1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

[quotename="Lulupab" post="18277415" timestamp="1420419819"]

I remember your idea of vassal elven kingdom. Its head canon.
[/quote]

No it isn't its a idea, not lore, I never claimed it was.

Thus not head canon. It's not theory on prior events in universe.

[Master Warder Z_]

the vassal elven kingdom was an idea, not a theory on an actual existing state

Thank You!

[EmissaryofLies]

 

 

Doesn't have to do anything with what humans did initially but what they are doing now. People find excuses to make it seem like necessary.

 

I get more the idea that certain parties simply see the elves at fault for their current condition. A mindset that if they had have been nicer to the pushy humans, they wouldn't be an Andrastian's kitchen b*tch. It's simply an acceptance of the elves' fate.

 

It doesn't seem to be too far from the "get a job, grouch!" philosophy that some of the "haves" champion in modernity.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Insanity.

The elves clearly aren't going to get any rights without some type of change. Take Garahel. He was an elf who ended the blight and saved Thedas yet elves never gained anything special for it. Also, even if the Warden is an elf, elves still get nothing. Even if the Dalish elf gives the Dalish land or a City Elf Warden becomes bann, there are still conflicts even if the Warden who saved Ferelden is still alive. If a City Elf Warden becomes bann and is still hated by racists despite saving all of Ferelden, clearly elves aren't getting anywhere by themselves.

[Lulupab]

Well that's not happening now in this discussion, not from what I've seen. And if it is, then I am wrong, and I would appreciate someone pointing out who so I can tell them how wrong they are, lol. Otherwise, you really need to stop carrying animosity from past discussions to new. That's partly why these discussions are so screwed in the first place, though this one's not going too badly, now that people are finally dropping that "both are equally wrong" stuff for Red Crossing specifically.

 

If I give you names then the named person will start a debate with me and I don't want it. You can see my Vivienne hate there was a particular person who said elves should remain in their current condition because they having more rights will endanger the lives of humans in Orlais and will make it harder for humans to live. I mean Leliana allows elves to join the chantry and she is definitely kinder towards them. If Brilala is in power either peacefully though Celene or forced through Gaspard then elves can become nobility and alienags might be gone soon. So according to him these are huge problems for Orlais therefore Elves should remain their current condition.

 

Actually bugger it all, his name was Akkos.

[Steelcan]

The elves clearly aren't going to get any rights without some type of change. Take Garahel. He was an elf who ended the blight and saved Thedas yet elves never gained anything special for it. Also, even if the Warden is an elf, elves still get nothing. Even if the Dalish elf gives the Dalish land or a City Elf Warden becomes bann, there are still conflicts even if the Warden who saved Ferelden is still alive. If a City Elf Warden becomes bann and is still hated by racists despite saving all of Ferelden, clearly elves aren't getting anywhere by themselves.

throwing Orlais into chaos further is only going to end in purged alienages

[Vit246]

Being shown God, having homes, jobs and salvation handed to them is what happened.

Also the Chantry doesn't need to justify ****

The elves caused it.

Holy crap. I just have to respond to this:

 

.....you sound like a historical period Euro-American colonist/imperialist trying to justify what happened to the Native Americans because they got "compensated" with Christianity and "civilization".

 

Now I know better never to waste my time trying to argue with you.

[Lulupab]

throwing Orlais into chaos further is only going to end in purged alienages

 

Celene and Briala reconciled and Gaspard executed is best ending in matters of stability in Orlais. Simply there is no one and no reason to oppose it.

[LobselVith8]

Well that's not happening now in this discussion, not from what I've seen. And if it is, then I am wrong, and I would appreciate someone pointing out who so I can tell them how wrong they are, lol. Otherwise, you really need to stop carrying animosity from past discussions to new. That's partly why these discussions are so screwed in the first place, though this one's not going too badly, now that people are finally dropping that "both are equally wrong" stuff for Red Crossing specifically.

 

People said both were wrong. No one tried to quantify who was more wrong than the other.

[Colonelkillabee]

If I give you names then the named person will start a debate with me and I don't want it. You can see my Vivienne hate there was a particular person who said elves should remain in their current condition because they having more rights will endanger the lives of humans in Orlais and will make it harder for humans to live. I mean Leliana allows elves to join the chantry and she is definitely kinder towards them. If Brilala is in power either peacefully though Celene or forced through Gaspard then elves can become nobility and alienags might be gone soon. So according to him these are huge problems for Orlais therefore Elves should remain their current condition.

 

Actually bugger it all, his name was Akkos.

Like I said, that isn't this discussion. I remember that discussion, things got really heated, and in that heat, I myself basically said "**** 'em", lol, but I was talking about how the elves got there in general, not saying that the current city elves were to blame for their own fate. No one can say that.

 

I don't agree with Akkos, but like I said, that isn't this discussion, and people from both sides need to stop acting like everyone on opposite ends of the debate are exactly the same.

[thesuperdarkone2]

throwing Orlais into chaos further is only going to end in purged alienages

Which is why I reconciled Celene and Briala. Briala ensures that elves get more rights and Celene maintains peace and culture. Win win for me.

[Colonelkillabee]

People said both were wrong. No one tried to quantify who was more wrong than the other.

I've seen people say "equally" several times, which is the main point I disagreed with, and a point that some tried to argue against for a little while.

[Lulupab]

Yeah, also warder thinks the Chantry doesn't even need to justify elves rotting in diseases, treated like vermin and becoming target dummies. Even after 700 years of said condition, "elves caused it" according to him. Which elves? Some government that used to rule the Dales? What about civilians and people from generations later. As I said...

 

Petrice.

 

Its a fantasy and this not a judgement, but you have "one ring to rule them all" theories and there is nothing in the world that I disagree more with.

[Master Warder Z_]

clearly elves aren't getting anywhere by themselves.

Hence my little idea.

Plus it beats having Orlais ripping itself to shreds trying to force change on such a scale.

A parcel of land and a lordship would be easier.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Holy crap. I just have to respond to this:

 

.....you sound like a historical period Euro-American colonist/imperialist trying to justify what happened to the Native Americans because they got "compensated" with Christianity and "civilization".

 

Now I know better never to waste my time trying to argue with you.

Warder is pretty much the extremist of this forum. He pretty much always supports the evil options in games. He also supports the Legion in New Vegas, a group of fanatical, misogynistic, rapist slavers who follow a hypocrite with a god complex. That should tell you all about him. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Ad Hominems are for novice debaters. Keep that in mind.

[LobselVith8]

Celene and Briala reconciled and Gaspard executed is best ending in matters of stability in Orlais. Simply there is no one and no reason to oppose it.

 

I'm admittedly partial to putting Briala in power with my Lavellan mage. My character can't forgive Celene for all the elves who were killed in Halamshiral, and she makes some radical changes to give elves rights; after the racist comments Gaspard makes to Briala, my character wasn't too keen on supporting him, either. I do wish Briala wasn't whitewashed, though; she's described as being darker in TME.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, also warder thinks the Chantry doesn't even need to justify elves

Because both parties involvement are several centuries past, so does the modern chantry need to justify a war the elves started seven centuries ago in my eye?

No.

It's history, just history.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Celene and Briala reconciled and Gaspard executed is best ending in matters of stability in Orlais. Simply there is no one and no reason to oppose it.

This. I'd say if you care about elves, this is the best ending.

[raging_monkey]

Warder is pretty much the extremist of this forum. He pretty much always supports the evil options in games. He also supports the Legion in New Vegas, a group of fanatical, misogynistic, rapist slavers who follow a hypocrite with a god complex. That should tell you all about him.

to be fair just cause x person RPs Y doesnt mean they genuinly believe so. I occasionally RP "monsters" but im actually a idealist with a decent ethics board

[Steelcan]

Gaspard as one true emperor, let Celene sit with the Maker, and Briala hang

[Master Warder Z_]

Ad Hominems are for novice debaters. Keep that in mind.

o.o you might try smaller words.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I'm admittedly partial to putting Briala in power with my Lavellan mage. My character can't forgive Celene for all the elves who were killed in Halamshiral, and she makes some radical changes to give elves rights; after the racist comments Gaspard makes to Briala, my character wasn't too keen on supporting him, either. I do wish Briala wasn't whitewashed, though; she's described as being darker in TME.

At least with the Celene and Briala reconciled elves get more rights with no indication of a revolt. If Briala rules, the ending all but says that it's only a matter of time until a revolt occurs that tries to overthrow her plus how long until Gaspard has enough and tries to overthrow Briala.

[EmissaryofLies]

I'm admittedly partial to putting Briala in power with my Lavellan mage. My character can't forgive Celene for all the elves who were killed in Halamshiral, and she makes some radical changes to give elves rights; after the racist comments Gaspard makes to Briala, my character wasn't too keen on supporting him, either. I do wish Briala wasn't whitewashed, though; she's described as being darker in TME.

 

The whole "rabbit" bit wasn't charming at all. I'll give him credit for not giving a f*ck that my Dalish Inquisitor was right there. Alas, he had to go.

[Colonelkillabee]

Being shown God, having homes, jobs and salvation handed to them is what happened.

Also the Chantry doesn't need to justify ****

The elves caused it.

 

 

While I definitely don't agree with the beginning of Warder's statement, the "Chantry don't need to justify ****" line followed by "the elves caused it" is obviously in reference to the initial start of the city elf situation, not its current existence. People should be able to see that from the context, as well as how the conversation has flowed since then.
 

This is the post he was responding to:

 

 

Your Petrice side is showing. Because the chantry tried to justify what happened to elves, not just red crossing.

 

Past tense.