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Reasons the Dalish have it so wrong


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#326
Lulupab

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All true, however, the escalation of that tension into an all out war is another matter, and the elves were the ones who raised their banners and invaded

 

It really never mattered who attacked first when a war was started due to tensions reaching their climax. So tell me, who started world war? Most countries had a lot of economical problems and previous tensions were adding up. Apart from the fact that Elven forces were much closer to the border than Orlesian army so they could attack faster, after what happened at red crossing war was already started. Humans killed an elf before the team of emerald knights killed the human (the whole scroll thingy). Orlais sent templars to Dales, naturally there was no circles or such things at the Dales.

 

Do you think Anders started mage rebellion? He didn't, the spark could be anything. Before anything could be done about Kirkwall all mages rebelled in other circles, it was a thousand year old tension. In this case Templars killed first. Yet you don't see anyone blaming them more than the mages. There are so many variables here, what if an elven commander went corrupt and ordered the attack? What if Orlais was baiting because Drakon wanted Dales to be able to expand further? There are too many what ifs and variables. 

 

I have seen many people here (perhaps you too as I don't remember) saying the elves more than deserved their fate and this was before DA:I. With the revealed information the only thing keeping me from absolute disgust is the fact that this is a fantasy setting. The elves were treated MUCH WORSE at the early days, treated worse than vermin. Like there is no real life event to relate to this( not on this scale anyway), its way too monstrous.


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#327
Dean_the_Young

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I'm referring to them as "one" because the elves are one race. They have as a race suffered the result of the Exalted March by being divided, those less fortunate forced into slums for 700 years. The history you so want the elves to forget caused this divide of City and Dalish elves. Now the city elves are forced to play by the chantry rules or face punishment. They are not given the luxury to live and believe as they want.

 

I have never claimed the elves should forget history. I have asserted that the Dalish shouldn't practice it as they do. I'm a great fan of history, but there's a clear difference between 'being aware of the distant past' and 'letting the distant past define you.'

 

You're equating races and polities. You are right that the Exalted March and fall of the divides made the distinction- but the distinction must continue be made after then. The Dalish elves are a different polity from the city elves (who themselves are not a unified polity), and the experiences of one can not be transcribed on the other. The Dalish themselves do not identify with the experiences of the City Elves- to argue that they face the same discrimination and prospects as other elves is not only objectively wrong, it is not even an argument or belief the Dalish have.

 

Nor are the city elves at this time, and for an indeterminate time going backward, being forced to believe in Andrastianism Or Else. The Chantry does not govern them or set out the rules for them- the local human nobles and kingdoms do. The elves do not under theocratic pressure- that charge would be more applicable in the aftermath of the Dales war, and possibly during the Dales themselves when Andrastianism was apparently strictly forbidden.
 

 

As for the Dalish, true they are not as persecuted as the city elves, but they live a harsh life in a different way; forced to defend themselves at all times and unable to stay in one place for long.

 

 

Such is their choice, and in some cases such is their responsibility.

 

 

And the reason for that all is, surprise surprise, the past. Is it so hard to understand why they cling so desperately to the past when they live the consequences each and every day? There are of course those who would claim they brought it upon themselves, in which case they can be safely dismissed as trolls.

 

 

I understand a number of desperate and flawed rationalizations for bad decisions and policies. It doesn't change the nature of such choices being, well, bad. Understanding is not validation.

 

The Dalish of the modern era obviously had no fault in bring about the context they grew up in. The same applies to the non-Dalish, and the non-elven, and everyone else who was born at the same time. I would hope we can all agree that people are not guilty for things set in motion before they were born.

 

But the further you go back in the past, the more opportunity, and responsibility, the Dalish can claim for their current state of relations- not solely, but enough to claim responsible for themselves rather than merely the impotent victims of outside circumstances. No one else makes the Dalish hold their current cultural views of humans and lesser elves- no one else made the Dalish choose a tribal diaspora rather than subjugation, conversion, and assimilation like most elves- no one made the Dales put a good part of Orlais to the sword- no one made the Dales trash relations with their neighbors by withholding aid during a Blight even as a city burned- no one else made the Dales close off their borders to even peaceful missionary activity- no one made the ancient elves fight amongst themselves, raise the veil, and fatally weaken their own civilization. These were all choices that elves made, not dictates or requirements imposed by outsiders.

 

Outside actors exist, and are important. There is certainly no 'deserve' in any of the circumstances for any of the elves- no argument of karma, no moral justification, nada. But outside actors are not alone in determining the shape and context and history of elven experiences in Thedas- and the Last of the Free Elves, being as free as they are, have more hand in what they choose to do than most.

 

 

How will they move forward with so little they know? For the elves to have a reliable and stable future, they have to learn and put to use what was forgotten. They tell stories of their gods, but how much of them is true, and missing the complete picture? Without information like that, they will only build upon lies and misinformation. They will have to reexamine some of their beliefs and adapt it to their lifestyle. But for them to do that reliably, we have to know more than we have learned in this game, because there are still parts of the lore that doesn't make sense. So, the past is still important, no matter how distasteful it may be.

 

 

Build new things, rather than reinvent the mythic old. It really is that simple.

 

In-universe, pretty much every human nation and culture in Thedas has existed for comparable periods as the post-Tevinter slavery elves. All human cultures were built on the ruins and remnants of Tevinter- and yet each Human nation has become a unique and distinct culture in their own right. The Dales created a new state and traditions and culture in three hundred years after Tevinter slavery- the Dalish have had seven hundred years, and not having a state doesn't mean that they can't create new practices or traditions.

 

Heck, Build anything, rather than have a social strategy of 'wait for the humans (and presumably Qunari and Darkspawn) to kill eachother off so that we will be left the sole survivors.' Create a new culture, going forward, rather than be dependent on an old and raggedly one with so many missing blanks. They don't need to base themselves off an identity of The Last Free Elves Who Will Regain The Utopian Past. There's nothing requiring them to do that or perish. Their culture is a result of choices, many of which are their own.

 

 

 

 

Also we don't know what Merril's mirror may do yet. If you were her friend, she doesn't destroy it after the events with her clan. As we have learned, eluvians are valuable for some key reason we don't understand fully. Restoring it cost a terrible price, but it may yet play a role.

 

 

This is a great appeal to the Farmer's Son parable (Fortune or Misfortune), but rather irrelevant to the results to date. Merrill's expected goals were vague, but unreservadly positive- Merrill's results were certainly not. Pushing the goal line a few decades for a turn around doesn't really change the occurance in the game itself, which was the frame of reference being raised.



#328
Nightdragon8

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Who the Emerald Knight thought was armed. Hence, why I said it was accidental. It's not like the Emerald Knight set out to kill the woman until she thought she was a threat to her group. I also said both sides are to blame, so I don't see what your point is. Both sides were wrong.

 

 

Yeah, it was a messy situation where both sides made mistakes.

 

 

You do realize that I've repeatedly said both sides are at fault, right?

Sorry didn't know you where voted repersititve of the forum. My mistake.

 

Yes 1 person vs a group of people... I guess IEDs existed back then as well, so they though she had what? A lyrium grenade or something?

 

Basicly what you are saying is that a group of warroirs where scared of a person caring 'something' they thought was what? A knife? sword?

 

 

You don't "Accdently" shoot someone, the very first thing you learn about dealing with 'guns' is that YOU DON'T POINT THEM AT PEOPLE, Unless you plan to kill them. You treat every unloaded gun/rifle as if it was loaded. I'm pretty damn sure its the same with archery. Because even target arrows can kill someone. And yes I shoot both guns and archery.

 

This whole "Opps I killed someone on accedent" needs to be gone. THey clearly had the intent to do harm, otherwise they would not have drawn the bows and aimed it at the woman.

 

So its now down to a "Mistake" A very costly Mistake. Was it justifible?... personally no, 1 person with a melee weapon vs a person with a bow at range... should have figured out what was going on. Not to mention most likly unarmored.

 

My guess is that 'they' or He/she called out warnings in Elvish, which she didn't understand

 

If i where to place a bet somewhere I would say the person on guard duty at the time, was the FNG, told not to let anyone get close to them.



#329
Colonelkillabee

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Personally, I wholeheartedly agree on the notion that them "accidentally killing the girl" is bullshit. Especially with arrows. But unfortunately that can't be proven, and trying to make an argument with something that is as biased as people saying "they're equally to blame" is just not good for discussion.

 

So yes, I think they killed the girl purposefully. But I can't prove it, which is why I always throw in an "intentional or not". For all I know, the elves were jumpy being in human lands, and flung a quick arrow at the human running at them. Elves are rather handy with bows. Don't think it's likely, but it's possible. Still shouldn't have been there in the first place though.



#330
Steelcan

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It really never mattered who attacked first when a war was started due to tensions reaching their climax. So tell me, who started world war? Most countries had a lot of economical problems and previous tensions were adding up. Apart from the fact that Elven forces were much closer to the border than Orlesian army so they could attack faster, after what happened at red crossing war was already started. Humans killed an elf before the team of emerald knights killed the human (the whole scroll thingy). Orlais sent templars to Dales, naturally there was no circles or such things at the Dales.

Source on those templars, from someone who wasn't born centuries after the fact?

 

And tell me, who launched the actual war first?  The elf being killed by an armed mob, and said mob being slaughtered by armed knights all fall into the tensions leading up to it.  But the elves started the actual war, and you know it

 

 

As for the rest of your post, completely irrelevant



#331
Dean_the_Young

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It really never mattered who attacked first when a war was started due to tensions reaching their climax. So tell me, who started world war? Most countries had a lot of economical problems and previous tensions were adding up. Apart from the fact that Elven forces were much closer to the border than Orlesian army so they could attack faster, after what happened at red crossing war was already started. Humans killed an elf before the team of emerald knights killed the human (the whole scroll thingy). Orlais sent templars to Dales, naturally there was no circles or such things at the Dales.

 

Do you think Anders started mage rebellion? He didn't, the spark could be anything. Before anything could be done about Kirkwall all mages rebelled in other circles, it was a thousand year old tension. In this case Templars killed first. Yet you don't see anyone blaming them more than the mages. There are so many variables here, what if an elven commander went corrupt and ordered the attack? What if Orlais was baiting because Drakon wanted Dales to be able to expand further? There are too many what ifs and variables. 

 

I have seen many people here (perhaps you too as I don't remember) saying the elves more than deserved their fate. With the revealed information the only thing keeping me from absolute disgust is the fact that this is a fantasy setting. The elves were treated MUCH WORSE at the early days, treated worse than vermin. Like there is no real life event to relate to this( not on this scale anyway), its way too monstrous.

 

Your analogy misses the point that while some events are gradually escalating events that can't be tied to a single act (the Mage Rebellion), other conflicts absolutely do have major escalating acts that mark the transition from peace to war. In WW1, it was the July Crisis and the ultimatum between Austria-Hungary and Serbia over the assassination. In the fall of the Dales, it was the events of Red Crossing- an incident which turned the decades/centuries of cold relations and the occasional border deaths into a decade-long war.

 

Red Crossing wasn't a marginal escalation of ******-for-tat, or an incident in which no one could be held to blame. A major settlement isn't a reasonable response or justified retaliatory target for a lone death. The forces involved in the massacre weren't unsanctioned irregulars or drunkards- they were official and legitimate military forces of the Dales who deliberately violated the border. And the response to Red Crossing was likewise completely out of proportion- a major invasion driving for the capital of Orlais, on the causus belli of... 'sorry we sacked your town, better conquer you with these standing armies on your border before you retaliate for our massacre of your people?'

 

That is not a war in which initiator is in question. It was the Dales, full stop- Red Crossing was not justified by a defector crisis, and an invasion into the heart of Orlais was not provoked by the Dales' own violation.


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#332
thesuperdarkone2

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Source on those templars, from someone who wasn't born centuries after the fact?

 

And tell me, who launched the actual war first?  The elf being killed by an armed mob, and said mob being slaughtered by armed knights all fall into the tensions leading up to it.  But the elves started the actual war, and you know it

 

 

As for the rest of your post, completely irrelevant

There is a weapon found in the arbor wilds whose description says it belonged to a Templar who fought in the March on The Dales and was sainted for killing lots of elves.



#333
Nightdragon8

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There is a weapon found in the arbor wilds whose description says it belonged to a Templar who fought in the March on The Dales and was sainted for killing lots of elves.

And?

 

Thats called glorifcation of war. Has nothing to do with how the war started.

 

Just because a culture glorificed some weapon for killing alot of people, doesn't make that culture "evil" or bad.

 

Because I can get seriously dark about current popular religions if you really want to go down that road.



#334
Colonelkillabee

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Templars killing elves certainly doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination to believe. It's mostly irrelevant to the main issue anyway, so I don't see a need to deny it one way or the other. *shrug*



#335
LobselVith8

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Sorry didn't know you where voted repersititve of the forum. My mistake.

 

You could simply try reading my posts before responding to things I've never said; it would make our conversations much more productive. When I say both sides were responsible, and you act like I claimed only one side was responsible, it's clear that you didn't read the multiple posts that I wrote where I said elves and humans were to blame for the inception of the war.

 

Yes 1 person vs a group of people... I guess IEDs existed back then as well, so they though she had what? A lyrium grenade or something?

 

Basicly what you are saying is that a group of warroirs where scared of a person caring 'something' they thought was what? A knife? sword?

 

I said the Emerald Knight thought the human was armed... because that's what happened. I also said both sides were to blame, and I didn't think this misunderstanding excused their culpability in the tragedy.


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#336
Steelcan

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There is a weapon found in the arbor wilds whose description says it belonged to a Templar who fought in the March on The Dales and was sainted for killing lots of elves.

But is that from before the war or after?

 

If its from after, its completely and absolutely irrelevant



#337
LobselVith8

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There is a weapon found in the arbor wilds whose description says it belonged to a Templar who fought in the March on The Dales and was sainted for killing lots of elves.

 

"Ser Mhemet, a Rivaini templar, fought in the Exalted March on the Dales for one reason: his love of killing elves, which pushed him to so many victories, the Chantry elevated him to Anointed after his death. To this day, Halamshiral elves consider his name a curse."



#338
Lulupab

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Source on those templars, from someone who wasn't born centuries after the fact?

 

And tell me, who launched the actual war first?  The elf being killed by an armed mob, and said mob being slaughtered by armed knights all fall into the tensions leading up to it.  But the elves started the actual war, and you know it

 

 

As for the rest of your post, completely irrelevant

 

That's not how i see it. And seeing how you call the way the largest war in human history started "irrelevant" shows how our opinion can differ. it didn't matter who attacked first on WW because there was way too many tension with agendas behind them, if not today, tomorrow was inevitable because no one was doing anything to fix it. In this case the tensions are known and the agendas are like elves not trading/helping humans in anyway or Drakon wanting Dales to enable more expansion.

 

Your analogy misses the point that while some events are gradually escalating events that can't be tied to a single act (the Mage Rebellion), other conflicts absolutely do have major escalating acts that mark the transition from peace to war. In WW1, it was the July Crisis and the ultimatum between Austria-Hungary and Serbia over the assassination. In the fall of the Dales, it was the events of Red Crossing- an incident which turned the decades/centuries of cold relations and the occasional border deaths into a decade-long war.

 

Red Crossing wasn't a marginal escalation of ******-for-tat, or an incident in which no one could be held to blame. A major settlement isn't a reasonable response or justified retaliatory target for a lone death. The forces involved in the massacre weren't unsanctioned irregulars or drunkards- they were official and legitimate military forces of the Dales who deliberately violated the border. And the response to Red Crossing was likewise completely out of proportion- a major invasion driving for the capital of Orlais, on the causus belli of... 'sorry we sacked your town, better conquer you with these standing armies on your border before you retaliate for our massacre of your people?'

 

That is not a war in which initiator is in question. It was the Dales, full stop- Red Crossing was not justified by a defector crisis, and an invasion into the heart of Orlais was not provoked by the Dales' own violation.

 

Actually the mage rebellion can be tied to events of meeting which went south. The problem is in all examples including the red crossing, it couldn't be helped. As I said to steelcan, no one was doing anything to fix things. It was going to end in war, one way or another. If not today then tomorrow. Focusing on details doesn't benefit anyone and causes circular arguments. Both sides can be blamed and the blame is not countable, there is no "more" or "less" blame. There is only blame.



#339
Steelcan

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Yet the elves started the war itself.

 

Tensions ran on both sides, but the elves were the ones marching into Orlesian territory first, they sacked the first town, they sacked Monstimmard, they marched on Val Royeaux



#340
Steelcan

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Actually the mage rebellion can be tied to events of meeting which went south. The problem is in all examples including the red crossing, it couldn't be helped. As I said to steelcan, no one was doing anything to fix things. It was going to end in war, one way or another. If not today then tomorrow. Focusing on details doesn't benefit anyone and causes circular arguments. Both sides can be blamed and the blame is not countable, there is no "more" or "less" blame. There is only blame.

Absolute bull

 

War was not inevitable, there were clear steps that could have been taken to de-escalate tensions, such as re-opening the border, pulling troops away, perhaps reparations to the cities they allowed the darkspawn to sack.

 

There is no such thing as inevitable war, there are always ways to de-escalate


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#341
Lulupab

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War was not inevitable, there were clear steps that could have been taken to de-escalate tensions, such as re-opening the border, pulling troops away, perhaps reparations to the cities they allowed the darkspawn to sack.

 

Nonsense. NO ONE had them in mind, nor ever tried to do them. 

 

Yet the elves started the war itself.

 

Tensions ran on both sides, but the elves were the ones marching into Orlesian territory first, they sacked the first town, they sacked Monstimmard, they marched on Val Royeaux

 

Considering the chantry blamed Dales for every magical incident and even accused of sacrificing humans for elven gods, I doubt it (DA:O codex). The elves made the first move because the Dales army was much close to the border, or at least its on of the reason. After red crossing Orlais was one the move as well. It didn't wait helplessly for elves to march on Montsimmard. You do realize it took almost a decade.



#342
Ahalvern

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Man there is no end when it comes to Red Crossing. The short time I've been a member of this forum, I've learned to avoid it whenever the topic turns to this.

 

I have one thing to say, if the elves were meant to be portrayed as the ones to blame only, they would have depicted them as the woodland savages with blood dripping down their mouths instead of going into detail how tensions were strong between the both parties, which led to an elf being murdered for wandering too close to a human settlement. It pretty much tells that humans saw the elves as savages; the same reason they attacked them when the elves came to Red Crossing for the knight who abandoned them.

 

Whatever, no one is convincing anyone it seems. Carry on with opinions.


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#343
EmissaryofLies

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Whatever, no one is convincing anyone it seems. Carry on with opinions.

 

And there we have it! The Bioware Social Network to a T.


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#344
Ahalvern

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And there we have it! The Bioware Social Network to a T.

 

I get the feeling I should be sad... but I'm not surprised? :P


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#345
Colonelkillabee

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Absolute bull

 

War was not inevitable, there were clear steps that could have been taken to de-escalate tensions, such as re-opening the border, pulling troops away, perhaps reparations to the cities they allowed the darkspawn to sack.

 

There is no such thing as inevitable war, there are always ways to de-escalate

Yep. Saying "Oh well something was gonna happen anyway" is a clear admission of guilt. Every single time.



#346
Master Warder Z_

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To apologize would be admitting that they've done something wrong.


Which in this instance they didn't.

#347
LOLandStuff

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The elves could have stopped at Red Crossing if those peasants were so dangerous instead of pushing until they sacked Val Royeaux.


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#348
Hellion Rex

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Oh boy, where to begin with this one.

tumblr_n12xexNrlN1trmkp7o1_500.gif


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#349
TheJediSaint

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Oh boy, where to begin with this one.

Spoiler

It's like nuclear war.  The only way to win is not to play.


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#350
Colonelkillabee

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Which in this instance they didn't.

Indeed. Clearly even the Dalish agree, that at least as far as Red Crossing goes, they were wrong.