1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

That's not what happened. Orlais didn't declared war on the Dales until they invaded and sacked Val Royeaux. And seriously, what's with the "the humans declared war?" Does Orlais represent humanity now?

You're mixing up a few facts. An Exalted March wasn't called until then, but that doesn't mean Orlais wasn't fighting. It just wasn't a holy war until then. I gather they hoped other nations would rush to their aid if the Chantry called. Kind of telling that no one did.
 
Note that Drakon's expansionism and holy crusading was always checked by the Dales, according to World of Thedas, and that he had grabbed up Anderfels and most of the Free Marches. His son lost these gains but this is the background against which the elves became increasingly isolated and suspicious of Orlais. Their unwillingness to aid Orlais against the Blight mirrors almost perfectly Orlais' decision to sit out the Fereldan Blight rather than risk aiding a potentially hostile power only to find themselves (as the Nevarrans later did) losing land in the ensuing chaos.
 
But, there will be people in this forum who prefer "lol sexy nun" to realistic depictions of how wars actually start.

Now someone needs to have the integrity to admit that what the elves did was not excusable, whether a future war was inevitable or not. This situation is NOT like Kirkwall. The elves walked into human territory. Kirkwall's mages didn't have much choice in being in Kirkwall. The elves had a choice, the mages did not.

See above, and no one is trying to say that Red Crossing was excusable. Literally no one. I keep repeating myself on this point, but it's apparently not getting through.

[MoonDrummer]

I don't think the elves actually sacked val royeaux, I think it was a Nazis at the gates of Moscow type thing.
If the elves reached val royeaux, then they must have marched through the heartlands and defeated Orlaisian forces along the way, it makes it hard to believe that orlais managed to recover to a point of being able to smash the elves into dirt without the help of other nations.

[Colonelkillabee]

See above, and no one is trying to say that Red Crossing was excusable. Literally no one. I keep repeating myself on this point, but it's apparently not getting through.

Yes, you are. Saying the war was inevitable is doing just that, as I said already.

 

Because that suggests the humans were also at fault for red crossing and the war pushed afterwards from then on. The war was only inevitable because those elves made it so.

 

And that sexy nun joke of yours is irrelevant really, as intentional death or not, they shouldn't have been trespassing in the first place, and had no real justification for retaliating after.

[MoonDrummer]

Killing Orlaisians is always justified.

[Colonelkillabee]

Killing Orlaisians is always justified.

Templars and chevaliers maybe. Nobles, hell yes, lol. Innocent peasants? No.

[MoonDrummer]

Templars and chevaliers maybe. Nobles, hell yes, lol. Innocent peasants? No.

Pfft would happily sell the entire population to corypheus

[Addai]

Yes, you are. Saying the war was inevitable is doing just that, as I said already.

 

Because that suggests the humans were also at fault for red crossing and the war pushed afterwards from then on. The war was only inevitable because those elves made it so.

 

And that sexy nun joke of yours is irrelevant really, as intentional death or not, they shouldn't have been trespassing in the first place, and had no real justification for retaliating after.

It's about as relevant as saying that Red Crossing happened in a vacuum, which is what you're doing.

[Colonelkillabee]

It's about as relevant as saying that Red Crossing happened in a vacuum, which is what you're doing.

Not at all really. What you're suggesting is that the elves basically can't control themselves, to the point to where they can march in on enemy territory, kill them, get killed, start a war for it, then claim it was inevitable because something that happened in the past.

 

I don't have to tell anyone how that sounds.

[Addai]

Not at all really. What you're suggesting is that the elves basically can't control themselves, to the point to where they can march in on enemy territory, kill them, get killed, start a war for it, then claim it was inevitable because something that happened in the past.

 

I don't have to tell anyone how that sounds.

That... is ridiculous.

 

All I'm saying is that wars don't happen in a vacuum, and that Red Crossing was tinder to a fire that was already set to burn. If it hadn't happened, something else would have. That's what I actually wrote and have been saying all along. There can be a proximal cause to something, but if you just narrowly look at that one event, you're obscuring the true picture which is always more complicated and most often (certainly, in this case) involves fault on both sides.

[Colonelkillabee]

That... is ridiculous.

 

All I'm saying is that wars don't happen in a vacuum, and that Red Crossing was tinder to a fire that was already set to burn. If it hadn't happened, something else would have. That's what I actually wrote and have been saying all along. There can be a proximal cause to something, but if you just narrowly look at that one event, you're obscuring the true picture which is always more complicated and most often (certainly, in this case) involves fault on both sides.

I agree. It IS ridiculous. Why even make the statement "if this hadn't happened, something else would have," if not to make a faulty excuse?

 

Wars don't happen in a vacuum, no, and the very first post I sent to you this morning said as much. That the elves responded the way they did, and the humans the way they did likely largely due to those tensions. It however does not make this war inevitable, because nothing about human and elven tensions changes the fact that they were trespassing, and already in the wrong from then on, and retaliated for the human's response, also wrongly. Past tensions did not make them trespass.

 

Involving fault is something I already said many pages ago. I also said most of it lied with the elves, a large portion, for this particular conflict. Red Crossing and the war following specifically. To the point to where saying both were at fault is irrelevant. That is true.

 

To sum things up: It's really not that complicated. Why a murderer decides to murder only decides the sentencing. They're still guilty.

 

Also, so what if something else would have caused a war, assuming this is true? Something else didn't. The elves did. Shuffling off a little blame here and there due to tensions in the past is really pointless. Stop saying the war was inevitable. It wasn't. Even if you think A war was inevitable, this one was not at all.

[LOLandStuff]

Elves be like:

 

"Dude, the humans aren't reacting."

"Let's ransack the next town. Maybe that would change their mind and declare war."

 

"Nothing!"

"Let's attack a city. We won't be the ones to start a war if nobody declares it."

 

"Still nothing."

"I say we sack their capital city and place of worship. If that doesn't stir them, I don't know what else does."

 

And then the Chantry declares an Exalted March. It's war but it doesn't have the word war in it. The only comfort the elves got from all of this is how the shemlen started a religious war and not territorial one.

 

Elves, such sore losers.

[Lulupab]

So when did Chevaliers lose to Emerald knights which caused to call for an exalted march in panic? Orlais was most likely retaliating but was losing without help of Templars and Mages.

[dragonflight288]

That's not what happened. Orlais didn't declared war on the Dales until they invaded and sacked Val Royeaux. And seriously, what's with the "the humans declared war?" Does Orlais represent humanity now?

 

This is false. The Dalish and Orlais were already at war well before then. What happened there was that the Chantry didn't get involved until the elves were on Val Royeaux's doorstep, and then declared an Exalted March. 

 

I don't think the Codex actually says the elves actually sacked Val Royeaux. 

[LOLandStuff]

I like how you keep making stuff up.

 

The Chantry got involved only because the elves were sacking Val Royeaux and their Grand Cathedral was there

[Colonelkillabee]

This is false. The Dalish and Orlais were already at war well before then. What happened there was that the Chantry didn't get involved until the elves were on Val Royeaux's doorstep, and then declared an Exalted March. 

 

I don't think the Codex actually says the elves actually sacked Val Royeaux. 

 

I checked the sources on the wiki, and neither of them lead to anything from the game actually saying this:

 

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales

 

Maybe someone can point this out, but yea I don't see anything saying the elves sacked Val Royeaux. This was the first I've heard of that today.

[Colonelkillabee]

Against the Dales See also: Dales

The cause of the conflict that resulting in the destruction of the Dales is disputed. The Dalish claim it was simple racial and religious persecution, saying templars invaded their kingdom when they kicked out Chantry missionaries. Chantry sources describe tensions building over the years as the elves became increasingly isolationist: The Dales barred all trade or discourse beyond their borders and only attracted greater ire when they refused to aid the human kingdoms during the Second Blight. There were rumors in the bordering Orlesian lands of the elves kidnapping humans to sacrifice to their gods and tensions reached a head with an elven attack on the village of Red Crossing.^[2]

The Exalted March was called only after the elves made serious gains and sacked the Orlesian capital of Val Royeaux. Uniquely amongst the Exalted Marches, only the Orlesian Empire fielded troops against the Dales. The elves were pushed back and eventually defeated, their capital of Halamshiral destroyed. An elven general named Rajmael is known to have thrown himself from Forlorn Falls rather than face defeat.^[3] The elves were then forced to either assimilate into Orlesian cities or adopt a nomadic lifestyle separated from humanity.

 

In source two and three, I couldn't find a game source saying they sacked the city, but maybe I'm missing it? Would like someone to clear this up. Sacking the city really makes the elves look worse, and I'd rather know for sure before continuing to use that in arguments.

[Lulupab]

I like how you keep making stuff up.

 

The Chantry got involved only because the elves were sacking Val Royeaux and their Grand Cathedral was there

 

How so? You expect me to believe Orlais did nothing while their cities were getting captured? Remember that Orlais is the only reason all Thedas does not belong to Tevinter, always has been.

 

The Chantry is created by Orlais, the system of a divine is created by Orlais and the chantry openly approved of invasion of Ferelden as well. Exalted march was the last invasion from humans. There was open conflict  for a decade and Orlais was starting to lose, so if this information is true ( which I don't think it is, Elves could be on the way but that city was never sacked) The exalted much was a result of Orlais losing the war on its own.

[Lulupab]

In source two and three, I couldn't find a game source saying they sacked the city, but maybe I'm missing it? Would like someone to clear this up. Sacking the city really makes the elves look worse, and I'd rather know for sure before continuing to use that in arguments.

 

Val Royeaux was never sacked, not by elves or anyone. I don't know if Drakon was originally located in Val Royeaux or if he captured it. Either way the city hasn't been sacked since Drakon.

[Colonelkillabee]

Val Royeaux was never sacked, not by elves or anyone. I don't know if Drakon was originally located in Val Royeaux or if he captured it. Either way the city hasn't been sacked since Drakon.

I didn't think so, lol. I don't go through the Wiki much so I've never heard anyone say Val Royeaux was sacked until now. That would be rather big.

[MoonDrummer]

If the elves were in the process of sacking val royeaux, realistically it would have been too late for the chantry To change the course of the war.

[dragonflight288]

If the elves were in the process of sacking val royeaux, realistically it would have been too late for the chantry I change the course of the war.

 

Especially since they're headquartered in Val Royeaux themselves. 

[MoonDrummer]

Especially since they're headquartered in Val Royeaux themselves.

The course of the war doesn't make much sense to me in general. For the elves to have reached Val Royeaux they would have need to battle through the most populated region of Orlais. Presumably they would have besieged and occupied the fortresses and cities in their way and fought successful battles with Orlais' armies.

By the time the elves reached Val Royeaux you would expect the Orlaisians to be on their last legs, then an exalted march is called Orlais has a new army and not only drives the elves back but smash their entire nation into dust.

RKO outta nowhere

[LOLandStuff]

Well, the elves brought it on themselves in the end.

They started a war and lost.

 

And why are some surprised the elves are treated the way they are. They're the ones hating on humans for their misery, since the fall of Arlathan. First thing they do after being helped escape slavery was isolate themselves because shemlen. Then they sat around watching humans getting butchered by darkspawn. And then took advantage of a weakened country and started invading because shemlen.

 

This inborn hate of theirs is what always gets them into trouble.

[MoonDrummer]

I think they isolated themselves to regain immortality.
Also sitting around will darkspawn attack humans is legit tactic.

[LOLandStuff]

I think they isolated themselves to regain immortality.
Also sitting around will darkspawn attack humans is legit tactic.

 

They've got big cohones, I'll give them that, for believing they could stand against the Blight on their own.

But they lost a war in 10 years from a country that recovered from a Blight. I'd have given them a year or so against a darkspawn invasion. And this is me being generous.