174 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

What Bethesda did, in effect, was ensure that nothing you found would ever be better than what you could have at that level. You were gonna find the same on-level junk in the depths of a dungeon as you would plundering the bodies of bandits on a roadside.

I guess they didn't really get too far away from this model in Skyrim. Now all the good loot is in the boss chest at the end of the dungeon, and it's no better than the best of what you'll find in shops. But I guess that's better than having it on the random bandit outside the dungeon.

As far as drops - I really, really hate them in single-player games. It's a mechanic based upon MMOs where you are supposed to do boss runs over and over, but in an SP game it's just "kill thingie, hope and pray, and reload if you don't".
 
The damn roll-and-pray for the  Fade Wall in Origins drove me nuts, as did the Warden Tower Shield, which I never actually did get.

Given your preferences, wouldn't you be better off never learning that items like the Fade Wall and Warden Tower Shield exist until one actually drops?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Paul E Dangerously:  Wait, aren't you the guy that seems to despise magical items (you endlessly use your hat of intelligence commentary) - but then you're mad you can't get Fade Wall or Warden Tower Shield (two items I've never gotten in DA:O). 

[Paul E Dangerously]

@Paul E Dangerously:  Wait, aren't you the guy that seems to despise magical items (you endlessly use your hat of intelligence commentary) - but then you're mad you can't get Fade Wall or Warden Tower Shield (two items I've never gotten in DA:O). 

 

Fade Wall doesn't boost stats. It boosts Stamina - which is derived from a stat, but it doesn't make you smarter. Or stronger.

 

I like magical items. They're great quest rewards. I've been a DM as well as a player in tabletop RPGs for about twenty years now, so I really do both like items and understand why it's appealing. What I do not like are items in lieu of character builds/development (read: DAI). No, you do not need controllable attributes. D&D pre-3rd didn't, but you had avenues in other areas to make up for it. Dual-classing, multi-classing, weapon proficiencies, and so on. I have things I can do to a character to make them my character. Dragon Age has nothing in order to make up for the extreme simplification of damn near every system that survived the butchering of DAO, DAA, and DA2 Bioware did in order to sew together the Frankenstein that is DAI.

 

In DAO, I get to determine how strong, agile, intelligent, and so on that my character is before I even equip my armor. I get to decide how persuasive he can be, what skills he has, and so on. It's all part of it's own process. I get to determine what combat actives and passives he has. Then you can add equipment into the mix. It's my character from the first step to the last step of the build process.

 

In DAI, I'm stuck with Bioware's generic slate from Day 1 to Day 100. I cannot determine my own attributes in any real fashion - no, the passives do not count, since they're all exactly what you're designed to have. Non-combat skills are a fraction of what they were in Origins, though I should give them partial credit for adding a few back. There are fewer skills, and the skills in general are restricted due to the eight-slot limit. When it comes to the overhyped equipment and crafting systems, they botched pretty much the entire damned thing. It's even more restricted than ever, the crafting doesn't try to avoid any of the pitfalls they usually stumble over, and the selection is ludicrously tiny, especially if you're a non-human.

 

DAI just hasn't been rewarding. It may be a different experience should I play a human character - who seems to have 95% of all available equipment restricted for them alone, but it hasn't been good so far. I can do less to customize my character, the equipment and crafting is laughable, the loot drops are even worse, the economy is a joke, and the pace in general is glacial even for me. I've played grindy Korean MMOs that felt like you accomplished something faster than you do in DAI. So at the end of the day, I look at my character (pick one, my Qunari that's still wearing the same ugly heavy armor design at Level 20 that he was at Level 4, my dwarf who seems to have a bunch of long coats and that's it, and my poor emaciated, broken-armed elf) and I see just how little I really get to do with him and how unrewarding the entire experience feels.

 

DAI has it's moments, granted, but they're few and far in between. And they're all on the writing/dialogue end, which does say something for that. There's a really big disconnect on the gameplay end and the writing end. I think I've got more input on my Inquisitor than I ever had on Shep, the Warden, or Hawke, and that's great. But when you get to the actual crunch behind the fluff, I'm shackled to what amounts to some well-intended but badly implemented game design.

 

Now, where I do like it on the gameplay end is the play between actives and passives. I thought DA2 was an improvement over DAO in that area, just as DAI improves upon DA2. I do not, however, think it was necessary to remove so very, very much in order to pull it off. The skill trees are good stuff, they just need more of them, and as I said earlier, to unhook weapon trees from the class-locked skill trees.

 

I guess they didn't really get too far away from this model in Skyrim. Now all the good loot is in the boss chest at the end of the dungeon, and it's no better than the best of what you'll find in shops. But I guess that's better than having it on the random bandit outside the dungeon.

Given your preferences, wouldn't you be better off never learning that items like the Fade Wall and Warden Tower Shield exist until one actually drops?

 

Thing is, I had the Fade Wall drop on my very first go at Gaxkang on my first (DN) run. When it did not do so on my next playthrough, I soon discovered that bad design decisions were afoot. Can't blame me for that.

[UniformGreyColor]

Fade Wall doesn't boost stats. It boosts Stamina - which is derived from a stat, but it doesn't make you smarter. Or stronger.

 

I like magical items. They're great quest rewards. I've been a DM as well as a player in tabletop RPGs for about twenty years now, so I really do both like items and understand why it's appealing. What I do not like are items in lieu of character builds/development (read: DAI). No, you do not need controllable attributes. D&D pre-3rd didn't, but you had avenues in other areas to make up for it. Dual-classing, multi-classing, weapon proficiencies, and so on. I have things I can do to a character to make them my character. Dragon Age has nothing in order to make up for the extreme simplification of damn near every system that survived the butchering of DAO, DAA, and DA2 Bioware did in order to sew together the Frankenstein that is DAI.

 

In DAO, I get to determine how strong, agile, intelligent, and so on that my character is before I even equip my armor. I get to decide how persuasive he can be, what skills he has, and so on. It's all part of it's own process. I get to determine what combat actives and passives he has. Then you can add equipment into the mix. It's my character from the first step to the last step of the build process.

 

In DAI, I'm stuck with Bioware's generic slate from Day 1 to Day 100. I cannot determine my own attributes in any real fashion - no, the passives do not count, since they're all exactly what you're designed to have. Non-combat skills are a fraction of what they were in Origins, though I should give them partial credit for adding a few back. There are fewer skills, and the skills in general are restricted due to the eight-slot limit. When it comes to the overhyped equipment and crafting systems, they botched pretty much the entire damned thing. It's even more restricted than ever, the crafting doesn't try to avoid any of the pitfalls they usually stumble over, and the selection is ludicrously tiny, especially if you're a non-human.

 

DAI just hasn't been rewarding. It may be a different experience should I play a human character - who seems to have 95% of all available equipment restricted for them alone, but it hasn't been good so far. I can do less to customize my character, the equipment and crafting is laughable, the loot drops are even worse, the economy is a joke, and the pace in general is glacial even for me. I've played grindy Korean MMOs that felt like you accomplished something faster than you do in DAI. So at the end of the day, I look at my character (pick one, my Qunari that's still wearing the same ugly heavy armor design at Level 20 that he was at Level 4, my dwarf who seems to have a bunch of long coats and that's it, and my poor emaciated, broken-armed elf) and I see just how little I really get to do with him and how unrewarding the entire experience feels.

 

DAI has it's moments, granted, but they're few and far in between. And they're all on the writing/dialogue end, which does say something for that. There's a really big disconnect on the gameplay end and the writing end. I think I've got more input on my Inquisitor than I ever had on Shep, the Warden, or Hawke, and that's great. But when you get to the actual crunch behind the fluff, I'm shackled to what amounts to some well-intended but badly implemented game design.

 

Now, where I do like it on the gameplay end is the play between actives and passives. I thought DA2 was an improvement over DAO in that area, just as DAI improves upon DA2. I do not, however, think it was necessary to remove so very, very much in order to pull it off. The skill trees are good stuff, they just need more of them, and as I said earlier, to unhook weapon trees from the class-locked skill trees.

 

 

Thing is, I had the Fade Wall drop on my very first go at Gaxkang on my first (DN) run. When it did not do so on my next playthrough, I soon discovered that bad design decisions were afoot. Can't blame me for that.

 

The only thing I would say that would possible contradict what you said is that there is a lot of variety in what/how you do your abilities and passives which gives credence to making the character yours. And you can respec infinite amount of times given you have the coin for it. I will say, however, that DA:O did seem to be a little bit more down to earth if you catch what I'm saying. I really like that part of that game and I think its one thing DA:I could have taken from the first of the series. It had a sort of raw sort of feel that I really like in RPGs. Sometimes there is such thing as too much polish. That is all.

 

Thoughts?

[tmp7704]

And yes, I agree with the edit - rewards, especially epic rewards need to be rewarding. Arthur had Excalibur. Aragorn had Anduril. Fantasy literature and gaming had a ton of these.

One problem with this in computer RPGs -- you give a person one of these and then they complain they've spent 1/3rd or half or most if not entire game without getting any upgrade that'd replace it.

Of course if you give them a few suitable replacements at more frequent points they then complain the "epics" weren't epic enough. Damned etc.

[Paul E Dangerously]

One problem with this in computer RPGs -- you give a person one of these and then they complain they've spent 1/3rd or half or most if not entire game without getting any upgrade that'd replace it.

Of course if you give them a few suitable replacements at more frequent points they then complain the "epics" weren't epic enough. Damned etc.

 

The easiest thing I can think of would be to have varying powers and abilities that unlock at different points of the story - or even locations where you could unlock them. You could do it kind of like they did the Hawke's Key in DA: Legacy, but with real upgrades rather than the miniscule "1.3% to critical hit!" or "2% nature damage" sort of things they did for that DLC.

[Dragonzzilla]

You can't control your attribute stats? Glad to know. I was confused as to why whenever I leveled up, I couldn't put points into certain attributes.

[tmp7704]

The easiest thing I can think of would be to have varying powers and abilities that unlock at different points of the story - or even locations where you could unlock them. You could do it kind of like they did the Hawke's Key in DA: Legacy, but with real upgrades rather than the miniscule "1.3% to critical hit!" or "2% nature damage" sort of things they did for that DLC.

Yeah, this is probably what I'd try myself too. Lord of the Rings Online tried something like this except the weapon had its own XP meter and it'd 'level up' with kills, except they kinda messed it up with having abilities assigned randomly. So then you'd go through piles of "legendary" weapons leveling them up and discarding while looking for one with decent bonuses. Sigh.

[Chrom72]

I just don't see why they couldn't implement stat allocation through gear, at level up, and at character creation. Well, more than anything I don't know why they don't make all the stats more viable for each class, but that's a different argument. I liked Original Sin's system a lot better in that regard. Generally speaking, I think the more control you can give players the better. It doesn't really matter in Inquisition though because there's not much build diversity there. People are saying most just dumped everything in one or two stats in Origins, and maybe that's true. I didn't play that way though. My favorite character I made in Origins/Awakening was my dual-wielding Spirit Warrior who had a pretty even three-way split between Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution. By the endgame of Awakening I had a character that was difficult to hit, but even when he was hit he had great armor and a decent health pool to mitigate most damage anyway. 

[AlanC9]

Thing is, I had the Fade Wall drop on my very first go at Gaxkang on my first (DN) run. When it did not do so on my next playthrough, I soon discovered that bad design decisions were afoot. Can't blame me for that.

I see. I don't think I'd have remembered where the Fade Wall dropped from by the time I fought Gaxkang again. Actually, I'm certain that I wouldn't remember, because I had to look the thing up to know what you were talking about. But that just proves that I don't find loot drops to be worth my interest in the first place. This means that randomness doesn't bother me, but it also means that randomness can't be positive for me either.

[TheJiveDJ]

What are you talking about? The reaction wheel was a phenomenal innovation. This is the fist RPG since ever when you're asked about your own views and feelings on things. You can RP to your hearts content as a result!

This is the first RPG when you get to express emotions on a consistent basis and get NPCs to react. The RPG content is as strong as its ever been.

Right, but when the dialogue has little to no discernable effect on the outcome of the story, or the fate of your companions, the "roleplaying" has very little meaning. Most of the "choices" you make are window dressing. None of you companions are ever at risk except for Blackwall, arguably. There's no sense of, "my actions and words may make or break me at some point".

[UniformGreyColor]

Perhaps the reason they clearly state when you're making a decision is for the Keep. Just guessing here though.

[In Exile]

Right, but when the dialogue has little to no discernable effect on the outcome of the story, or the fate of your companions, the "roleplaying" has very little meaning. Most of the "choices" you make are window dressing. None of you companions are ever at risk except for Blackwall, arguably. There's no sense of, "my actions and words may make or break me at some point".

I'm sorry, did you play DAO? That game is the epitome of meaningless choice and window dressing. Almost nothing you do has any reverberation that isn't limited to companion approvals (which aside from Sacred Ashes can be fixed with dog treats).

If you need your choices to have meaning - and DAI is the best out of the series at this - then you're looking at the wrong company and the wrong series.

The major story stuff in DAI (templars vs. mages) has more story consequence than anything in DAO. And the way the divine choice is handled is more reactive than any DAO quest line. This all without going into spoilers.

[TheJiveDJ]

I'm sorry, did you play DAO? That game is the epitome of meaningless choice and window dressing. Almost nothing you do has any reverberation that isn't limited to companion approvals (which aside from Sacred Ashes can be fixed with dog treats).

If you need your choices to have meaning - and DAI is the best out of the series at this - then you're looking at the wrong company and the wrong series.

The major story stuff in DAI (templars vs. mages) has more story consequence than anything in DAO. And the way the divine choice is handled is more reactive than any DAO quest line. This all without going into spoilers.

Were we playing the same DAO? Most of your companions could be killed, and there were plenty of large choices which had noticeable effects within the games own narrative and the ending. The only two choices that even come close to this in DAI are templars or mages, and the divine. The rest is simply go here, press that, go there press that... gotta say, thats some great roleplaying.

[Natureguy85]

Were we playing the same DAO? Most of your companions could be killed, and there were plenty of large choices which had noticeable effects within the games own narrative and the ending. The only two choices that even come close to this in DAI are templars or mages, and the divine. The rest is simply go here, press that, go there press that... gotta say, thats some great roleplaying.

 

I can't speak for DAI, but in Origins, the game plays out the same way no matter which of the choices you pick. You are correct about the companions, but the only difference for, say, the choice of Behlen vs Harrowmont or Elves vs Werewolves is which side joins your army and the epilogue slides. The story doesn't go in a different direction. This was fine for me in a very self contained story, but it is indeed mostly role play. These decisions may indeed affect the future of Thedas, but we don't see that in the game.

[In Exile]

Were we playing the same DAO? Most of your companions could be killed, and there were plenty of large choices which had noticeable effects within the games own narrative and the ending. The only two choices that even come close to this in DAI are templars or mages, and the divine. The rest is simply go here, press that, go there press that... gotta say, thats some great roleplaying.

The choices had 0 effect on the game and 0 effect on the narrative. Murdering all of your companions has 0 effect on the narrative. Morrigan will always offer the DR and Alistair is always available for the landsmeet. None of the other choices alter the game in any meaningful way. The biggest in-game change is picking the werewolves.

Sure you get different epilogue slides but that's not game content.

[katokires]

Inquisition is the worst design choice for an RPG ever.
  Fixed.

[theluc76]

Removal of stat progression is a removal of control and choice.

 

In DAO i can build up Leliana as an archer or double dagger or small shield and sword

 

wynne was my classic Cleric with med armor, sheild and mace or mage of any flavor

 

Morrigan was the entropy mage or elementalist mage

 

zev was as flexible as leliana

 

kept Sten as a reaver since its written all over his face 

 

and so on... lets try to do that in DAI

 

also find the biggest baddest armor, put it on a rogue and still looks like a swashbuckler. find a dalish armor put it on cass and still looks like a seeker.

 

power of choice they said.

[MonkeyLungs]

I prefer a stat system like SPECIAL. It is easily my favorite and I would shy away from letting people increase those stats except maybe one or two stat increases throughout the entire game as very significant rewards.

 

I also vastly prefer games where your character is the powerful one and your gear is kind of an extra and not as important. Basically this is kind of the opposite of almost every game but I can still dream! The 'gear defines your character' paradigm is slightly sad to me but it isn't something I can't get past.

[AlanC9]

Removal of stat progression is a removal of control and choice.
 
In DAO i can build up Leliana as an archer or double dagger or small shield and sword
 

This argument would be more impressive if there were more ways to build characters within those three weapon types. DAO really didn't have very good talent selections for non-mages.

[Darkly Tranquil]

power of choice they said.

You have choice; you can play within the neat little boxes Bioware has devised, or you can play another game. Luckily, the Steam sale is on. Many bargains, my poor wallet.

[Orihime]

you know the armor customization and weapons can input stats....in the way that you want it btw

[Frenrihr]

I'm sorry, did you play DAO? That game is the epitome of meaningless choice and window dressing. Almost nothing you do has any reverberation that isn't limited to companion approvals (which aside from Sacred Ashes can be fixed with dog treats).

If you need your choices to have meaning - and DAI is the best out of the series at this - then you're looking at the wrong company and the wrong series.

The major story stuff in DAI (templars vs. mages) has more story consequence than anything in DAO. And the way the divine choice is handled is more reactive than any DAO quest line. This all without going into spoilers.

 

This fanboys are sad. 

[Obadiah]

I kinda miss the attribute assignments. My DAO mages always had points in strength so they could wear armor and use swords, or my warriors had dexterity and cunning to dodge and increase critical damage. I dislike the more rigid class progressions that games are using now-adays. They restrict creativity and imagination.

I've only done one DAI playthough so I'm willing to give it a few tries before declaring the current system a failure.

[TheImmortalBeaver]

This argument would be more impressive if there were more ways to build characters within those three weapon types. DAO really didn't have very good talent selections for non-mages.

This. Right here. DAO had a lot more choice in terms of how you could spec people in a general sense, but there was almost nothing to choosing talents for rogues or warriors. You just dumped points into your preferred weapon tree and called it a day. I personally prefer the way that DAI does things, but I'm also a huge Mass Effect fan, so I just prefer how it does things in general.