1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

Which is comparable to, say, Fereldans thinking Calenhad was just that awesome rather than deriving his power from reaver abilities.

Only Dalish are allowed to muck up history, apparently?

Calenhad was a reaver and awesome XD The reavers are 

 

 

Because one is not damming a whole race for a crime they never did.

I doubt elves just came to the Tevinter and said: "Oh almighty shemlens, pleace enslave us we submit to you. Also take all our cultural heritage, for free!" 

Plus even if the Tevinter didn't conquered the original Arlathan humans treated (and still do) elves terribly anyway. A reason good enough to be bitter and hateful. The elves are canonically the most oppressed race in Thedas. So they have every right to be bitter and angry

[Reznore57]

I'm not sure I would say they got it wrong , well I mean sure for people who claim to be "Keepers of the old ways" , they are clearly mistaken about what those "old ways " were.

But they allowed their stories to move on and make sense for their current situation .

Yes it's some kind of nostalgic fairy tale compared to the truth but the more you learn about the "true elves" the more you see the rot beneath all the glory.

 

I think it's good they don't worship their ancient gods and who they really were , they were cruel gods.

Andruil was a goddess of sacrifice and the Hunt was not really the one the hunters go on to feed their clans.

If the current Dalish followed the true old ways , most clans would be far more violent , and they would probably all be dead by now.

Most of the gods temple in the Dales followed that dark legacy .Human sacrifice , I assume blood magic , elven high priest being cut into pieces , and the temple being cursed as a result etc...

 

IMHO the Dalish are a bit like Tevinter , both had a great magical empire at one point (I would say the elves were greater and have fallen even lower ) but magic has always been a tool used for the best and the worst.

The elves are like everyone else , they were lured by power struggles , class problems , magic getting out of hand etc (I mean Solas knows a lot about magic , he doesn't fear the fade , and it's great .But on the other hand

Spoiler

  he's a god who understand magic more than most man , still he made a mistake and his magical orb caused a big Boom and tore the veil.That's the truth about magic , even "Gods" don't control the thing fully and it backfires in their faces

[Roamingmachine]

If they got the most basic things wrong there wouldn't be Arlathan, there wouldn't be a pantheon, there wouldn't be Fen'Harel, there wouldn't be Uthenara etc. They got some details wrong - and that is just inevitable. They got it right that the elven kingdom fell - they just got wrong how it fell. Which is understandable and not a sin - it's been thousands of years
They got their full elven pantheon right in terms of a short summary - and it's an achivement even by RL standards. Our slav' pantheon? We remember only parts of it and we weren't invaded and stopped worshiping the old gods about 1000 years ago. The elves were ruined, enslaved, beaten into even more submission, their culture got evaporised by invaders (and don't tell me that people themselves destroyed it, it's not how such things work) and then they had to become nomadic to keep at least something. They got their names right, they got some of their basic functions right and they did get it right that vallaslins were used to show respect for specific gods... but as slave marks. And that is not even unrealistic if you know how many RL religions work/ed. Details, again
Plus while it was an elven rebellion which made the country crumble it were humans who came and enslaved the weakened and chaotic rest. Saying that it was elven's fault and their fault only like saying that the roman empire destroyed itself rather than the german tribes. Or rus' folk ruined themselves and the mongolians didn't invade them. It was but one of the reasons of a fall. And when a country, region, community become weak there will always be other sides who'd like to use that to their advantage. Politics and stuff
So. no. The dalish did fine considering the hostile enviroment and all the difficulties
As for the Red Crossing? D'uh. Did anyone really expect a different truth? Just look at RL crusades and wars between countries

And there is the truth of the matter, well written for anyone who wonders. Oh, i've no doubt the spiteful will continue to spout their venom, but they do not matter. Those who silently read will benefit from your well argued post immensly. Well done

[Chari]

And there is the truth of the matter, well written for anyone who wonders. Oh, i've no doubt the spiteful will continue to spout their venom, but they do not matter. Those who silently read will benefit from your well argued post immensly. Well done

Thank you  

I apologize to everyone if I sounds spiteful but when people simplify situations like this, cultures, countries, traditions, races and just all the concepts out of personal biases I blow up. There is so much to analyze, peacefully, respectfully and by using scientific approaches, history and theory. But I guess people just love oversimplifying everything. Templars are evil abusers, mages are crazy walking bombs, the dalish are stupid pricks, the tevinterians are evil blood mages, qunari are mindless drones and other crap folk say... And when even the creators themselves start to treat their creations this way it just hurts. Physically. People - even fictional - are more complicated than that, they deserve better

I'm done for today. Too much arguing for my taste

[Precursor Meta]

The Dalish are kinda like the people that worship DA:O.

I haven't play other DA games besides Inquisition. But from your statement, I can see where you're coming from. It's like that with alot of game franchises. People look at where the games are now and see just the bad while exalting past games but ignoring its shortcomings.

[Roamingmachine]

Thank you  
I apologize to everyone if I sounds spiteful but when people simplify situations like this, cultures, countries, traditions, races and just all the concepts out of personal biases I blow up. There is so much to analyze, peacefully, respectfully and by using scientific approaches, history and theory. But I guess people just love oversimplifying everything. Templars are evil abusers, mages are crazy walking bombs, the dalish are stupid pricks, the tevinterians are evil blood mages, qunari are mindless drones and other crap folk say... And when even the creators themselves start to treat their creations this way it just hurts. Physically. People - even fictional - are more complicated than that, they deserve better
I'm done for today. Too much arguing for my taste

BSN is....an interesting place. Ive been fighting the 'elven war' here for some time and i've learned that people love to hate. Doesnt matter what it is, just so long as they can pour their hate on something in lieu of spreading hate against real world people and groups (because that brings down the banhammer). Im not talking about the people who simply dislike people/groups in the game world but people who spread ignorant and hateful poison time and time again regardless of the topic. There are a few who actually debate, such as yourself, on either side of the arguments but often get drowned out by the screeching masses. Anyway, its nice to find another student of history

[phaonica]

The Dalish's loss, fabrication, and recovery of their history is what makes them so interesting, I think.

 

Thank you

I apologize to everyone if I sounds spiteful but when people simplify situations like this, cultures, countries, traditions, races and just all the concepts out of personal biases I blow up. There is so much to analyze, peacefully, respectfully and by using scientific approaches, history and theory. But I guess people just love oversimplifying everything. Templars are evil abusers, mages are crazy walking bombs, the dalish are stupid pricks, the tevinterians are evil blood mages, qunari are mindless drones and other crap folk say... And when even the creators themselves start to treat their creations this way it just hurts. Physically. People - even fictional - are more complicated than that, they deserve better

I'm done for today. Too much arguing for my taste

 

That's true. It's a shame that all we can seem to do is argue about how much we hate them and their ignorant attitudes instead of appreciating the complexity of the story.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because one is not damming a whole race for a crime they never did.

It's a fault.

[TheJediSaint]

Humanity is Dragon Age's dart board.

[Master Warder Z_]

Humanity is Dragon Age's dart board.

Pretty much.

[Dean_the_Young]

Plus even if the Tevinter didn't conquered the original Arlathan humans treated (and still do) elves terribly anyway. A reason good enough to be bitter and hateful.

 

Except... not, because collective guilt doesn't get any more sensible when you ignore political/identity distinctions and throw in a few hundred years.

 

There is no 'humanity' that can be collectively blamed or held responsible as a unit. There are humans, and there are other humans, and sometimes some humans do or did things to some elves that other humans had no hand in whatsoever.

 

The only groups that should be blamed for something are the ones that did it. The human race did not conquer Arlathan- Tevinter did (maybe). 'Humanity' didn't destroy the Dales- Orlais did, and far from without justification.

 

Collectivizing humans as a blame-group would only make sense if (1) humans were immortal and still around, (2) a hive mind of collective-identity unbroken through the ages, or (3) a polity or institution that could claim credit and responsibility for the acts.

 

None of those are true. There is no reason good enough to be bitter and hateful against humans who had nothing to do with the sufferings of thep ast... especially since none of those alive today to be bitter or hateful were actual participants or victims of those past events.
 

[Gervaise]

Would point out that back in DAO in the Dalish origin we found an elven ruin that seemed to suggest that elves and humans had co-existed.     The Dalish say that when Arlathan was at its height, humans were primitive and viewed and treated much as elves are by humans in the present - in other words at the bottom of the pecking order, probably as slaves.    So it is not too great a stretch to think that when the civil war between the elves occurred, one side (possibly led by Solas/Fen Harel) may have been supported and helped by their human slaves.     Then this racial memory got muddled as the years went by and in view of the fact that they were suffering at the hands of powerful humans, they assumed that they were solely responsible for the situation.

 

In Masked Empire there is evidence to show that the nobility were attacked by their servants/slaves.    Seems like it could have been a sort of Andraste in reverse.   So elven crusader leader, Fen Harel, unites his forces and is joined by the human slaves, who then gain their freedom as a result.  

 

In fact their legend about the gods isn't so far from the truth - it would seem that whatever became of them, Solas/Fen Harel was behind it.     Likewise, their tattoos signifying devotion to a particular god, or to put it another way, service.    The original elves probably had fanatical devotion and served their god without question, and whether they were technically slaves or not, Solas' would view it as such.       If you look at the Sentinals, they have the vallaslin and have served slavishly at the shrine for thousands of years, even though they know their god is dead, but once their purpose in remaining there is taken away, they seem free to do as they see fit.  

 

So the Dalish have a distorted memory of their culture but within it are some fragments of the truth.   

[Colonelkillabee]

Holy ****, another one? Damn, people. You guys need a new topic. Dalish turned out to be just like every other ******* on Thedas. Shocker.

 

What else is there to say?

[ctd757]

If only there was a way to gain the old lore

[Medhia_Nox]

The Dalish were irrelevant before we knew they got everything wrong...

 

How could they not have been wrong?  Arlathan wasn't an hunter gatherer society of nomads who ride funky carts driven by albino reindeer.

[Willowhugger]

Because one is not damming a whole race for a crime they never did.

I admit, you'd think Tevinter and Orlais being horrible for what they did would be enough without having to have sunk Elflantis.

And as ignorant and mean as Sera is, she has a point.

The elves look to the past for someone to blame rather than building something.

Your Dalish can be that someone.

[tanuki]

They got the most basic thing wrong, the destruction of Arlthan. Blaming people who never did it. Then we have Red Crossing where it had been proven both sides started it and were just as bad as eachother. That's not even getting into the gods or their tats. This is stuff they basically blame humans for that turned out to be 100% wrong.

Tevinter probably had it's hand in twisting history as well. Dorian was pretty upset about them not being conquerors of Arlathan and said it can even thoroughly crush their morale and beliefs. It's not that implausible for Tevinter to play along and be like "Yeah cool indeed that was us who destroyed mighty elven empire". They could even claim they did it first and then dalish elves just picked their version of the story because it gave them cause to hate humans.

[thepimpto]

Shartan starts slave rebellion. Elves granted the Dales as a Boon. Elves practice the old ways by tattooing their faces with slave markings. Even the Dragon Age version of Jews can't catch a break.

[Medhia_Nox]

@thepimpto:  They are SO not a Jewish analogue... the Jewish community has the opposite stereotype of being antiquated.  History has shown them to be progressive and successful in the environments they settle in.  This fact is often why they are maligned. 

 

The Dalish are failures across the board.

 

And they are absolutely not the indigenous tribal societies of the Americas either.  The very fact that the tribal peoples were not xenophobic misanthropes was part of their problem in allowing the colonization of their shores by a hostile and corrupt force. 

[Addai]

Well, the fact is that humans in Thedas are more bigoted than medieval Europeans. Elves are master craftsmen, but generally they're not allowed to trade in the better markets. There's not a chance they'd be allowed to practice banking. So you're right, the analogy only goes so far, even if the Jewish parallels are there and deliberately if you look at the names and the Fiddler on the Roof vibe of the city elf origin.

[Colonelkillabee]

And they are absolutely not the indigenous tribal societies of the Americas either.  The very fact that the tribal peoples were not xenophobic misanthropes was part of their problem in allowing the colonization of their shores by a hostile and corrupt force. 

When you put it that way, maybe the Dalish should put an arrow in any shems they come across, lol. What happened to the native americans was unbelievably fucked and cruel.

 

But no, the Dalish aren't like them. Native Americans weren't the aggressors originally.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And they are absolutely not the indigenous tribal societies of the Americas either.  The very fact that the tribal peoples were not xenophobic misanthropes was part of their problem in allowing the colonization of their shores by a hostile and corrupt force. 

It's not like the native americans had much of a choice anyway..

[ShadowLordXII]

The Dalish are kinda like the people that worship DA:O. 

 

"Facepalm"

 

Ignoring that obvious bait.

 

Keep in mind that the Dalish are trying to reclaim their culture after generations and centuries of cultural destruction, slavery and oppression. I wouldn't be surprised that they're missing a few vital pieces and thus they have an incomplete picture of what Arlathan was like.

[Willowhugger]

Tevinter probably had it's hand in twisting history as well. Dorian was pretty upset about them not being conquerors of Arlathan and said it can even thoroughly crush their morale and beliefs. It's not that implausible for Tevinter to play along and be like "Yeah cool indeed that was us who destroyed mighty elven empire". They could even claim they did it first and then dalish elves just picked their version of the story because it gave them cause to hate humans.

Say what?

Man, what did I miss by not taking Dorian?

[TK514]

Say what?

Man, what did I miss by not taking Dorian?

 

He has some wry commentary about the Tevinter ego taking a hit due to some of the revelations.  It's not all that significant.