1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

no, the fault of the war is the elves, because they chose to escalate the conflict into an all out invasion

And I still don't get what's so hard to understand about this. Accept fault like a man and move in.

[Steelcan]

 

Furthermore, the entire story in 'The Masked Empire' makes it clear that the Eluvians could benefit the Elvhen, which means Merrill was correct in thinking that they could potentially and irrevocably change the lives of the People for the better.

Given that this Eluvian most likely connects to the Black City, all she'd accomplish is establishing a direct line to whatever other monstrosities lie there.

 

Admittedly this is speculation, pure and simple, but it seems to hold a good deal of water

[LobselVith8]

oh now its the 'accidental' killing of a lover... from what was told it was clearly on propose,

 

Who the Emerald Knight thought was armed. Hence, why I said it was accidental. It's not like the Emerald Knight set out to kill the woman until she thought she was a threat to her group. I also said both sides are to blame, so I don't see what your point is. Both sides were wrong.

 

anyone with a lick of sense would understand the situation got out of control, it started off with 2 people falling in love, one elf one human, The other Elves, saw the elf leaving the culture, thought it was going to give up secerts so they killed them. Which upset the locals as 'an elf' killed a human for no good reason. Which promted to kill the elf in the same manner. Then which started out into an open conflct. So in reality its BOTH THERE FUALTS. More than 1 person can be the blame of a death or incedent.

 

Yeah, it was a messy situation where both sides made mistakes.

 

Maybe the humans over reacted, but SO DID THE ELVES. stop trying to say its 1 sides fualt over anther. And if I where to put the blame on 1 side, It would be the Elves, because they are the ones who killed someone first. They shot the first shot

 

You do realize that I've repeatedly said both sides are at fault, right?

[umadcommander]

Given that this Eluvian most likely connects to the Black City, all she'd accomplish is establishing a direct line to whatever other monstrosities lie there.

 

Admittedly this is speculation, pure and simple, but it seems to hold a good deal of water

its almost as if chinese whispers was a bad way of holding knowledge, who knew?

[Ahalvern]

Technically, Merrill was building the Eluvian from lore she gathered and studied, and information she extrapolated from the shard. She only learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the necessary lyrium to cleanse the shard of the taint with ordinary magic. Given that the shard was cleansed (which is why she isn't a ghoul like the elves in 'Witch Hunt'), her efforts to cleanse the shard clearly worked.

 

Furthermore, the entire story in 'The Masked Empire' makes it clear that the Eluvians could benefit the Elvhen, which means Merrill was correct in thinking that they could potentially and irrevocably change the lives of the People for the better.

 

Thanks, I didn't know the details. It's been a long time since I finished DA2. This would be a good time to say I didn't read any of the Dragon Age books yet, but I plan to.

 

In that case, I have faith in Merril. I hope it does some good for the People, it's sad she had to lose her clan to reassemble it.

[Lulupab]

oh now its the 'accidental' killing of a lover... from what was told it was clearly on propose,

 

anyone with a lick of sense would understand the situation got out of control, it started off with 2 people falling in love, one elf one human, The other Elves, saw the elf leaving the culture, thought it was going to give up secerts so they killed them. Which upset the locals as 'an elf' killed a human for no good reason. Which promted to kill the elf in the same manner. Then which started out into an open conflct. So in reality its BOTH THERE FUALTS. More than 1 person can be the blame of a death or incedent.

 

Maybe the humans over reacted, but SO DID THE ELVES. stop trying to say its 1 sides fualt over anther. And if I where to put the blame on 1 side, It would be the Elves, because they are the ones who killed someone first. They shot the first shot

 

There was a lot of tension between elves and humans much before that. Sparks doesn't do much when there isn't enough fuel. If US specialists hunt down a traitor in French soil who is going to tell all French secrets and accidentally kill an innocent this never leads to war unless before this incident many others happened as well. All opinions stemming from ignoring the tensions and focusing on what happened at red crossing cannot be taken seriously. Usually when someone is killed accidentally, immediate mobs don't form to blindly attack in revenge. This shows the huge amount of distrust and tension. 

[Steelcan]

So far, I'm just seeing elf fans acknowledge that the elves weren't innocent, that both sides were at fault, and that both sides contributed to the violence and war that followed. Meanwhile, I'm just seeing human fans completely absolve all humans of all moral responsibility and contribution, claim the humans were completely innocent, the elves completely guilty, and humans completely justified in every single thing done to the elves since the formation of the Dales while the elves are not justified in anything they ever said or did.

 

Who's biased, white-washing, and cherry-picking which side of history now?

"Both parties are responsible for the build up to the war, no doubt about that."

 

you are joking yes?

 

I get that you have an axe to grind against anyone who disagrees with you, but flat out ignoring posts that don't fit your preconception that everyone is completely racist against the Dalish is a tad irksome.

 

Or are you just trolling?

[Lulupab]

Given that this Eluvian most likely connects to the Black City, all she'd accomplish is establishing a direct line to whatever other monstrosities lie there.

 

Admittedly this is speculation, pure and simple, but it seems to hold a good deal of water

 

Though its not the same Eluvian, she creates another from scratch. That's why it doesn't work because she needs to create/find a key for it as well.

[Colonelkillabee]

So far, I'm just seeing elf fans acknowledge that the elves weren't innocent, that both sides were at fault, and that both sides contributed to the violence and war that followed. Meanwhile, I'm just seeing human fans completely absolve all humans of all moral responsibility and contribution, claim the humans were completely innocent, the elves completely guilty, and humans completely justified in every single thing done to the elves since the formation of the Dales while the elves are not justified in anything they ever said or did.

 

Who's biased, white-washing, and cherry-picking which side of history now?

You haven't been reading very closely then. I know my post certainly didn't say that.

 

I'll go ahead and try and come to a compromise. Which isn't really a compromise, but simply restating what I've already said more clearly so people will stop saying this hopefully. Both sides are at fault for human and elven tensions.

 

When it comes to the war however? Both sides are at fault. But NOT equally. More blame can be pointed in my opinion to the elves. Does that mean the elves had no cause to do what they did? Were they completely wrong? No. Like I said before, if I were the elves, I sure as hell wouldn't give a **** about human borders and rules after everything that happened between the two. But having cause doesn't mean you are justified, and they were the ones that ultimately pushed things to war.

[LobselVith8]

Though its not the same Eluvian, she creates another from scratch. That's why it doesn't work because she needs to create/find a key for it as well.

 

True, it's a different Eluvian, one she constructed with her painstaking research (and she incorporates one shard she took from the Elven Ruins into it's construction). Interestingly enough, Merrill's Eluvian (likely it's counterpart) can be seen in the Crossroads.

[Steelcan]

There was a lot of tension between elves and humans much before that. Sparks doesn't do much when there isn't enough fuel. If US specialists hunt down a traitor in French soil who is going to tell all French secrets and accidentally kill an innocent this never leads to war unless before this incident many others happened as well. All opinions stemming from ignoring the tensions and focusing on what happened at red crossing cannot be taken seriously. Usually when someone is killed accidentally, immediate mobs don't form to blindly attack in revenge. This shows the huge amount of distrust and tension. 

All true, however, the escalation of that tension into an all out war is another matter, and the elves were the ones who raised their banners and invaded

[Addai]

If you're going to say that Red Crossing was the single cause of the destruction of the Dales, then you're ignoring the codex that says the Orlesians wanted that land all along and were looking for a reason to take it. No, there was nothing inevitable about what happened. The elves massacred a human town, and the humans destroyed the elves' entire way of life and called it a holy crusade. Both are at fault. The only ones not admitting that are selling something. Likely, forum shenanigans.

[Insaner Robot]

And yet, that group of humans managed to kill the fallen human's elven lover, who was formerly an Emerald Knight.

 

 

Yes he was a knight, he was also apparently unarmed and grieving over his lovers death. His death was wrong and it should not have happened.

 

 

The group of humans is being absolved by people like you, who decide to vilify the elves despite humans and elves both committing wrongdoing during this incident. You are basically excusing them for committing murder, and trying to kill an entire group of elves for the accidental killing of one human by one member of the elven group.

 In the quoted paragraph you're replying to here I actually say humans "are responsible for the death of an unarmed elf, and probably numerous other events leading up to the then current events.". How is that absolving them? Simply because I don't hold them responsible for an attack on there ow village?

 

 

Keeper Hawen's clan says they discovered that humans and elves were both responsible for the inception of the war, and decide to extend a peace offering to the town of Red Crossing - a halla, one of the most sacred animals of the People (one they believe guide the dead into the afterlife).

Yes, however, both being responsible for hostilities leading up to the war. Is not the same as both being responsible for attacking red crossing. And that is why the halla was sent to red crossing in particular and not orlais in general.

 

 

You're ignoring what's explicitly stated when the Inquisitor gives the scroll to the Dalish - which is that both sides were wrong.

I have repeatedly said both sides are responsible for events leading up to red crossing, and I believe equally responsible. However red crossing is currently the only documented event we have learned of. And the hostile emerald knights were responsible for that.

[umadcommander]

heh, these threads are the reason i still bother to come here

 

[Steelcan]

If you're going to say that Red Crossing was the single cause of the destruction of the Dales, then you're ignoring the codex that says the Orlesians wanted that land all along and were looking for a reason to take it. No, there was nothing inevitable about what happened. The elves massacred a human town, and the humans destroyed the elves' entire way of life and called it a holy crusade. Both are at fault. The only ones not admitting that are selling something. Likely, forum shenanigans.

I'm not arguing about the end result of the war, I'm talking about how the start of the war is more the fault of the elves than their human victims.

 

If you'd like to debate about the end of the war, I'm all ears

[Colonelkillabee]

If you're going to say that Red Crossing was the single cause of the destruction of the Dales, then you're ignoring the codex that says the Orlesians wanted that land all along and were looking for a reason to take it. No, there was nothing inevitable about what happened. The elves massacred a human town, and the humans destroyed the elves' entire way of life and called it a holy crusade. Both are at fault. The only ones not admitting that are selling something. Likely, forum shenanigans.

The only thing i disagree with is people saying they were "equally" at fault. And not everyone who disagrees with you is up to shenanigans.

 

The humans overreacted from fear, most certainly. But there has never been a case in the history of man where anything can be said to be "equal". Ever.

 

The red crossing wasn't the single cause. It wasn't even the straw that broke the camel's back. What was, was when the elves decided to push past red crossing.

[Steelcan]

The red crossing wasn't the single cause. It wasn't even the straw that broke the camel's back. What was, was when the elves decided to push past red crossing.

well its not like the elves could back down after invading sovereign Orlesian territory and putting a town to the torch, by that point the dice are cast

[LobselVith8]

The only thing i disagree with is people saying they were "equally" at fault. And not everyone who disagrees with you is up to shenanigans.

 

The humans overreacted from fear, most certainly. But there has never been a case in the history of man where anything can be said to be "equal". Ever.

 

The red crossing wasn't the single cause. It wasn't even the straw that broke the camel's back. What was, was when the elves decided to push past red crossing.

 

Orlais declared war against the Dales after the incident at Red Crossing, and the two were fighting one another at that point.

[Colonelkillabee]

well its not like the elves could back down after invading sovereign Orlesian territory and putting a town to the torch, by that point the dice are cast

Indeed, but the point is still the same. What got the exalted march was when the humans grew desperate as the elves got close to Val Royeaux. If they didn't advance, I doubt they'd have gotten quite the same response, not that it ultimately matters. But them attacking red crossing wasn't what got them that response, even if one wants to argue that this was the point of no return.

[Steelcan]

Orlais declared war against the Dales after the incident at Red Crossing, and the two were fighting one another at that point.

You can't really not declare war when your villages have been attacked and hostile troops are pouring into your land

[Colonelkillabee]

Orlais declared war against the Dales after the incident at Red Crossing, and the two were fighting one another at that point.

And the incident at red crossing was the elves' fault, even if it wasn't intentional. So we're back at square one. Especially when your land is taken. It's to be expected.

 

Lets not go ****** for tat on this, or launch into semantics. Whether you think the elves wear the black hats (I don't) or not, more blame for what happened then on goes to the elves. For the war, NOT for elves being oppressed afterwards.

[LobselVith8]

And the incident at red crossing was the elves' fault, even if it wasn't intentional. So we're back at square one. Especially when your land is taken. It's to be expected.

 

I don't see it that way when humans and elves both committed wrongdoing. Keeper Hawen and his clan didn't see it that way, either, since they say that both sides are wrong. When you have elves and humans committing murder, I don't see how both sides can't be blamed.

 

Lets not go ****** for tat on this, or launch into semantics. Whether you think the elves wear the black hats (I don't) or not, more blame for what happened then on goes to the elves. For the war, NOT for elves being oppressed afterwards.

 

It's a complicated mess, because there has been issues between humans and elves long before Red Crossing. At the onset of the scroll, we read about an elf being murdered by humans (before the team of Emerald Knights even headed to Red Crossing), there are codex entries about the templars trespassing into the Dales, and there are the issues Drakon had with the elves (when he was conquering his neighbors to establish the Orlesian Empire) that prevented his expansion into the Free Marches.

 

At this point, this discussion is simply becoming circular and unproductive.

[Steelcan]

I don't see it that way when humans and elves both committed wrongdoing. Keeper Hawen and his clan didn't see it that way, either, since they say that both sides are wrong. When you have elves and humans committing murder, I don't see how both sides can't be blamed.

 

Who raised their armies first and invaded?

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't see it that way when humans and elves both committed wrongdoing. Keeper Hawen and his clan didn't see it that way, either, since they say that both sides are wrong. When you have elves and humans committing murder, I don't see how both sides can't be blamed.

 

 

It's a complicated mess, because there has been issues between humans and elves long before Red Crossing. At the onset of the scroll, we read about an elf being murdered by humans (before the team of Emerald Knights even headed to Red Crossing), there are codex entries about the templars trespassing into the Dales, and there are the issues Drakon had with the elves (when he was conquering his neighbors to establish the Orlesian Empire) that prevented his expansion into the Free Marches.

 

At this point, this discussion is simply becoming circular and unproductive.

I'm not saying they can't be blamed, I just don't think they can be blamed equally, or nearly enough for it to matter when we're talking about red crossing and the advancement to war afterwards.

 

When it comes to the tensions before, I think that more or less we can throw blame around evenly. When it comes to how the humans oppressed the elves after, that is solely on the humans. I'm not saying they didn't have cause, because revenge is something I understand. But I don't say the humans were justified, and for me there is a key difference.

 

But red crossing and the advancement to war, even though no, it wasn't all the big mean elves' fault for it, they are who I primarily blame.

 

I do agree that this discussion is rather pointless at this point, because the main point is the oppression of the elves and their treatment after. And on that point, no that is not ever justifiable. But there is cause for it. Initially anyway. Same as how while the elves are at fault for red crossing and aren't justified for pushing to war, they too had cause. Presently though, no, humans don't really have an excuse for how poorly they're treating them.