

-Doesn't matter, most of them are trash (opinion)

 

Do you mean your argument (opinion) against a fact is great one?

Here is my opinion, it is not a trash. It is one of the best rulesets out there, in RPG games.

 

 

@xkg:  So because everyone does it... it's necessary?  

 

It is not. My post was about it not being an RPG "thing", which is false unless we are talking about opinions and not the facts.

It is not necessary but surely expected. So if someone is disappointed by the lack of it, saying "you shouldn't because it is not the standard" is not true. Nevermind the fact that both previous games had it.

[Daeion]

Yeah, I don't miss that either.

However, now we have "can't wear this armor I found because it has minimum level of 11 and I'm level 9". This wouldn't be too bad, except pretty much across the board, by the time you get to that minimum level, you can craft something so significantly better that you have no use for the armor anymore.

The level limits should be dropped by at least a level, across the board, or found items - at least the uniques - buffed.

Or because you aren't an elf, or a dwarf, or a human

[In Exile]

That limitation is more of a reflection on Bioware's poor implementation of stats into gameplay. In Origins your stats plus skills mattered for various non-combat skill checks like lockpicking, stealing, persuasion, or intimidation. In DAI, stats seem to be largely superfluous for determining anything other than Crit chance and damage. The real problem is that Bioware don't appear to either want to or know how to integrate stat based gameplay into an open world game with an action based combat system.

To a large degree, stats feel like a hangover from the tactical, dice based combat of Origins that they felt obligated to put into the game, but which ultimately has minimal impact on gameplay in this new style of game. In hind sight, perhaps they should have simply dispensed with the pretence that stats actually matter anymore and ditched them entirely. If they had done that, I could have saved $60.

In origins stats are meaningless for RP. The only effect it really had was that crazy high cunning or strength could substitute for persuade or intimidate, but it was a joke to get that skill. You had 3 or so flavour dialogue options but that was it. That's meaningless.

Compare it with any fallout game using SPECIAL. That is meaningful RP based on stats.

You have as much control over stats in this game as you did in DAO and they're equally meaningless outside of combat.

[In Exile]

Let's see the flow.

-It is not RPG thing (opinion)
-Most popular RPG games have it (fact)
-Doesn't matter, most of them are trash (opinion)

Do you mean your argument (opinion) against a fact is great one?
Here is my opinion, it is not a trash. It is one of the best rulesets out there, in RPG games.



It is not. My post was about it not being an RPG "thing", which is false unless we are talking about opinions and not the facts.
It is not necessary but surely expected. So if someone is disappointed by the lack of it, saying "you shouldn't because it is not the standard" is not true. Nevermind the fact that both previous games had it.

The inference you want drawn - that a design choice is good because it is popular - is an opinion. Any debate about whether something is good is an opinion.

[xkg]

The inference you want drawn - that a design choice is good because it is popular - is an opinion. Any debate about whether something is good is an opinion.

 

I think you misunderstood my post completely. I didn't say it is good design choice because it is popular, that would be an opinion yes - one that I agree.

I said it is RPG "thing" as much as any other part. It is present in most popular RPG systems on the market so it is not wrong to expect it.

Whether it is good or bad in general - not going to argue about that. All I can say it is very important from my POV.

[In Exile]

I think you misunderstood my post completely. I didn't say it is good design choice because it is popular, that would be an opinion yes - one that I agree.
I said it is RPG "thing" as much as any other part. It is present in most popular RPG systems on the market so it is not wrong to expect it.
Whether it is good or bad in general - not going to argue about that. All I can say it is very important from my POV.

Oh, I see. There are P&P rulesets that don't use it that IMO are far better rulesets but that's all subjective.

[Emu8207]

It wasn't the worst decision, although it wasn't good either.

[Teddie Sage]

To you that was tedious, to me that was a fun aspect of the game. Gaming the mechanics to come up with janky OP builds was something that added to Origins replay value.

The thing is, there is no reason why we can't both have what we want; they had it in DA2, it was called "Auto Level Up". You could have the game assign stats in the "officially" optimal way if you just wanted to move on, or you could assign them yourself. I see no reason why that option could not continue to exist.

Auto-level up is just messy in DAO and DA2. Now I can control my stats better with the right equipment and the right skills. I never used Auto-level as it always messed up my builds. Now I don't have to worry about those as the game won't be as punishing.

[theluc76]

The masses like dumb down systems that allows them to have a brain being optional. Generic is the new trend, just dress up your character in a other color palette and that's all it takes to be unique.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Auto-level up is just messy in DAO and DA2. Now I can control my stats better with the right equipment and the right skills. I never used Auto-level as it always messed up my builds. Now I don't have to worry about those as the game won't be as punishing.

If it was imperfectly executed, that's an argument for improved implementation, not ditching the whole idea for something far more time consuming and contingent on RNG drops.

[Malkavian]

The fact is, DA:I is simply a simple game which requires minimum effort invested in your character to be effective, and should be viewed as such. If anyone wish to be more involved with character builds and advancements should look for other games.

 

I am not saying i like it, just that i accepted it as such. Makes coping with what the game could have been and such, and all the bad (what i consider to be bad) much easier. I don't dwell on it, and will certainly impact my future purchases.

[tmp7704]

So I guess some of the most popular RPGs like DnD, GURPS, Vampire etc. all have it by accident, not just because it is, amongst other things, one of the RPGs mechanics that people like.

I'd guess the reason lot of them have it is because other, older system(s) they're copying have it, and also because it's a reward they could give the player for reaching the next level. As the games have since evolved towards more frequent, more numerous rewards (ability to equip level-locked gear, skill specializations etc) increasing your base stats lost its purpose, and turned into combination of pointless chore/potential way to permanently ruin your character.

Like with many other things it took the designers time to realize this particular system is no longer really needed, but they're getting there.

Incidentally, it might be worth a mention that the 'pick stats on level up' seems largely like Western RPG thing, at least as far as computer games are concerned. Consider Eastern series like Final Fantasy or Persona e.g. They lack this element but it doesn't seem to hurt their popularity with the players.

[In Exile]

Worse than THAC0? Worse than The Witcher's sex cards? Worse than having Vaan be the protagonist of Final Fantasy XII?

Not convinced.

Don't hate on THAC0.

It was gibberish at first but when I learned how it worked I like it.

[In Exile]

How did that happen, anyway? D&D 3.0 had a little of it, but the first game I ever played that went nuts with this crap was Morrowind. I presume that wasn't where it was invented, though. Anyone know where this concept came from.

Isn't it MMOs? I mean I don't play them so I don't know but it feels like that is the source.

[Realmzmaster]

Its not the same because we don't have control over stat allocation at character creation.

 

In many of the early crpgs you did not have control over stat allocation. You used a random number generator that rolled for all the attributes. The only choice was to re-roll if you did not like the roll. Some of the games like BG1 allowed for point reassignment after the initial roll but that was limited by race and class choice. You could never go below the class or race requirements.

[In Exile]

Classes should be replaced with templates. Basically removing restrictions but classes operate as predefined settings. My favorite character sheets.

I hated Arcanum with a passion.

[In Exile]

If only for the combat then I could understand but this is practically the most reactive rpg ever created.

I mean the rule set and mechanics. The scripting for quests is great. I just can't get into it. Remember that ring? So many ways to deal with it.

I just can't get into it otherwise. I also don't like the style of the writing - very irreverent - but that's a YMMV because it's purely a style thing and the game does that style really well.

[Morroian]

Well, you do have control over stat allocation in CC.  That's exactly what you're doing when you opt for a mage over a warrior or a rogue over a mage.  Add to that, passives within each class then bolster your stat allocation further.

 

I have no idea why people complain about this when the vast majority just pump most stat points into the same stats.  There really was no unique builds.  For example, in DA:O it was almost set in stone how everyone built a mage, warrior etc around stats.  At least how it is now, you're forced to take a different skill set if you want to go for dexterity over say cunning early on. 

 

Choosing a class is hardly giving a player control over stats. The argument is players want control over stats once a class is chosen and in DAO you could actually make quite different toons with differences in stats it wasn't set in stone.

[In Exile]

Choosing a class is hardly giving a player control over stats. The argument is players want control over stats once a class is chosen and in DAO you could actually make quite different toons with differences in stats it wasn't set in stone.

Choosing a class is exactly how you got control over stats in BG. You *also* got to reallocate your RNG stats, but your base levels were 100% determined by your class. Paladins had higher average stats because of higher average minimums, only fighters (paladins and rangers + kits) could get 18.XX strength, constitution for non fighter-esque classes capped out the bonus at 16 and +2HP/level, etc.

[Remmirath]

I have no idea why people complain about this when the vast majority just pump most stat points into the same stats.  There really was no unique builds.  For example, in DA:O it was almost set in stone how everyone built a mage, warrior etc around stats.  At least how it is now, you're forced to take a different skill set if you want to go for dexterity over say cunning early on.

I would say that, almost certainly, most of the people who would rather be able to allocate their stat points are not the same people who never build their characters in any but the most optimal fashion.

Mages in DA:O, yeah, it was mostly a choice of more power or greater capacity (that one being useful in some cases, but more power is always best). Warriors had a bit more choice associated with them, since one could go for dexterity over strength (and, of course, bow use was an option, so that was an antirely viable thing to do at least in that case), and then constitution was a separate consideration. Rogues had quite a bit of possible variety -- you could go for primarily dexterity, cunning, or (if you so chose) strength-based builds. It's true that nobody really needed willpower.

That wasn't an ideal system, though. There was very little tied to it in terms of roleplaying; I believe that only cunning usually got any options, although there may have been one or two for some of the other stats. The near-infinite increasing also rendered the stat range largely meaningless (a problem that then, in DA II, spread to every aspect of character building and combat).

What I would like is a set, fairly narrow range for stats, that can be allocated at character creation and have some effect on the game. If that's not happening, and they have no effect at all, I'd still like to have some build variety between characters -- and I don't feel that there is much room for that in DA:I -- but if the stats have no roleplaying value, they may as well not exist at all. Having them exist but always the same... that I don't like.
 

Why is the option to build a trash character so essential? I would agree with you if DA used a system like SPECIAL, where your initial stats had important downstream effects on combat and RP.

Honestly, mostly, I just want to be able to control what stats my character has if they have stats. I don't want the game telling me that my character is clumsy or weak-willed when I've no choice in the matter, or that they're agile and strong-willed, for that matter.

That's why I'd say that at this point, we may as well not have stats. They serve two possible purposes: the first to aid roleplaying, and they aren't tied into that at all, unfortunately; the second, to allow for greater variation of character build, and they are no longer performing that function either (and it can be argued that they weren't performing it as well as they should've been in previous Dragon Age games, but there was at least some more possible variation in DA:O).
 

However, the stats are entirely confined to combat effect. Your only choice is between a good or trash build. Item equipment let's you do the same. You get an equal amount of customisability. And the system makes 0 sense either way.

My problem with the equipment-as-customisability thing is purely from a roleplaying perspective, which is that it does not feel like I'm actually changing anything about my character and what they are like, because I'm not. I'm changing what they're wearing, and it's a temporary effect. Yeah, purely for combat, it's not all that different.