1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

I think more people care about the Dalish invasion of Orlais than Red Crossing. That and the ten year long war with them that was not needed and the slaying of diplomats. 

[Addai]

I'm sure most get the tragedy, and that the hostilities built up from both sides realistically made the human reaction to a murdered woman predictable, and the elven reaction to their people murdered predictable.

 

But, it still doesn't change what was brought up yesterday, which you yourself compared to first and third degree murder, and manslaughter, which whether you realize it or not was ironic, as that basically was an admission of guilt, as those are all convictions.

 

People get the tragedy, but I certainly don't blame people for not wanting to accept equal blame for a situation that could have been avoided.

I never said that the elves weren't guilty of anything. Don't know where you get that.

[Colonelkillabee]

I think more people care about the Dalish invasion of Orlais than Red Crossing. That and the ten year long war with them that was not needed and the slaying of diplomats. 

As an overtone, yes. The Red-Crossing incident is looked to as the thing that started the war, but honestly no. It wasn't. The decision to invade after the incident was what started the war. A decision that was made after elves killed, intentionally or not, then got a predictable, expected, and in my opinion, reasonable response considering they were trespassing. The humans declared war, yes... After their city was sacked. What the hell do you expect would happen.

[Colonelkillabee]

I never said that the elves weren't guilty of anything. Don't know where you get that.

I'm not saying you said they weren't at all guilty. I remember you bringing up Origins several times, so I know. I'm talking about the comments of "both guilty because of the tensions prior" and "war was going to happen anyway". These two ideas held not just by you but other (not all) elven defenders is equally as faulty as our chuckleheads trying to defend chantry oppression today, or deny the war crimes the humans likely committed. If it wasn't for those comments, you'd pretty much be in the right. Actually, you pretty much are, as nothing can ever excuse what's currently going on. The initial response to their defeat however, the thing that lead to their fate, that's a different story and something your fellow elven fans were denying.

 

I just want people to admit those two comments are a poor excuse. Should be easy when I am not at all defending the current and as you put it, incredibly thorough oppression this all lead to. Some of us came to a pretty neutral ground yesterday, so perhaps today we can make some headway. Time to nip this in the bud.

[LOLandStuff]

So, why is it the elves didn't stop at Red Crossing again?

[Colonelkillabee]

So, why is it the elves didn't stop at Red Crossing again?

Because the humans declared war and they were already fighting by then, which is expected given what happened. They could have maybe avoided this from happening if they didn't, but hindsight. I mean, not many nations wouldn't declare war after a town was attacked. The decision to attack Red Crossing was the point of no return.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, even if they did know what would happen, the humans won, so there'd be no reason not to declare war. Especially when there's no guarantee the elves wouldn't have just pushed on anyway.

[Wompoo]

Every single thing that has occurred is Solas's fault (or at least his actions were the catalyst of it)... you have humans feeding of the bones of an ancient civilisation far far greater then it, like common parasites. Dalish who are like so many indigenous people around the world... stripped of their lands , culture and history, trying to rebuild with the little they have or remember. Also who are the brothers fighting in the fade? (and Cole's comment their father never taught them that... then Solas saying he, the father is long gone now).

 

Lastly yes DA:O had issue, but it is still the highest rated game in the series and biggest seller (it was the problems that needed fixing, it didn't need a rebirth... born of ego). It had a soul (broken at times but a soul) compared to its, at times, soulless lesser siblings.

[Colonelkillabee]

The gods were already at war, and solas ended that war. I'm not sure I can say it was all Solas' fault. The world could have been worse off now if he didn't do what he did.

[Br3admax]

Because the humans declared war and they were already fighting by then, which is expected given what happened. 

That's not what happened. Orlais didn't declared war on the Dales until they invaded and sacked Val Royeaux. And seriously, what's with the "the humans declared war?" Does Orlais represent humanity now?

[Colonelkillabee]

That's not what happened. Orlais didn't declared war on the Dales until they invaded and sacked Val Royeaux. And seriously, what's with the "the humans declared war?" Does Orlais represent humanity now?

People do the same with the Dalish.

 

Anyway, I wasn't actually aware Val Royeaux was sacked, I thought they only got close to the capital?

[In Exile]

Like right now people are ignoring the fact that steelcan thinks the angelic Orlais spared all elves. Elves are openly allowed to be raped and killed after 700 years. What do you think happened when humans were most angry with elves? Others need to call your bull on this.

Colonelkillabee this is one of those moments that you wanted to see, no?

Pretty sure there's a codex entry on how it was the chantry that reigned in Orlais once the Dales were sacked, with the alienages being their solution. I'm as surprised by people who don't think Orlais butchered and raped its way through the Dales as I am by people who think the Dales didn't rape and butcher their way through Orlais when they sacked Montsimmard and were marching on Val Royeaux.

[In Exile]

People do the same with the Dalish.

Anyway, I wasn't actually aware Val Royeaux was sacked, I thought they only got close to the capital?

The difference is that Dalish clans all purport to share an identity. And the Dalish moniker is not a racial one. Humans don't purport to hold one identity. They each have their own political label.

[Br3admax]

People do the same with the Dalish.

 

Anyway, I wasn't actually aware Val Royeaux was sacked, I thought they only got close to the capital?

Much like Orlais, the Dales was not a species. It was a country. One country. Fact is, most of the free elves in Thedas lived there. Humanity was/is not so concentrated. It's nowhere near the same. 

 

And yes, they actually sacked Val Royeaux. 

[Colonelkillabee]

The difference is that Dalish clans all purport to share an identity. And the Dalish moniker is not a racial one. Humans don't purport to hold one identity. They each have their own political label.

Much like Orlais, the Dales was not a species. It was a country. One country. Fact is, most of the free elves in Thedas lived there. Humanity was/is not so concentrated. It's nowhere near the same. 

 

And yes, they actually sacked Val Royeaux. 

 

It's really semantics at this point. We're talking about city elves and the dalish clans when they were one in the dales, and so people call them in this discussion the dales even though the city elves were no longer dalish, and now people often refer to them as "the elves".

 

You know what I'm talking about, the Orlesians. Lets not get pointlessly anal about it, please.

 

Anyway, Breadmax, I looked it up and yea, Val Royeaux sacked, and war was declared after. Not sure where I heard it was different. Probably this thread.

[Br3admax]

It's really semantics at this point. We're talking about city elves and the dalish clans when they were one in the dales, and so people call them in this discussion the dales even though the city elves were no longer dalish, and now people often refer to them as "the elves".

Because back then they were one and the same. It's not semantics, it is fact. The nobility of the Dales, i.e the ancestors of the Dalish, are at fault, and so many people blame them. It's natural. The CE, which is basically everyone else, are the people left behind. The poor and downtrodden that couldn't just pick up and leave. They have sympathy and are not blamed. Pretty simple, really. When people say, "The elves did it," they're talking about the people who lead them, just like when people say, "Orlais did it," they're talking about the people who led Orlais. Not Pig Farmer #12 

 

 

You know what I'm talking about, the Orlesians. Lets not get pointlessly anal about it, please.

I get that, but it has a lot less to do with you, and a lot more to do with fans of the Dalish who think humanity always wants to use the elves as their punching bags and constantly gang up on them. Fact is, the nobility caused the current situation with the City Elves when they forced them to fight a war they didn't want, all because of a shoddy cover up.  

[Colonelkillabee]

Because back then they were one and the same. It's not semantics, it is fact. The nobility of the Dales, i.e the ancestors of the Dalish, are at fault, and so many people blame them. It's natural. The CE, which is basically everyone else, are the people left behind. The poor and downtrodden that couldn't just pick up and leave. They have sympathy and are not blamed. Pretty simple, really.  

I get that, but it has a lot less to do with you, and a lot more to do with fans of the Dalish who think humanity always wants to use the elves as their punching bags and constantly gang up on them. Fact is, the nobility caused the current situation with the City Elves when they forced them to fight a war they didn't want, all because of a shoddy cover up.  

It is semantics, because we're talking about the elves in the past and present in this whole discussion.

 

I'm not a Dalish fan, at least not like they are, so it's pointless to take me off point for something so small. Please don't make me have this discussion. It's silly.

 

Actually, I'm just going to ignore it from here on, so say what you must after this. People know who I'm referring to, and when a Dalish fan actually refers to all of the humans doing this or that, I'll respond to it.

[Addai]

I'm not saying you said they weren't at all guilty. I remember you bringing up Origins several times, so I know. I'm talking about the comments of "both guilty because of the tensions prior" and "war was going to happen anyway". These two ideas held not just by you but other (not all) elven defenders is equally as faulty as our chuckleheads trying to defend chantry oppression today, or deny the war crimes the humans likely committed. If it wasn't for those comments, you'd pretty much be in the right. Actually, you pretty much are, as nothing can ever excuse what's currently going on. The initial response to their defeat however, the thing that lead to their fate, that's a different story and something your fellow elven fans were denying.
 
I just want people to admit those two comments are a poor excuse. Should be easy when I am not at all defending the current and as you put it, incredibly thorough oppression this all lead to. Some of us came to a pretty neutral ground yesterday, so perhaps today we can make some headway. Time to nip this in the bud.

It's not an excuse, it's just a fact. War was inevitable. "Elves could have been more diplomatic"- if Andrastians didn't have an ideology that required them to convert the world and subdue all mages. Such ifs are useless because as things stood, there was no way that the Dales was going to be let alone, not when Orlais wanted that land (which is also a codex entry, since people take the Red Crossing as gospel) and the elves had an aggressive xenophobia.

Because back then they were one and the same. It's not semantics, it is fact. The nobility of the Dales, i.e the ancestors of the Dalish, are at fault, and so many people blame them. It's natural. The CE, which is basically everyone else, are the people left behind. The poor and downtrodden that couldn't just pick up and leave. They have sympathy and are not blamed. Pretty simple, really. When people say, "The elves did it," they're talking about the people who lead them, just like when people say, "Orlais did it," they're talking about the people who led Orlais. Not Pig Farmer #12

I don't know how you assert this so confidently after we found out that the Dalish are the ones who were marked as slaves. What if it's the other way around?

[Colonelkillabee]

It's not an excuse, it's just a fact. War was inevitable.

That is not a fact, that is an assumption. Even if you think your assumption is very likely, it is still an assumption. One used as an excuse, hence this discussion. If you can't admit that, then there's nothing left to discuss and people need to stop complaining about human fans being disagreeable.

 

 

[Colonelkillabee]

I seriously wonder how anyone can claim this war was inevitable when elves sacked Red-Crossing. And now that I'm aware that they even sacked the capital, and only then was the exalted march called, claiming this war was inevitable is even more absurd.

[Addai]

That is not a fact, that is an assumption. Even if you think your assumption is very likely, it is still an assumption. One used as an excuse, hence this discussion. If you can't admit that, then there's nothing left to discuss and people need to stop complaining about human fans being disagreeable.

Well sorry, I think if you can't admit that then you're either not reading the codex or you've otherwise got a fantasyland picture of what the conditions were like in a world where Orlais was expansionist and grabbing up land from Nevarra to offset Tevinter power, and where the elves would rather risk the Blight spreading than fight alongside human armies.

It's not about excusing elves, as you keep asserting. It's about reading the writing on the wall that's as plain as was the build-up to the mage-templar war.

[Colonelkillabee]

Well sorry, I think if you can't admit that then you're either not reading the codex or you've otherwise got a fantasyland picture of what the conditions were like in a world where Orlais was expansionist and grabbing up land from Nevarra to offset Tevinter power, and where the elves would rather risk the Blight spreading than fight alongside human armies.

Well sorry but I think that claiming your opinion is fact is bullshit and you're not much different than the guys denying human warcrimes or justifying chantry oppression.

 

Both are intellectually dishonest positions. This war was not inevitable. This war was pushed by the elves.

 

 

Maybe. Though if you ask me, saying "Ah **** it, war was gonna happen anyway!" To try and excuse the murder of an entire town and a war is the very definition of someone with loose screws. Or, George Bush.
 

It's not about excusing elves, as you keep asserting. It's about reading the writing on the wall that's as plain as was the build-up to the mage-templar war.

Which part of the wall calls retaliation for deaths you caused an unavoidable war?

 

The elves came in to human territory and killed a human. Then when they got killed, they retaliated for something that was their fault, then kept advancing into the territory on their own. If they kept their asses out of red crossing, this wouldn't have happened. Maybe some other instance would have caused a war, but this one was on the elves.

[Addai]

I really don't think anyone can look at the history of Orlais- leaving out the parts that actually say that there was increasing border hostility between Orlais and the Dales- and say "oh those poor Orlesians, they would never grab up a neighbor's land, that's so unlike them!" BS. And likewise the Dales had an increasingly hostile stance towards Orlais. This was a conflict waiting to happen. If you can't see that or won't admit it, there's not much more to say.

[Colonelkillabee]

I really don't think anyone can look at the history of Orlais- leaving out the parts that actually say that there was increasing border hostility between Orlais and the Dales- and say "oh those poor Orlesians, they would never grab up a neighbor's land, that's so unlike them!" BS. And likewise the Dales had an increasingly hostile stance towards Orlais. This was a conflict waiting to happen. If you can't see that or won't admit it, there's not much more to say.

You can't use the history of Orlais and the elves to ignore the actual facts of what happened. I'm not saying the Orlesians are innocent, or that a war wouldn't have broken out "eventually", I'm saying that you can't use this assumption, or "fact" if you wish, to excuse what the elves did. And that is exactly what you are doing when you say that war was inevitable. Just as Anders' actions were not excusable, neither were the elves. And really, using Orlesian history as an excuse for what they did is an ad hominem, or close to it.

 

There isn't much more to say than there's enough claims of stubbornness to go around, and it's definitely not just from the human side. Elven fans claimed that they stand where they do because the chuckleheads on our side tried justifying modern elven oppression. Well we narrowed those down to one, maybe two then moved on.

 

Now someone needs to have the integrity to admit that what the elves did was not excusable, whether a future war was inevitable or not. This situation is NOT like Kirkwall. The elves walked into human territory. Kirkwall's mages didn't have much choice in being in Kirkwall. The elves had a choice, the mages did not.