1503 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

There were no other sects of Chantry. Being Andrastian and a part of the Chantry are two very different things. 

 

Lulupab is referencing the multiple Cults of the Maker that existed at the time.

[Master Warder Z_]

anyway I don't think anyone's saying current elf oppression is right.

Weeeell

[Colonelkillabee]

Weeeell

Well if you are, I wash my hands of you.

[raging_monkey]

Well if you are, I wash my hands of you.

*passes soap*

[Master Warder Z_]

Well if you are, I wash my hands of you.

I'm not.

I find it saddening.

I also accept it as something that is unlikely to change either north or south.

If you were around some months ago, you would have seen my proposed elven vessal state idea.

[Lulupab]

Citation required.

 
Is it really? Andrastian religion was merely a cult at first and had no center and every major city had its own way of worshiping the maker. Of course they differed with each other but Drakon conquered cities and forced his goals and his way of the cult unto others. it was HE who created the holy office and it was HE who decided there should be a divine and it should be a woman. Before him none of this was included in Andrastian religion.

[Colonelkillabee]

*passes soap*

Lol thank you Gotta smell fresh when I step off the crazy train.

 

The initial oppression was a response to reasonable distrust and fear, even though they took it rather far. But I don't really blame them much, if another race of beings just tried to invade me, aliens, or whatever, that's a major threat to my race and I'm going to take harsh steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

But this many years out, there's no such threat, and they're already a part of your society. At this point, the elven oppression is just picking at the downtrodden because you can and for the actions of people in ancient times. Which is stupid.

[Nightdragon8]

.... I'm going to add fuel to the fire because "Why the hell not" Tinfoil hat time!!!

 

If you really think about it, its all Treventors fualt and thus everything that has happened is some seriously planned out happening that this was all going to happen. So they planned for it. TO make sure the elves and humans never got along. I would bet the women did have a weapon but it was magic and as soon as she died the 'weapon' went away. Thus made it look like she was armed and the Evles where jusitfied to attack her.

 

And in reality the Elf never fell in love with a human because elves can't fall for humans right? Blood magic was controling the elf, to be in love with the human to and to 'follow the chant" because i mean thats 2 bird with 1 stone right? Not only does the trventor mage get to prevent there enaimes from becoming friends but to also put blame on a religon that is clearly against Treventor.

 

So really both sides fell to a Treventor plot.

 

(wow I made all of this up on the fly scary, looks like the tinfoil is strong in me)

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm not.

I find it saddening.

I also accept it as something that is unlikely to change either north or south.

If you were around some months ago, you would have seen my proposed elven vessal state idea.

Ah k, good, lol. Well, since we're at it, and since I apparently missed the posts, who here actually thinks that the oppression of elves in current times today is morally justified and right? Not what caused it, not what happened in the past, but currently? I keep hearing people say these people exist, but I haven't seen it outright, so lets have a show of hands.

[Master Warder Z_]

Is it really?

Yup.

It's never stated anywhere he warred against Andrastians only that he united the segmented cult of the Maker into the Chantry.

Your headcannon will not suffice as proof.

[Lulupab]

Yup.

It's never stated anywhere he warred against Andrastians only that he united the segmented cult of the Maker into the Chantry.

Your headcannon will not suffice as proof.

Its not headcanon.

- Codex entry: The History of the Chantry: Chapter 4
- Dragon Age logo - new Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, pp. 53, 56, 113-114, 157
- Mike Searly. "Traveler's Guide: Thedas History Timeline". Dragon Age: Origins: Collector's Edition: Prima Official Game Guide.
- Codex entry: The Founding of the Chantry
- Codex entry: The Orlesian Empire
- Dragon Age logo - new Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, pp. 60-66, 157
- Dragon Age logo - new Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, p. 67
- Codex entry: The Bow of the Golden Sun
- Mike Searly. "Traveler's Guide: Fereldan Geography". Dragon Age: Origins: Collector's Edition: Prima Official Game Guide.

Drakon was a fervent believer in the Maker and often claimed that the Maker had personally charged him with spreading the Chant of Light. He was instrumental in turning the cult of the Maker (which had no central leadership at the time) into the Chantry. Because of his actions, he was declared "Anointed" by the Chantry and is revered as much as Andraste by many of its members. Drakon was also a brilliant general, leading the newly founded empire to rapid expansion.


In the year -15 Ancient, the young and ambitious king of the city-state of Orlais began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, declaring that by its completion he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world. In -11 he began a series of attacks in the Heartlands aimed at uniting the warring city-states of the south.

The temple was completed in -3 Ancient and Drakon was crowned emperor in Val Royeaux, having conquered several neighboring city-states and forcing the submission of others. His first act as emperor was to declare the Chantry as the established religion of the Empire. He created the holy office of the Divine, and after protracted elections Olessa of Montsimmard was proclaimed the first Divine three years later, taking the name Justinia. The event marked the beginning of the Chantry calendar at 1:1 Divine.

 

[EmissaryofLies]

Lol thank you Gotta smell fresh when I step off the crazy train.

 

The initial oppression was a response to reasonable distrust and fear, even though they took it rather far. But I don't really blame them much, if another race of beings just tried to invade me, aliens, or whatever, that's a major threat to my race and I'm going to take harsh steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

But this many years out, there's no such threat, and they're already a part of your society. At this point, the elven oppression is just picking at the downtrodden because you can and for the actions of people in ancient times. Which is stupid.

 

"Very few, however honorable, release power they have won." - Solas

 

The only way that elves improved their station is by wresting it away from the empire through the Inquisition and Briala.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Lol thank you Gotta smell fresh when I step off the crazy train.

 

The initial oppression was a response to reasonable distrust and fear, even though they took it rather far. But I don't really blame them much, if another race of beings just tried to invade me, aliens, or whatever, that's a major threat to my race and I'm going to take harsh steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

But this many years out, there's no such threat, and they're already a part of your society. At this point, the elven oppression is just picking at the downtrodden because you can and for the actions of people in ancient times. Which is stupid.

Even mother giselle admits that much of the chantry's discrimination against other races is purely political in nature, especially since Andraste fought alongside Shartan 

[Colonelkillabee]

"Very few, however honorable, release power they have won." - Solas

 

The only way that elves improved their station is by wresting it away from the empire through the Inquisition and Briala.

Indeed. Not much else to say on that point besides it explains rather well why this still goes on. Unfortunately, I supported Gaspard and Gaspard alone. Partly because I like puppet Emperors in my pocket.

[Master Warder Z_]

Its not headcanon.

It apparently is because it's unmentioned in that entire post, his expansion of his Kingdom brought the Maker to Orlais, nothing was said the belief was already present among his rivals.

[Master Warder Z_]

"Very few, however honorable, release power they have won." - Solas

The only way that elves improved their station is by wresting it away from the empire through the Inquisition and Briala.

Insanity.

[Lulupab]

Ah k, good, lol. Well, since we're at it, and since I apparently missed the posts, who here actually thinks that the oppression of elves in current times today is morally justified and right? Not what caused it, not what happened in the past, but currently? I keep hearing people say these people exist, but I haven't seen it outright, so lets have a show of hands.

 

Of course they deny it, don't be silly. Although none talks about morals, its about necessity in their eyes. There are ways given to help elves in DA:I. Yet you can find people arguing against these decision for reasons of their own. For example reconciling Celene and Briala not only is the best ending for Orlais according to epilogue (there is stability) it also helps the elves. But no the warmongering Gaspard is best choice because elves as target dummies for his Chevaliers is necessary. Chevaliers need to train, right?

 

Or people claim Elves should never get rights because then humans will have more rivals in almost everything and it will cause chaos. Is this reason enough to oppress the elves?

 

There are several other examples, none talk about morals, its "necessity". Or they spew headcanon things like Warder does that will never happen. Just because you come up with idea (that will never happen) and accept the necessity of elves living like that does not exonerate you from having the option to help elves but argue against this decision. I mean most of us make all the decisions to see their consequences but people tend to defend one of them.

[Addai]

Wait, people are disputing that there were Andrastian cults prior to the Chantry's organization? Those and the old god cults are what led to the original Inquisition.

David Gaider interview:

DG: Yes. As a matter of fact the Templars were once all part of a group called the Inquisition. There was an Inquisition in Thedas. It existed around the time that the Chantry started to come to be. This was a time after the First Blight, after Andraste's March, when there was chaos everywhere, the Imperium had broken apart, you had the Old God cults, so a lot of blood magic. There was a lot of chaos, you had the cults of Andraste...and the Inquisition sort of arose as a group of people who said "Enough is enough, somebody has to do something about this magic that is tearing apart the world." And when the Chantry came to be they went to the Inquisition and said "Hey, we're of the same mind on this, why don't we pull together" and that's when the Inquisition turned into the Seekers and the Templar Order. They kind of merged. It'd be interesting to see if the Inquisition ever rose up again."

[Colonelkillabee]

Of course they deny it, don't be silly.

This sounds more like people making assumptions and sweeping statements to demonize those who would dare to say that the humans while not right, had cause to do what they did initially. I'm not in the business of assuming someone is just lying because they disagree with me, sorry.

[Master Warder Z_]

Or they spew headcanon things like Warder does that will never happen.

That's sounding more like others then myself.

Because to be honest I never call my head cannon anything but.

[raging_monkey]

Cue "magic is the blame and MT fights" in 3... 2.. 1

[Lulupab]

That's sounding more like others then myself.

Because to be honest I never call my head cannon anything but.

 

I remember your idea of vassal elven kingdom. Its head canon.

 

This sounds more like people making assumptions and sweeping statements to demonize those who would dare to say that the humans while not right, had cause to do what they did initially. I'm not in the business of assuming someone is just lying because they disagree with me, sorry.

 

Doesn't have to do anything with what humans did initially but what they are doing now. People find excuses to make it seem like necessary.

[Lulupab]

Wait, people are disputing that there were Andrastian cults prior to the Chantry's organization? Those and the old god cults are what led to the original Inquisition.

David Gaider interview:

 

Thanks for the link, I actually searched but couldn't find it. So there was cultS of Adnraste who had different opinion of how to worship the maker.

[Steelcan]

the vassal elven kingdom was an idea, not a theory on an actual existing state

[Colonelkillabee]

 

Doesn't have to do anything with what humans did initially but what they are doing now. People find excuses to make it seem like necessary.

Well that's not happening now in this discussion, not from what I've seen. And if it is, then I am wrong, and I would appreciate someone pointing out who so I can tell them how wrong they are, lol. Otherwise, you really need to stop carrying animosity from past discussions to new. That's partly why these discussions are so screwed in the first place, though this one's not going too badly, now that people are finally dropping that "both are equally wrong" stuff for Red Crossing specifically.