1503 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

To people who cite the Dalish outliving city elves as evidence of a magical connection: let's remember the differences in their lifestyles. Living in close quarters and in poor conditions increases crime and exposure to disease. Medecine is expensive, and anyone with a knack for magical healing gets carted off to the Circle. The Dalish, meanwhile, have an active way of life, hunting, traveling, and ranging in open spaces. Communal healers live among them unoppressed, and their wide knowledge of herblore likely provides access to effective medecine. If the Dalish live longer than their urban counterparts, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have mystically long lives. It could just be a result of a healthier lifestyle. 

 

People thought there was a magical connection because, in addition to what's said in Origins, Gaider stated in an interview that the Dalish seem to live longer the more generations they live away from humans. The conflicting information from Kirby about the longevity of the Dalish has left us without any definitive information about whether or not this is still the case.

[ctd757]

I feel like the Elves need to just find another part of Thedas because they can't breed with humans

[raging_monkey]

Tried that with mages didnt end well

[MoonDrummer]

Yes, but if they have managed to enslave them it's only because the elvean were to busy to kill each other first.
The young imperium without literally nothing against an advanced culture full of ancient magic power and deadly artifact.
Pheraps some of the elvean god have helped the shamlen, afterall i cannot see any other reason of why they have lost that war.

There is also the quickening to consider, I'm not sure how it worked but it's possible it caused mass panic in whatever elven armies that remained after the civil war.
Is it worth defending your home at the cost of immortality. I can imagine the elves simply reteared trying to avoid tevinter, until they ran out of places to flee.

[Steelcan]

Maybe magic, maybe mundane.
 
Either way, regardless of whether elves who live farther away from humans live longer due to magical reasons or simply a higher quality of life, I think that sounds like a better deal for elves overall.

til they find a band of templars

[Nightdragon8]

Honestly what he says in an interview vs what is writen in a book/game is different.

[myahele]

There is also the fact that city elves can get killed for whatever reason. In Orlais chevaliers go to alienates to kill elves as a graduation ritual.

Then there's the purging (genocide) of alienages simply because there's too much elves, or are scapegoated as carriers of the plague. The alienage in Denerim is next to sewage, in Kirkwall its next to factories (?) In Orlais they hardly get any sunlight due to the tall building surrounding them.

[Rekkampum]

The Dalish are kinda like the people that worship DA:O. 

This would only be an accurate comparison if we'd been invaded, persecuted, and robbed of much of our cultural identity, livelihood, sold into slavery or relegated to alienages by people who didn't worship DA:O for centuries.

[Dean_the_Young]

This would only be an accurate comparison if we'd been invaded, persecuted, and robbed of much of our cultural identity, livelihood, sold into slavery or relegated to alienages by people who didn't worship DA:O for centuries.

 

Flippant: You haven't?

 

Less Flippant: The Dalish can't claim the vast majority of those grievances either. The only one the living Dalish could credibly claim would be persecution. The rest either happens to other people who aren't Dalish, happened hundreds to thousands of years ago, or both.

[Dean_the_Young]

There is also the fact that city elves can get killed for whatever reason. In Orlais chevaliers go to alienates to kill elves as a graduation ritual.
 

 

Remember that that isn't unique to the city elves. Chevaliers (and nobility or wealthy people) are generally unaccountable even if humans are killed, or raped, or otherwise inconvenienced. The politics of racism make a difference, but not that much.

 

 

Then there's the purging (genocide) of alienages simply because there's too much elves, or are scapegoated as carriers of the plague. The alienage in Denerim is next to sewage, in Kirkwall its next to factories (?) In Orlais they hardly get any sunlight due to the tall building surrounding them.

 

 

I can't recall any systemic or regular genocides of alienages on the basis of overpopulation or plague, though I admit it's been awhile. The only one that comes close is when Loghaine was selling them off as slaves using the plague as a cover story- and that was considered politically beyond the pall, not standard procedure.

 

The claim about alienages in Orlais appears to have turned out to be Ferelden rumor or myth. In much of Orlais, the City Elves don't live in quartered-off slums of the cities- they are the cities. It's the nobility and humans, if anyone, who cordon themselves away.

[LobselVith8]

Remember that that isn't unique to the city elves. Chevaliers (and nobility or wealthy people) are generally unaccountable even if humans are killed, or raped, or otherwise inconvenienced. The politics of racism make a difference, but not that much.

 

There's a different mindset when it comes to how some people perceive the elves, in comparison to humans. As Duncan notes, some humans don't even see the elves as people. There's also the example of the King's Law in Ferelden where it's illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf. The issue of race does create something of a notable difference in how elves and humans are treated.

 

I can't recall any systemic or regular genocides of alienages on the basis of overpopulation or plague, though I admit it's been awhile. The only one that comes close is when Loghaine was selling them off as slaves using the plague as a cover story- and that was considered politically beyond the pall, not standard procedure.

 

I believe myahele is referencing the purges, like the one that took place in the Denerim Alienage.

 

The claim about alienages in Orlais appears to have turned out to be Ferelden rumor or myth. In much of Orlais, the City Elves don't live in quartered-off slums of the cities- they are the cities. It's the nobility and humans, if anyone, who cordon themselves away.

 

You're confusing the Dales (which is supposed to be predominantly elven) with the rest of Orlais, particularly as the Epilogue where Briala becomes ruler makes reference to the Alienages.

[Rekkampum]

Flippant: You haven't?

 

Less Flippant: The Dalish can't claim the vast majority of those grievances either. The only one the living Dalish could credibly claim would be persecution. The rest either happens to other people who aren't Dalish, happened hundreds to thousands of years ago, or both.

Nice to see you posting around here, Dean. I remember some of our old spats in the ME2 forum.

 

I think claiming something literally happened to you and claiming something that ultimately is a part of your cultural and ancestral heritage are entirely different but sometimes intertwining things. Much of who the Dalish are now is also a product of said-transgressions, especially in terms of how they are currently viewed in Fereldan and Orlais. Their oppression hasn't necessarily ended; just taken on another, less barbaric form. Had those incidents not occurred it's safe to say who they are and where they currently stand would've also been different.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nice to see you posting around here, Dean. I remember some of our old spats in the ME2 forum.

 

If you say so. I'll take your word for it.
 

 

I think claiming something literally happened to you and claiming something that ultimately is a part of your cultural and ancestral heritage are entirely different but sometimes intertwining things. Much of who the Dalish are now is also a product of said-transgressions, especially in terms of how they are currently viewed in Fereldan and Orlais. Their oppression hasn't necessarily ended; just taken on another, less barbaric form. Had those incidents not occurred it's safe to say who they are and where they currently stand would've also been different.

 

 

Of course it would. But a historical dependence is not the same as a contemporary affliction. There is very little inevitable, or obligated, about the present by the past of several hundred years ago. The Dalish current standing could and would also be much different if they moved on from long-past history, rather than dwell on it and act as if it was the most recent and relevant thing about them.

 

Dalish social history effectively begins with the myth of Arlathan and all but ends with the fall of the Dales. There's precious little relevance of the 'present' or 'recent past' in the Dalish culture- and that's a serious issue, because the Dalish have been out of the Dales for longer than they ever had it. It's a paradigm they desperately need to break out of, because all the actors who were ever involved in creating those incidents or managing the aftermath are long dead and gone. Not even, or rather especially, the Dalish know who their leaders were or what their context or perspective for their choices was.

 

Now think back to the Dalish. What do they talk about as a major event worth remembering? Do they remember great leaders or visionaries amongst the Dalish? Political or ideological-shaping elites who helped redefine the culture? Major feuds, conflicts with the states of Thedas, incidents that shaped Dalish-elf relations?

 

In the last 700 years they've gotten the First Aveline, a Blight-ending Warden, and possibly another savior or two between DAO and DAI. That's... amazingly little to remember, and remarkably little about establishing or challenging the tenor of Dalish-human relations. The one major bright spot in Dalish-Human relations is the semi-permanent settlement in Rivain, and that's not a source of pride or given much importance by the Dalish we've seen in southern Thedas. I can't think of any Dalish we've met who goes 'the Dalish in Rivain are impressive, and we should try to figure out what they did and do it ourselves.'

 

By comparison, think to what your own sense of history considers important. Can you think of major events or developments of social and political consequence in the last twenty years? The last hundred? The last three hundred?

 

Grievances 700 years old interfering with the present are the moral fault of those who continue to hold them far more than those they hold them against. The people involved are long dead, and I am a firm believer that people who did not commit historic crimes should not be held responsible for things that occurred before they were born. By extension, I disapprove of people claiming injury for crimes that happened well before they were born and which living parties had no relationship to or ability to prevent.

[The Ascendant]

I was delighted to learn more about the Ancient Elves, the Creators and the Vallaslin. I was a bit surprised when I learned that the Dalish misinterpreted history, Elves have an extremely interesting, if controversial and mysterious past. Hopefully we can uncover more of them. Remember what Solas said to Abelas, there are other elves (sentinels) like him and therefore other temples dedicated to the gods hidden in the world. Personally playing as a Mage Lavellan I enjoyed learning more about the past, even if it was difficult to deal with. Learning that we destroyed ourselves, our Gods were as petty and flawed as normal people and that I've been wearing slave markings as a point of pride didn't detract from my enjoyment of learning from the past.

Considering the Elves have existed for thousand of years it isn't surprising to believe they forgot, misheard or completely misinterpreted the past. 

[ctd757]

I didn't learn much about God's tho as my Dalish well not much I read about them but not how they interacted with the people. I want to go deeper in Arlanthan civil war

[Ahalvern]

Of course it would. But a historical dependence is not the same as a contemporary affliction. There is very little inevitable, or obligated, about the present by the past of several hundred years ago. The Dalish current standing could and would also be much different if they moved on from long-past history, rather than dwell on it and act as if it was the most recent and relevant thing about them.

 

Dalish social history effectively begins with the myth of Arlathan and all but ends with the fall of the Dales. There's precious little relevance of the 'present' or 'recent past' in the Dalish culture- and that's a serious issue, because the Dalish have been out of the Dales for longer than they ever had it. It's a paradigm they desperately need to break out of, because all the actors who were ever involved in creating those incidents or managing the aftermath are long dead and gone. Not even, or rather especially, the Dalish know who their leaders were or what their context or perspective for their choices was.

 

If only the reason was the elves seeking out the past for the sake of the past. What we uncovered in this game alone of the ancient elven empire and their gods was enough to understand their efforts for searching out their lost lore. For one, they are understandably romanticizing their past and uncovering these truths will make them see clearer. Also, you cannot establish an identity and culture without the past. The very definition of culture is the accumulation of knowledge and way of living from the past. If some of it is distorted or false, the Dalish will have to uncover it and establish their new identity, keeping those worth keeping and reforming/discarding those that are not.

 

As it is, the Dalish have a past and knowledge worth uncovering. As Morrigan insisted at the well, the world has enough forgotten lore and some of it must be rediscovered and kept. I'm sure the Dalish won't be the only ones benefitting from it. So I admire their efforts, and contrary to popular belief, there are Dalish who are open-minded enough to keep to the belief of "recoverers of lost lore" instead of pretending what they all know is the best and the only way.

 

I'm sure it won't be easy, but we were able to learn much from Temple of Mythal alone when the fate of the world was at stake and the location had to be explored. If any other heroes or Abelas uncover other temples with knowledge without requiring them to be desecrated, there would be much to be gained. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[LobselVith8]

In the last 700 years they've gotten the First Aveline, a Blight-ending Warden, and possibly another savior or two between DAO and DAI. That's... amazingly little to remember, and remarkably little about establishing or challenging the tenor of Dalish-human relations. The one major bright spot in Dalish-Human relations is the semi-permanent settlement in Rivain, and that's not a source of pride or given much importance by the Dalish we've seen in southern Thedas. I can't think of any Dalish we've met who goes 'the Dalish in Rivain are impressive, and we should try to figure out what they did and do it ourselves.'

 

Having a settlement that neighbors Rivaini humans who follow the Natural Order is going to be much different than trying to exist in the rest of Thedas where humans follow the Andrastian faith, with many of them believing that everyone should convert to their faith - it's even noted by the Sabrae Clan that they've dealt with Andrastian humans who threatened them to convert to their faith.

 

You're pointing out that the Dalish try to uncover their past, but you're leaving out that their way of life is a matter of survival - Andrastian kingdoms don't tolerate the Dalish, and tend to force them to leave land when they stay too long; the primary reason Clan Lavellan roams the Free Marches is because travelling between the territory of the city-states means that the humans are more wary about attacking them because they don't want to provoke one of their neighbors accidentally.

 

We also know that the Chantry outlawed their religion, and I don't see the Dalish compromising their faith.

 

There's also the issue of the templars, who pursue the clans for their mages because they are technically apostates under Chantry law; it's mentioned by Merrill that this is one of the reasons the clans are nomadic. Ariane, for example, defended her clan from a templar.

[Mistic]

Of course it would. But a historical dependence is not the same as a contemporary affliction. There is very little inevitable, or obligated, about the present by the past of several hundred years ago. The Dalish current standing could and would also be much different if they moved on from long-past history, rather than dwell on it and act as if it was the most recent and relevant thing about them.

 

Given that we have enough examples in real-life about people using events from hundreds of years in the past to give sense to or justify current traditions, politics, territorial claims, religious strife, etc. (rarely the elephant in the room is mentioned when talking about elves in DA), I see it as another example of a typical fantasy trope: using a fictional group to showcase a real human trait.

 

Now think back to the Dalish. What do they talk about as a major event worth remembering? Do they remember great leaders or visionaries amongst the Dalish? Political or ideological-shaping elites who helped redefine the culture? Major feuds, conflicts with the states of Thedas, incidents that shaped Dalish-elf relations?

 

In the last 700 years they've gotten the First Aveline, a Blight-ending Warden, and possibly another savior or two between DAO and DAI. That's... amazingly little to remember, and remarkably little about establishing or challenging the tenor of Dalish-human relations. The one major bright spot in Dalish-Human relations is the semi-permanent settlement in Rivain, and that's not a source of pride or given much importance by the Dalish we've seen in southern Thedas. I can't think of any Dalish we've met who goes 'the Dalish in Rivain are impressive, and we should try to figure out what they did and do it ourselves.'

 

That's... pretty reductionist. First, a nomadic tribe based on oral traditions is going to have much less that settled kingdoms. And the oldest the tradition, the more respect is going to have. You know, like the Iliad and the Odyssey. Not many things survived from the Greek Dark Ages either. Not to talk about a group scattered all over the continent, whose scale is going to be much smaller.

 

For example, in the Dalish Origin in DA:O, the player could hear from craftsman Ilen the story of how they banded and defeated the Clayne, ensuring that the Dalish clans could roam those spaces in safety. There you have a historical event far later than the fall of the Dales, about a mayor conflict between Dalish and humans, which had effects in the present day, and that the Dalish remember with pride. Of course, it hasn't the same scope as an Exalted March, but it would be like making fun of any small country's history just because they're small.

 

But it isn't a bad question. The Dalish could have more (Gisharel was their Genitivi back in the day, he could have spent more time recording other events, couldn't he?). Hell, the Emerald Graves proved that at least the Dales had it. They had tree-tombs to remember their people's great deeds, from warriors and leaders to researchers and scholars.

 

By comparison, think to what your own sense of history considers important. Can you think of major events or developments of social and political consequence in the last twenty years? The last hundred? The last three hundred?

 

Ah, but that's a false comparison. Our own sense of history means nothing because our society is much different from Thedas. A better example would be asking a person in the Middle Ages about those events; even better, ask a member of a nomadic tribe. However, then we might find out that they wouldn't be in a better position than the Dalish. As I mentioned before, Homer and Hesiod didn't sing the praises of their current societies, did they?

[Dean_the_Young]

If only the reason was the elves seeking out the past for the sake of the past. What we uncovered in this game alone of the ancient elven empire and their gods was enough to understand their efforts for searching out their lost lore. For one, they are understandably romanticizing their past and uncovering these truths will make them see clearer. Also, you cannot establish an identity and culture without the past. The very definition of culture is the accumulation of knowledge and way of living from the past. If some of it is distorted or false, the Dalish will have to uncover it and establish their new identity, keeping those worth keeping and reforming/discarding those that are not.

 

As it is, the Dalish have a past and knowledge worth uncovering. As Morrigan insisted at the well, the world has enough forgotten lore and some of it must be rediscovered and kept. I'm sure the Dalish won't be the only ones benefitting from it. So I admire their efforts, and contrary to popular belief, there are Dalish who are open-minded enough to keep to the belief of "recoverers of lost lore" instead of pretending what they all know is the best and the only way.

 

I'm sure it won't be easy, but we were able to learn much from Temple of Mythal alone when the fate of the world was at stake and the location had to be explored. If any other heroes or Abelas uncover other temples with knowledge without requiring them to be desecrated, there would be much to be gained. I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

Huh? I'm not understanding your point.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you on anything here, but I'm not sure what relation this has to what I posted. It's neither an elaboration or rebuttal to any of the points of that post, or what it was replying to. I'm not against the Dalish trying to recover their past- merely in holding themselves to such ancient animosities that they use them to define and shape their present.

 

If you were just using my post as a springboard for your own opinion, then cool beans and never mind my confusion.

[Addai]

If you say so. I'll take your word for it.
 
 
Of course it would. But a historical dependence is not the same as a contemporary affliction. There is very little inevitable, or obligated, about the present by the past of several hundred years ago. The Dalish current standing could and would also be much different if they moved on from long-past history, rather than dwell on it and act as if it was the most recent and relevant thing about them.
 
Dalish social history effectively begins with the myth of Arlathan and all but ends with the fall of the Dales. There's precious little relevance of the 'present' or 'recent past' in the Dalish culture- and that's a serious issue, because the Dalish have been out of the Dales for longer than they ever had it. It's a paradigm they desperately need to break out of, because all the actors who were ever involved in creating those incidents or managing the aftermath are long dead and gone. Not even, or rather especially, the Dalish know who their leaders were or what their context or perspective for their choices was.

What do you suggest they do? Assimilation to Andrastian culture, up to this point, has only been allowed if they give up their culture, gods, and basic rights and dignities. They would have had to turn their leaders over to the Circle. Basically they would cease to exist as a subculture at all. Perhaps that's meaningless to you, but obviously not to them or to those of us who abhor the state of city elves in Thedas.
 

Grievances 700 years old interfering with the present are the moral fault of those who continue to hold them far more than those they hold them against. The people involved are long dead, and I am a firm believer that people who did not commit historic crimes should not be held responsible for things that occurred before they were born. By extension, I disapprove of people claiming injury for crimes that happened well before they were born and which living parties had no relationship to or ability to prevent.

The problem with your analysis is that Aveline was appropriated as a human hero and became part of the Orlesian establishment, and Mahariel is only a hero in a subset of possible world states.

It's fine to say "you should move on" when your very survival isn't threatened daily by circumstances that were shaped in those events 700 years prior. It's not about holding current-day Andrastians responsible for the past. Current-day Andrastians are right nobs when it comes to treatment of the elves. The events of the past are very much alive and being re-enacted in daily life in Thedas, on all sides.

[Ahalvern]

Huh? I'm not understanding your point.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you on anything here, but I'm not sure what relation this has to what I posted. It's neither an elaboration or rebuttal to any of the points of that post, or what it was replying to. I'm not against the Dalish trying to recover their past- merely in holding themselves to such ancient animosities that they use them to define and shape their present.

 

If you were just using my post as a springboard for your own opinion, then cool beans and never mind my confusion.

 

I'm just trying to say they're right with their interest in the past. You said that it inhibits their ability to move forward and build something. I'm saying without uncovering the truths of their past they will never be able to build something of worth. So they're right to cling to the past, however romanticized, so some Dalish can learn what was forgotten and make their people move on, help them not see the past in rose-coloured glasses.

[Dean_the_Young]

Given that we have enough examples in real-life about people using events from hundreds of years in the past to give sense to or justify current traditions, politics, territorial claims, religious strife, etc. (rarely the elephant in the room is mentioned when talking about elves in DA), I see it as another example of a typical fantasy trope: using a fictional group to showcase a real human trait.

 

Bad time to point out I think hundred-year-old-grudges and revaunchism are sad and pathetic and harmful in the real world as well?

 

I don't find it unnatural or absurd. Just contemptable.

 

 

 

 

That's... pretty reductionist. First, a nomadic tribe based on oral traditions is going to have much less that settled kingdoms. And the oldest the tradition, the more respect is going to have. You know, like the Iliad and the Odyssey. Not many things survived from the Greek Dark Ages either. Not to talk about a group scattered all over the continent, whose scale is going to be much smaller.

 

 

I don't consider that a strong argument for what I'm trying to get at. I am one of the frequent reminders that the Dalish have an oral tradition- but I think this is one of their problems. Especially for people with a history fixation. Oral tradition is useful for some things but far from reliable, and writing is far from unknown to the Dalish.

 

The Dalish should be writing things down as fast and as much as possible, to not only keep regained lore recovered but to also build and develope their own history. The Dalish should know who their leaders are and were. The Dalish should make records. The Dalish should write down the old lore, oral and newly found, so that it doesn't get perverted or lost or misremembered when it's just oral tradition once again.

 

Would it be hard? Certainly. Would it  be impossible? Far from it.

 

 

 

 

For example, in the Dalish Origin in DA:O, the player could hear from craftsman Ilen the story of how they banded and defeated the Clayne, ensuring that the Dalish clans could roam those spaces in safety. There you have a historical event far later than the fall of the Dales, about a mayor conflict between Dalish and humans, which had effects in the present day, and that the Dalish remember with pride. Of course, it hasn't the same scope as an Exalted March, but it would be like making fun of any small country's history just because they're small.

 

 

 

That... struggles to be called a major conflict, unless we write down 'major' to be 'inter-tribal.' And there's also the previously noted historical disreprency within it- Ilen's mention of his father's involvement, while dating it to the aftermath of the Dales. Which, going by the lore and word of god, both couldn't be true since Dalish don't have that sort of lifespan except in the most unique questions.

 

 

 

But it isn't a bad question. The Dalish could have more (Gisharel was their Genitivi back in the day, he could have spent more time recording other events, couldn't he?). Hell, the Emerald Graves proved that at least the Dales had it. They had tree-tombs to remember their people's great deeds, from warriors and leaders to researchers and scholars.

 

 

 

Arlathan had written records, and the Dales certainly did. The Dalish also have all sorts of places to hide their written histories, and can make contact within human societies to help produce such records.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, but that's a false comparison. Our own sense of history means nothing because our society is much different from Thedas. A better example would be asking a person in the Middle Ages about those events; even better, ask a member of a nomadic tribe. However, then we might find out that they wouldn't be in a better position than the Dalish. As I mentioned before, Homer and Hesiod didn't sing the praises of their current societies, did they?

 

 

...the people in the Middle Ages also had a plethora of major events of regional and occasionally world-influencing natures. Plagues, Crusades, invasions, civil wars, religious wars. Just because the scale was smaller than our own contemporary examples (Arab Spring, Cold War, WW1, etc.) doesn't mean that the Middle Ages was empty of events.

 

Nomadic people of oral tradition might not remember them... but that's the weakness of an oral tradition rather than written history.

[Addai]

Written records in the Middle Ages survived because of permanent institutions- castles and monasteries. You can't lug huge libraries around in aravels. The Dalish have a hard enough time lugging themselves and their basic survival implements around. And let's recall they are as nomadic as they are not by choice but mainly because of the templars.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm just trying to say they're right with their interest in the past. You said that it inhibits their ability to move forward and build something. I'm saying without uncovering the truths of their past they will never be able to build something of worth. So they're right to cling to the past, however romanticized, so some Dalish can learn what was forgotten and make their people move on, help them not see the past in rose-coloured glasses.

 

You ever heard the saying about the difference between a hobby and a obsession? A hobby is something you enjoy that hurts no one, but an obsession is something you enjoy even though it hurts you and others?

 

Dalish historical obsession goes beyond 'harmless' and into 'actively detracts from their ability to function with others.' The Dalish frame of reference for humans being the perpetrators of their historic woes is not only racist in and of itself (Dalish not only consistently fail to make the distinction of which humans did what, and are unaware of two significant elven roles in the two greatest elven downfalls), but it's woefully anachronistic. No one else in Thedas uses the frame of reference of seven hundred years ago for race relations- not the humans, not the city elves, not the institutions that were actually around there.

 

'Clinging to the past' is not a good thing when it's used to validate victimization and racial resentment... especially when the past that is clung to is as much self-serving fiction as it is actual events.