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[Dean_the_Young]

Written records in the Middle Ages survived because of permanent institutions- castles and monasteries. You can't lug huge libraries around in aravels. The Dalish have a hard enough time lugging themselves and their basic survival implements around.

 

The Dalish have sites they can store them- ancient tombs lost to the humans, but which the Dalish prowl. They could also cultivate alliances and relations within humans who could store the information on their behalf- independent scholars, private collectors, interested nobles, contacts within alienages, dwarves, whoever they could make deals with in exchange for a little of this or that. That's not even touching on things like storage sites such as the Dead Sea Scrolls- though obviously with a bit of elven magic to help preserve things.

 

They don't need to lug huge libraries around in aravels if they don't want to.

 

 

And let's recall they are as nomadic as they are not by choice but mainly because of the templars.

 

Strictly speaking, that's not true- not only are the reasons the Templars occassionally pursue them within the Dalish ability to choose. The Dalish choose to have mages, and the Dalish chose not to have secret settlements far from humans.

 

The Dalish diaspora is as much out of fear of putting all the elven eggs in one basket if sendentry as it is any actual threat to any specific clan.

[Ahalvern]

You ever heard the saying about the difference between a hobby and a obsession? A hobby is something you enjoy that hurts no one, but an obsession is something you enjoy even though it hurts you and others?

 

Dalish historical obsession goes beyond 'harmless' and into 'actively detracts from their ability to function with others.' The Dalish frame of reference for humans being the perpetrators of their historic woes is not only racist in and of itself (Dalish not only consistently fail to make the distinction of which humans did what, and are unaware of two significant elven roles in the two greatest elven downfalls), but it's woefully anachronistic. No one else in Thedas uses the frame of reference of seven hundred years ago for race relations- not the humans, not the city elves, not the institutions that were actually around there.

 

'Clinging to the past' is not a good thing when it's used to validate victimization and racial resentment... especially when the past that is clung to is as much self-serving fiction as it is actual events.

 

How is it considered an obsession though? If anything would hurt the elves it would be forgetting. There's a reason every advanced nation in the world has history classes. And the elves are not resentful for nothing, they're forced into alienages and live as second-class citizens. So of course they will look to the past of how a "great" empire they had. I'm sure the other reason for elves being "obsessed" with the past is they're the only race who has a history of being immortal once. If your empire extended across continents and was the centerplace of magic and immortality you would keep wondering about those times if your people lost them, and why.

 

Not to mention their concerns are legitimate. They lost their immortality around the same time humans appeared next to them, so it's not hard to think why they would blame them. Historically there is enough to cause suspicion and aversion to humans that I cannot blame especially city elves for harbouring grudges. As for the Dalish, as I said, they are trying their best to uncover the past. They're not averse to mending relations if they're proven to have some blame, as the example with Din'an Hanin shows.

 

I apologize if you've heard the same arguments before, as I have not partaken in them. But I really don't think they're "victimizing" themselves by remembering, they were victimized long ago and they're suffering the effects of it even now. As for resentment... well it's not one-sided. Humans have a lot of resentment for elves even now, and their Chantry religion promotes it, as others have said (as of DA:I's epilogue, things may change). I think uncovering the past may be one of the keys to ending this cycle of abuse and resentment between the races. If there are ways for such an action.

[Dean_the_Young]

What do you suggest they do? Assimilation to Andrastian culture, up to this point, has only been allowed if they give up their culture, gods, and basic rights and dignities. They would have had to turn their leaders over to the Circle. Basically they would cease to exist as a subculture at all. Perhaps that's meaningless to you, but obviously not to them or to those of us who abhor the state of city elves in Thedas.
 

 

There's a great deal of space between 'assimilation to Andrastian culture' and what they do do. It's not an either-or decision.

 

They can be nomads and seek to preserve a written history. They can seek the relics or ways of the past without trying to recreate it instead of building a new future. They can be a racial identity group without the massive xenophobia. They can make more peaceful relations with human kingdoms without submitting.

 

 

The problem with your analysis is that Aveline was appropriated as a human hero and became part of the Orlesian establishment, and Mahariel is only a hero in a subset of possible world states.

 

 

I never said they were particularly good or successful examples, did I? I was illustrating how few and tenuous they were.

As much as I dislike real-world cults of personalities, the Dalish have the opposite problem of too few personalities or public figures of note. Part of it is how even good leaders get washed away in the generic generalizations of oral tradition, another part is the divided nature of the diaspora, but a third part is that the Dalish just don't hold up remarkable individuals that much. You have to be legendary to have your name worth remembering- a problem for anyone who actually does try to stand up and change Dalish culture as a whole.

 

It's fine to say "you should move on" when your very survival isn't threatened daily by circumstances that were shaped in those events 700 years prior. It's not about holding current-day Andrastians responsible for the past. Current-day Andrastians are right nobs when it comes to treatment of the elves. The events of the past are very much alive and being re-enacted in daily life in Thedas, on all sides.

 

 

Current-day Andrastians are indeed right nobs when it comes to treatment of the elves- but they aren't the Andrastians (or, as the Dalish prefer, 'humans') of 700 years ago. Human attitudes have changed, and so have their concerns, and the Dalish need to recognize and adapt to that.

 

Seven hundred years ago, all elves were faced with conversion or exile (with a side dish of death) because Andrastians hated elves for starting a major unprovoked war (Red Crossing and the initial invasion or Orlais) after centuries of being bad neighbors (the Blight, border closures) and religious differences (missionary dispute, the Exalted March).

 

Seven hundred years later, the only one of those that even remotely applies is religious differences, and that's with a religious institution that has long-since settled on peaceful coexistence with non-believers (malcontents not withstanding) where possible. No critical mass of the population hates all things elven because of those events. People are racist against city elves for generic, distinction-driven racism based on habit long-ago entrenched and the spite of having someone lower than them to bully, not some major ideology. People hate/fear the Dalish because 'Dalish' is too-often synonymous with 'bandits' with a side of 'free mages'- but so long as Dalish don't behave as bandits, and keep their mages away from human settlements, there's general ambivalence ranging from live-and-let-live to utter indifference. Elves, city or Dalish, are not the great priorities or concerns of the humans- Qunari, Blights, Mages, and other human nations are.

 

The Dalish aren't under the threat that their ancestors were centuries prior, and more importantly not for the reasons their ancestors were centuries prior. Radical avoidance that was once justified no longer is. The biggest threat to the Dalish isn't the human views of the past- it's the human views of the present, which as far as they relate to the Dalish are founded and sustained by Dalish conduct in the present. And that is entirely within the Dalish ability to change.

[LobselVith8]

There's a great deal of space between 'assimilation to Andrastian culture' and what they do do. It's not an either-or decision.

 

They can be nomads and seek to preserve a written history. They can seek the relics or ways of the past without trying to recreate it instead of building a new future. They can be a racial identity group without the massive xenophobia. They can make more peaceful relations with human kingdoms without submitting.

 

I don't see how compromise is possible when their religion is outlawed by the Chantry, mages are not permitted to be outside the Circle Towers, some Dalish deal with threats of violence to convert to the Andrastian faith as nomads (so you can imagine what would ensue if they tried to live with humans), and elves tend to get relegated to Alienages because any elves who try to live outside the Alienages usually have their homes burned down (as noted by hahren Sarethia):

 

"But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break, and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field."

 

I never said they were particularly good or successful examples, did I? I was illustrating how few and tenuous they were.

As much as I dislike real-world cults of personalities, the Dalish have the opposite problem of too few personalities or public figures of note. Part of it is how even good leaders get washed away in the generic generalizations of oral tradition, another part is the divided nature of the diaspora, but a third part is that the Dalish just don't hold up remarkable individuals that much. You have to be legendary to have your name worth remembering- a problem for anyone who actually does try to stand up and change Dalish culture as a whole.

 

Well, technically, the Dalish have oral and written history, but the primary issue here is that the Dalish are focused on surviving on a continent that is hostile to them and their way of life; it doesn't change unless one of their own becomes the 'Herald of Andraste', which leads to a change of perspective among some Andrastian humans who think the Maker chose an elf because of how humans have treated elves.

 

Seven hundred years ago, all elves were faced with conversion or exile (with a side dish of death) because Andrastians hated elves for starting a major unprovoked war (Red Crossing and the initial invasion or Orlais) after centuries of being bad neighbors (the Blight, border closures) and religious differences (missionary dispute, the Exalted March).

 

Technically, we had the Dales closing their borders to Orlais - a nation created through conquest and forced conversion to Drakon's particular brand of the Cult of the Maker - and we also have references to border issues, templar incursions into the Dales, and at least one murder of an elf by humans long before the tragedy at Red Crossing ever transpired.

 

Then we have an incident at Red Crossing where elves and humans both lead to the war between the Dales and Orlais (an group of Emerald Knights pursuing one of their own - who they thought would spill state secrets - and then the accidental killing of a single human, followed by a group of humans killing an elf who had nothing to do with it, and then attacking the Emerald Knights, who defended themselves). It was a mess, but it was an incident where both sides made mistakes.

 

However, these doesn't really come into play as to what the current issue is for the Dalish - the criminalization of their religion, being driven away by human lords or mobs if they stay too long in one area, templars pursuing the clans for their mages, threats against them to convert, el ect. There are modern reasons why the Dalish are wary of outsiders.

 

Seven hundred years later, the only one of those that even remotely applies is religious differences, and that's with a religious institution that has long-since settled on peaceful coexistence with non-believers (malcontents not withstanding) where possible. No critical mass of the population hates all things elven because of those events. People are racist against city elves for generic, distinction-driven racism based on habit long-ago entrenched and the spite of having someone lower than them to bully, not some major ideology. People hate/fear the Dalish because 'Dalish' is too-often synonymous with 'bandits' with a side of 'free mages'- but so long as Dalish don't behave as bandits, and keep their mages away from human settlements, there's general ambivalence ranging from live-and-let-live to utter indifference. Elves, city or Dalish, are not the great priorities or concerns of the humans- Qunari, Blights, Mages, and other human nations are.

 

That's not really the case, as we know from Clan Lavellan travelling in the Free Marches precisely because it would prohibit some humans from trying to attack them because they wouldn't want to provoke a war with one of their neighbors by accident. It's hardly live and let live.

 

The Dalish aren't under the threat that their ancestors were centuries prior, and more importantly not for the reasons their ancestors were centuries prior. Radical avoidance that was once justified no longer is. The biggest threat to the Dalish isn't the human views of the past- it's the human views of the present, which as far as they relate to the Dalish are founded and sustained by Dalish conduct in the present. And that is entirely within the Dalish ability to change.

 

With part of the issues being their religion, which is outlawed, and their mages, who aren't controlled by templars. That doesn't even touch on the general racism against elves, which is noted in Origins by Duncan, and by Briala in Inquisition, as she's fighting to give Orlesian elves rights and freedoms they have never known before.

[Dean_the_Young]

How is it considered an obsession though? If anything would hurt the elves it would be forgetting. There's a reason every advanced nation in the world has history classes.

 

 

There's also a reason that every advanced nation in the world has history classes that cover the general span of history, rather than fixating on a few badly remembered events centuries or millenia before the present.

 

By preoccupying them at the expense of other things (and others perspectives of history), the dalish conceit reaches obsession.

 

 

 

 

And the elves are not resentful for nothing, they're forced into alienages and live as second-class citizens. So of course they will look to the past of how a "great" empire they had. I'm sure the other reason for elves being "obsessed" with the past is they're the only race who has a history of being immortal once. If your empire extended across continents and was the centerplace of magic and immortality you would keep wondering about those times if your people lost them, and why.

 

Are we talking about the Dalish, or the elves? The two can not be used interchangeably, no matter how much the Dalish identify as the last of the True Elf ideal. There is no pan-elven identity movement in Thedas.

 

The Dalish are not forced into alienages. They are stateless nomads, and do not endure systemic racism as second-class citizens. The elves who do live in the alienages and face systemic racism, the city elves, do not share the Dalish views or attitudes towards history (or identity). I have not, in any way, criticized the general (or any specific) city elf perspective or policy towards history.

 

 

 

Not to mention their concerns are legitimate. They lost their immortality around the same time humans appeared next to them, so it's not hard to think why they would blame them. Historically there is enough to cause suspicion and aversion to humans that I cannot blame especially city elves for harbouring grudges. As for the Dalish, as I said, they are trying their best to uncover the past. They're not averse to mending relations if they're proven to have some blame, as the example with Din'an Hanin shows.

 

I agree it's not hard to think why they would blame humans. But I recongize that correlation and causation fallacies are easy- that doesn't make them any more rational or defensible.

 

 

 

 

I apologize if you've heard the same arguments before, as I have not partaken in them.

 

 

Not an issue. You have nothing to apologize for (yet) (wink wink nudge nudge).

 

But I really don't think they're "victimizing" themselves by remembering, they were victimized long ago and they're suffering the effects of it even now. As for resentment... well it's not one-sided. Humans have a lot of resentment for elves even now, and their Chantry religion promotes it, as others have said (as of DA:I's epilogue, things may change).

 

 

'They' were only victimized long ago if 'they' can be construed to unite separate entirely different peoples of radically different experiences hundreds of years and an entire culture apart.

 

The Dalish are not the Dales. The Dalish of the last six hundred odd years did not experience what the Dales and the first Dalish did 700 years ago. It's as inherent as a

 

 

 

I think uncovering the past may be one of the keys to ending this cycle of abuse and resentment between the races. If there are ways for such an action.

 

At this point, a unifying theme of the Dalish plots has been that the answers don't lie in the past, but will come from moving forward. In all three games, the past did not absolve or vindicate or solve problems- it only dug up more incriminating and damning context of the Dalish themselves. Zarathian's grudge, held after his children's murders were long since dead, nearly destroyed his clan. Merrill's eluvian, rather than restoring the past or saving her people as she hoped, effectively destroyed a Clan and contributed nothing remarkable. The ruins of the Dales vindicated not the Dalish narrative, but the Human history of Red Crossing as an unprovoked start to the Dales-Orlais War that led to the fall of the Dales. And then the whole revelation of the Ancient Elves, who rejected major Dalish narratives.

 

Short of a tool that would destroy the distinction of races (such as a genocidal weapon), there's nothing in ancient elven history that will fix the past. Humans were dicks- turns out elves were dicks to. Exploring more into how the romanticized past wasn't so romantic won't change that.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish are not forced into alienages. They are stateless nomads, and do not endure systemic racism as second-class citizens. The elves who do live in the alienages and face systemic racism, the city elves, do not share the Dalish views or attitudes towards history (or identity). I have not, in any way, criticized the general (or any specific) city elf perspective or policy towards history.

 

I'd say that the Dalish still suffer because of the racism against elves. Their nomadic and live apart as a means of survival, which is explained as the reason why they only meet once every ten years for the Arlathvenn. Velanna's clan was nearly burned down by humans who didn't want them in the area. The Sabrae Clan dealt with threats to convert because they followed the religion of the People.

 

At this point, a unifying theme of the Dalish plots has been that the answers don't lie in the past, but will come from moving forward. In all three games, the past did not absolve or vindicate or solve problems- it only dug up more incriminating and damning context of the Dalish themselves. Zarathian's grudge, held after his children's murders were long since dead, nearly destroyed his clan. Merrill's eluvian, rather than restoring the past or saving her people as she hoped, effectively destroyed a Clan and contributed nothing remarkable. The ruins of the Dales vindicated not the Dalish narrative, but the Human history of Red Crossing as an unprovoked start to the Dales-Orlais War that led to the fall of the Dales. And then the whole revelation of the Ancient Elves, who rejected major Dalish narratives.

 

Actually, Keeper Hawen's clan explain that they were wrong because the scroll reveals that humans and elves were both responsible for the inception of the war, so I don't see why you think it was one-sided. Even reading the contents of the scroll reveals that humans and elves were having issues long before Red Crossing, and the narrative of the scroll starts with the murder of an elf by humans.

 

As for Merrill's efforts with the Eluvian, I see no reason to blame Merrill for the actions of other grown adults - Marethari is responsible for her own actions, as are the grown men and women of the clan.

 

In regards to the ancient elves, the Creators were real, there was immortality, and Arlathan existed. I'm not seeing how it rejected all Dalish narratives, particularly when the tale about the destruction of Arlathan is referenced as a 'legend' by Keeper Gisharel, who even uses the term 'whatever the case', fully acknowledging that the story about Arlathan's fall might not even be true.

[Addai]

There's a great deal of space between 'assimilation to Andrastian culture' and what they do do. It's not an either-or decision.
 
They can be nomads and seek to preserve a written history. They can seek the relics or ways of the past without trying to recreate it instead of building a new future. They can be a racial identity group without the massive xenophobia. They can make more peaceful relations with human kingdoms without submitting.

That "great deal of space" requires land, money and power, in sufficient quantity that you not only can defend it, but have a surplus to worry about something other than the basics of survival. The fact that they're hunted nomads has contributed to the xenophobia. I'm still waiting to hear what you think they could do short of losing themselves entirely.
 

Current-day Andrastians are indeed right nobs when it comes to treatment of the elves- but they aren't the Andrastians (or, as the Dalish prefer, 'humans') of 700 years ago. Human attitudes have changed, and so have their concerns, and the Dalish need to recognize and adapt to that.

No, in some ways they're worse because they've lived so long in privilege that they begin to think it's the natural order.
 

Seven hundred years ago, all elves were faced with conversion or exile (with a side dish of death) because Andrastians hated elves for starting a major unprovoked war (Red Crossing and the initial invasion or Orlais) after centuries of being bad neighbors (the Blight, border closures) and religious differences (missionary dispute, the Exalted March).

"Unprovoked" is certainly a matter of opinion. They were sending templars back then, too.
 

Seven hundred years later, the only one of those that even remotely applies is religious differences, and that's with a religious institution that has long-since settled on peaceful coexistence with non-believers (malcontents not withstanding) where possible. No critical mass of the population hates all things elven because of those events.

Are you serious with this? Elves have not even the basic building blocks of economic freedom or social dignity. Their marriages are regulated, they have no access to even the basics of economic or political autonomy or education, and they're shut out of every religious, economic and political institution except the Circles.
 

People are racist against city elves for generic, distinction-driven racism based on habit long-ago entrenched and the spite of having someone lower than them to bully, not some major ideology.

The ideology is very much present still. Shartan's ears are cut off in the only mural that remains of him in Val Royeux. Elven thieves have their ears cut off in Orlais. There is racial oppression- targeted racial oppression- not just a general malaise and misunderstanding.

It's true that some Dalish turn to raiding, and this only intensifies problems for all of them. But it's also hard to sort fact from rumor. Many Dalish try to keep out of humans' way, which then leads them to suffer the effects of isolationism. If they interact with human culture, it draws attention that also leads to conflicts. There are no easy answers and I recognize that humans are caught up in the system as well.

[ctd757]

I'm still mad I somehow got Clan Levallan killed and nobody notices?

[Dean_the_Young]

That "great deal of space" requires land, money and power, in sufficient quantity that you not only can defend it, but have a surplus to worry about something other than the basics of survival. The fact that they're hunted nomads has contributed to the xenophobia.

Not really. We know there are plenty of abandoned, empty, or unsettled places in Thedas- that's not only where the Dalish travel through and pause around, but also where various tribals live as well. And there's not only the far south, but the unmapped west where the Warden is off to.

 

And that's if they wanted uber-independence. They could also strike an alliance with a kingdom for an autonomous zone.

 

 

I'm still waiting to hear what you think they could do short of losing themselves entirely.

 

 

I... did. They can open up trade relations, keep a written history and find places or partners to store it, strike better and more peaceful relations with local powers and influence actors, and stop perpetuating a xenophobic narrative that relies on absurdly broad generalizations of events so long ago that not even the Dalish really know what occurred.

 

They can still be nomadic reclamation identity-group tribes if they want. But they can do a lot better job at it as well.

 

No, in some ways they're worse because they've lived so long in privilege that they begin to think it's the natural order.

 

 

So, in ways pretty small compared to that whole 'convert or exile or die' context.

 

Why are you even trying to pretend it's equivalent?

 

"Unprovoked" is certainly a matter of opinion. They were sending templars back then, too.

 

 To justify a settlement massacre or coordinated invasion? Citation, please.

 

 

Are you serious with this? Elves have not even the basic building blocks of economic freedom or social dignity. Their marriages are regulated, they have no access to even the basics of economic or political autonomy or education, and they're shut out of every religious, economic and political institution except the Circles.

 

 

Dude... none of that, especially the parts that the elves do to themselves (which is all that could be claimed of the Dalish who are outside Andrastian society), counters what you just quoted.

 

That City Elves are locked out of the Chantry hierarchy doesn't challenge that the Chantry is not in some 'burn the heretics' witchhunt mode against non-believers. No one is going around saying 'elves should be second-class because Red Crossing.' That's the point- the reasons and rationalizations that would have applied seven hundred years ago no longer apply.

 

I think you really confused what I said for some sort of 'city elves aren't oppressed.'
 

 

 

The ideology is very much present still. Shartan's ears are cut off in the only mural that remains of him in Val Royeux. Elven theives have their ears cut off in Orlais. There is racial oppression, targeted racial oppression, not just a general malaise.

 

 

Racial oppresion =/= ideology. Unless you intend to argue that Shartan's ears were cut off recently, you're still going back to the viewpoints that began raw by events centuries ago- viewpoints that I already pointed out endure by habit.

 

 

It's true that some Dalish turn to raiding, and this only intensifies problems for all of them. But it's also hard to sort fact from rumor. Many Dalish try to keep out of humans' way, which then leads them to suffer the effects of isolationism. If they interact with human culture, it draws attention that also leads to conflicts. There are no easy answers and I recognize that humans are caught up in the system as well.

 

 

Sure. But the resolution in this context rests on the Dalish, who have pretensions to being a singular culture, rather than the humans, who do not. What human nation A does will not implicate human nation B, because A and B do not claim to a singular identity. It's the Them, Not Me distinction. The Dalish do, however, claim a shared identity- the idea of 'We.' That means what Dalish clan C does reflects on Dalish clan D, because C and D despite being different tribes are sharing the same identity space.

 

There are two basic paths to resolving that- either reconsolidation and unity, or formal separation.

 

In the first, the Dalish collective shares consensus and maintains relations with other identity groups, and maintain accountability and consistency within their own ranks. If tribe C does something that violates relations with nation A, D will step in and bring accountability so that nation A will not have to.

 

In the second, the Dalish tribes diminish the collective identity and emphasize the tribal identity. Each tribe has its own relations with nations, without any expectation of shared identity or relations. That way if tribe C does something that angers nation A, D will do nothing... and nothing will be done to it, so long as it doesn't interfere with the response to nation A.

 

Both have advantages, and both have tradeoffs. But sharing an identity group without having a consensus is bad politics and bad policy- everyone who shares an identity group is affected by the actions of other members of the group.

[Addai]

I really don't think you're even being serious with this. The idea that Andrastian nations would allow the Dalish to consolidate power and land anywhere near them is a fantasy, proven by the illusory nature of the Dalish boon in Origins. Ferelden is even one of the more tolerant nations. Nor can I take you seriously when you maintain that the anti-elven prejudice is no longer motivated by ideology, when it's enshrined in Andrastianism in both its white and black forms.

 

The Dalish undergoing a major cultural shift whereby they centralize and consolidate power might happen, under a charismatic leader, but I guess we'll have to see if that's where the writers want to go.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

 

Actually, Keeper Hawen's clan explain that they were wrong because the scroll reveals that humans and elves were both responsible for the inception of the war, so I don't see why you think it was one-sided. Even reading the contents of the scroll reveals that humans and elves were having issues long before Red Crossing, and the narrative of the scroll starts with the murder of an elf by humans.

 

I think it's also important to note how both groups react to being given this bit of history.

 

Give it to the Dalish, and they recognize they were wrong, send a mourning halla to Red Crossing and recognize both sides at fault.

 

Give it to the Chantry, and they twist the facts so only the Dalish are the aggressors and the town is nothing but victims. 

[dragonflight288]

I'm still mad I somehow got Clan Levallan killed and nobody notices?

 

It gets killed based on the choices you make at the War Table. They can end up living, honored by City Elves and human commoners, and become a beacon o hope. 

[Lulupab]

I think it's also important to note how both groups react to being given this bit of history.

 

Give it to the Dalish, and they recognize they were wrong, send a mourning halla to Red Crossing and recognize both sides at fault.

 

Give it to the Chantry, and they twist the facts so only the Dalish are the aggressors and the town is nothing but victims. 

 

That is sad, I assumed the chantry apologizes as well. I guess that was too much to hope for.

[TK514]

I think it's also important to note how both groups react to being given this bit of history.

 

Give it to the Dalish, and they recognize they were wrong, send a mourning halla to Red Crossing and recognize both sides at fault.

 

Give it to the Chantry, and they twist the facts so only the Dalish are the aggressors and the town is nothing but victims. 

 

Because the town is nothing but victims?  Remind me what the people of Red Crossing did to warrant a Dalish incursion that resulted in the deaths of villagers at the hands of trained elven soldiers?

[EmissaryofLies]

That is sad, I assumed the chantry apologizes as well. I guess that was too much to hope for.

 

To apologize would be admitting that they've done something wrong... The Chantry that I know has never done nothing to nobody. And if they have, it was the Maker's Will and they had a Divine Right.

[LobselVith8]

Because the town is nothing but victims?  Remind me what the people of Red Crossing did to warrant a Dalish incursion that resulted in the deaths of villagers at the hands of trained elven soldiers?

 

An entire town wasn't massacred, a single human was accidentally killed by Emerald Knights who were pursuing one of their own (who they were worried might reveal state secrets that could compromise the safety of the Dales), and then a small group of humans ended up killing the human's elven lover (the same target of the Emerald Knights) and attacked the Emerald Knights, who defended themselves against their attackers.

 

Both sides were at fault, but only the Dalish acknowledge that.

[dragonflight288]

Because the town is nothing but victims?  Remind me what the people of Red Crossing did to warrant a Dalish incursion that resulted in the deaths of villagers at the hands of trained elven soldiers?

 

Attacked said elves while they were looking for a possible traitor. 

 

One elf killed the woman the elf-defector fell in love with and immediately realized her mistake, and the town attacked the entire group of elves after killing the Knights own target. 

 

It was the elves who defended themselves from the town, they weren't there to attack it, but a misunderstanding inflamed the passion in the villagers and they started a fight that they couldn't win. 

 

Both sides are at fault. 

[Lulupab]

To apologize would be admitting that they've done something wrong... The Chantry that I know has never done nothing to nobody. And if they have, it was the Maker's Will and they had a Divine Right.

 

I wanted to punch Elthina on the nose when she said "the chanty is not a domineering father with a whip in hand, she is a gentle mother". Right. so gentle, so kind, wow.

 

Anyone who denies both sides are at fault is starting to smell like Petrice, be careful because your zealotry is showing.

[Insaner Robot]

Attacked said elves while they were looking for a possible traitor. 

 

One elf killed the woman the elf-defector fell in love with and immediately realized her mistake, and the town attacked the entire group of elves after killing the Knights own target. 

 

It was the elves who defended themselves from the town, they weren't there to attack it, but a misunderstanding inflamed the passion in the villagers and they started a fight that they couldn't win. 

 

Both sides are at fault. 

 

A group of villagers alerted by the death of a woman at the hands of fully trained and armed soldiers, and presumably their wolf companions. And their the attackers, not the defenders? 

[TK514]

Attacked said elves while they were looking for a possible traitor. 
 
One elf killed the woman the elf-defector fell in love with and immediately realized her mistake, and the town attacked the entire group of elves after killing the Knights own target. 
 
It was the elves who defended themselves from the town, they weren't there to attack it, but a misunderstanding inflamed the passion in the villagers and they started a fight that they couldn't win. 
 
Both sides are at fault.

So defending yourself and your neighbors from an armed incursion makes you at fault for the incursion. Got it.

[LobselVith8]

A group of villagers alerted by the death of a woman at the hands of fully trained and armed soldiers, and presumably their wolf companions. And their the attackers, not the defenders? 

 

A group of humans murdered an elf who wasn't with the Emerald Knights (as he was having a romantic relationship with the human who was accidentally killed, and he was the objective of the Emerald Knights), and then the humans tried to kill the Emerald Knights. Both sides are responsible for their actions.

[LOLandStuff]

So, the elves defended themselves by invading and killing everyone in that town.

 

Take that, you sexy  shemlen peasants.

[Insaner Robot]

The mistake for killing the unarmed man entirely belongs to the villagers. However for the attack and all other deaths at Red Crossing the onus lies solely on the soldiers.

[LobselVith8]

So defending yourself and your neighbors from an armed incursion makes you at fault for the incursion. Got it.

 

You mean a group of armed humans murdering an elf who wasn't directly responsible for the accidental killing of his human lover, and apparently trying to kill the Emerald Knights in revenge.

 

I don't see why the humans are being absolved for all wrongdoing. No one excuses the accidental murder of the human woman, but no one forced that group of humans to murder her elven lover, or try to attack the Emerald Knights. No one excuses the actions of the elves, but both sides were wrong. Even the Dalish can admit that both sides played a role in the inception of the war and were wrong, and extend an olive branch to the current inhabitants of Red Crossing as a gesture of peace.

[Addai]

Anyone being serious will understand that when you put two groups side by side who have deep cultural and religious divides and deep mutual mistrust and incidents of provocation (on both sides- one of the memory trees in the Emerald Graves talks about the humans sending templars and missionaries into the Dales)... it only takes a spark to set off all that kindling. Red Crossing is a tragic story but also a culmination of many historical and social factors that made war pretty much inevitable.

Of course the chuckleheads will keep saying "lol sexy humans" as if that means anything to anyone but them. Best to ignore them.