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[TheJediSaint]

He has some wry commentary about the Tevinter ego taking a hit due to some of the revelations.  It's not all that significant.

The Vints take their collective gangster cred very seriously.

[Willowhugger]

He has some wry commentary about the Tevinter ego taking a hit due to some of the revelations.  It's not all that significant.

That's weird because he tried to apologize to Solas in my run.

[TK514]

That's weird because he tried to apologize to Solas in my run.

 

He heard the rumor and was trying to get into Billy Zane's pants.

[Dean_the_Young]

He heard the rumor and was trying to get into Billy Zane's pants.

 

What rumor?

 

'Excuse me, I heard you had a god among elves in your pants. Mind showing me?'

 

That wouldn't be wrong, per say...

[Medhia_Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz:  Perhaps that's true - there's little in our real world to stop the armies of Mordor.

[Aren]

In your hateful imagination, maybe?

Really. Such an approach is insulting to anyone who actually tries to study history, do archeological research or is simply a member of culture which didn't preserve much of its history. 

People get history wrong and right all the time

The dalish also specialize mostly in oral traditions. Be grateful they don't call Mythal Mythanol or Fen'Harel Fox'Harel. Because in RL this happens all the time

Still they are so fool that they belive that the Valleslin are a mark of Honor. Because of their lack of konowledge about their history, their are proud to be slaves, it's so pathetic.

[Vit246]

Still they are so fool that they belive that the Valslin are a mark of Honor. Because of their lack of konowledge about their history, their are proud to be slaves.

 

Symbols change. The Modern Dalish tattoos are now symbols of pride and no longer slave markings. They are proud to be free, not slaves. Its not really "foolish" so much as tragic. They've lost so much from just two wars and centuries of suppression and struggle to preserve whats left. 

And the crucifix used to be a torture device, now its a holy icon.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Symbols change. The Modern Dalish tattoos are now symbols of pride and no longer slave markings. They are proud to be free, not slaves. Its not really "foolish" so much as tragic. They've lost so much from just two wars and centuries of suppression and struggle to preserve whats left. 

And the crucifix used to be a torture device, now its a holy icon.

 

True, symbols can change and represent something more positive then what they originally were supposed to convey, but the problem is that elves aren't re-purposing anything, they genuinely believe that their tattoos were always meant to show their reverence for their Creators (who happened to be asshats) and not just slave markings. Right now their just ignorant of their less then glorious past and need someone like Abelas or the Dalish Inquisitor to tell them the truth. Maybe then they can decide whether they should hold on to their vallaslin and re-purpose them or just throw away the whole thing and create something new.  

[Elfgahr]

I don't think anyone has history told correctly. Afterall, history is just just stories adults teach children to continue their legacy, culture, and belief, no matter how wrong or fictionous it is.

 

Everyone believes Adolf Hitler is the most evil dictator for what he did. In reality, we think he is a demon because of what our textbooks tell us and that what we must write in our tests to get that high school diploma. No one in this age has ever shook hand with that bastard to claim that Hitler was indeed an a-hole. People could've just made up Jews being tortured to exaggerated how demonic that dictator is. And since the victor who writes (and fabricate) history, they are those who decide and teach (or even manipulate) their children who were the ones at fault in that situation so we can blame them until today.

 

Anyway the point is that history is tales of how we got here today, whether it was Adam and Eve, or dinosaurs and apes, only those who has lived through those period are the only ones who witnessed reality and how the truth plays out. So just be Sera and go "f*** tradition" and live life today, since we can never truly live those past to say that such event did happen. All those knights of Emerald Graves could've died from cancer and illness like the Aztec while Dalish falsely believe and sing songs of how heroic they were. History is not keeper of truth, it is simple, fragile, and easily twisted just like any stories that are told.

[In Exile]

Symbols change. The Modern Dalish tattoos are now symbols of pride and no longer slave markings. They are proud to be free, not slaves. Its not really "foolish" so much as tragic. They've lost so much from just two wars and centuries of suppression and struggle to preserve whats left.
And the crucifix used to be a torture device, now its a holy icon.

But people knew what the crufix was before it was adopted as a symbol. And it was adopted because JC got nailed to a cross.

The Dalish think those tatoos honour their gods. They do, sort of. But not how they think. That's what makes it sad and a little pathetic. Their self-righteous attitude about it when combined with their almost complete ignorance of it.

[TheJediSaint]

But people knew what the crufix was before it was adopted as a symbol. And it was adopted because JC got nailed to a cross.

The Dalish think those tatoos honour their gods. They do, sort of. But not how they think. That's what makes it sad and a little pathetic. Their self-righteous attitude about it when combined with their almost complete ignorance of it.

It will be interesting (and amusing) to see what happens when the Dalish idea of ancient elven culture encounters the reality of it.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

As an elf Inquisitor, I was disappointed I didn't get to screw more humans over in the game. Bioware really hates their elves. You can murder a whole dalish clan in DAO, every elf you meet in DA2 is dumb as hell and DAI is pretty much a slap to all the dalish and even your elf companions hate other elves.

[In Exile]

As an elf Inquisitor, I was disappointed I didn't get to screw more humans over in the game. Bioware really hates their elves. You can murder a whole dalish clan in DAO, every elf you meet in DA2 is dumb as hell and DAI is pretty much a slap to all the dalish and even your elf companions hate other elves.

The Dalish are Bioware's parable about xenophobic cultures. The elves were an altogether impressive and foundational race in Thedas. Their culture invented wonders that go so far beyond what the Dalish think about the world that they can't even conceive of it. But what the Dalish think those elves were is nothing like what their actual history was like.

Sera doesn't want an identity pushed on her because she has pointy ears. Solas, having more or less seen the actual elves of Arlathan, doesn't like the caricature of the past the Dalish have created.

[dragonflight288]

Still they are so fool that they belive that the Valslin are a mark of Honor. Because of their lack of konowledge about their history, their are proud to be slaves.

 

They lack knowledge of their ancestors and recognize it, but the Valleslin is no longer a mark of slavery. It's evolved to be a symbol of honor and a rite of passage into adulthood, being able to take the pain of it being placed on you shows you can handle being an adult. 

 

Saying they should be ashamed of a symbol that no longer means what is used to mean is no different from saying that people who believe in christianity or some other monolithic religion (one-God) should give up the idea of the Easter bunny who was actually an ancient pagan God called Eastre, and was considered a god of fertility. 

 

Symbols and meanings change over time, not just in representation but the entire definition of a word can change as well. No one using the word "gay" today means what it meant as early as thirty years ago, joyful and merry compared to homosexual as it is used today. 

 

Or should we try and change linguistic and cultural evolution because things don't mean today what they meant yesterday?

 

And yes, I recognize that the Dalish want to rebuild the lost culture, but that's not going to happen. But they can try and reclaim the lost knowledge of magic and technology, and it looks like that the ancient elves had the best magical knowledge and technology based on them having artifacts being able to strengthen the veil just by being activated, magic mirrors that act as communication and fast travel devices, and because it's confirmed that they were in fact immortal, many of their spells took years to cast, but built up and added on each other in a symbiotic relation. 

 

So to answer your statement, no, the Dalish are not proud to be slaves. Rather the opposite, they are proud to be the, in their eyes, only truly free elves, as they are free to choose their paths, choose their religion, and if they wish to remain in a clan they can (unless they get kicked out for whatever reason) or they can choose to leave and be in a relationship with a human or city elf, or live in a city, and no one in the clan will stop them. 

 

The Valleslin may have meant slavery once upon a time, but it doesn't anymore. 

[Steelcan]

I love that Vallesin are the equivalent of getting a tattoo of a Chinese character that you think means "peace" but turns out to mean "goose fart" or something

[Steelcan]

Oh yeah, only the Dalish romanticize and idealize their past. No other race or nationality in Thedas does it too. They are all perfectly objective and upfront about everything regarding their past and people. Everyone fully admits to and frequently talks about everything shameful, embarrassing, and amoral about their own cultures except the Dalish. They are the one exception.
 
I mean, it's not like the Chantry idealizes Andraste as this beautiful, peaceful, all-loving maternal healer despite how she was a ruthless warleader in her life. It's not like the Chantry slashed Shartan from the Canticles of Light after relations between humans and elves plummeted, and continue to erase positive mentions of elves in human history. It's not like Cassandra admits that mages helped her save the Divine's life, but while she got all the glory and promoted to being The Right Hand of the Divine, they got conveniently phased out and forgotten from the story, and the conversation makes it clear that this is typical.
 
It's not like the dwarves of Orzammar like to pretend they are still this proud, prosperous, glorious empire filled with honor and reason, despite how they are a slowly decaying ruin in a hole underground filled with corruption, hypocrisy, lying, cheating, backstabbing, and power-grabbing. It's not like they are a culture that feels the appearance of honor is more important than actual honorable behavior. 
 
It's not like Tevinter downplays their involvement in the creation of the Blight. It's not like they elect their own Chantry with their own Divine, their own Templars, and their own Circle system that happens to support their own magic ideals and enslaving lifestyle, instead of keeping with the one that gets in the way of their power-grabbing magocrasy. It's not like Dorian goes into great detail about how Tevinter would rather pretend they never did anything wrong - pretend they have a perfectly moral reason for everything they do (from enslaving to torturing to murdering to demon-summoning to using blood magic on unwilling recipients), pretend they're still in their glory days and are superior to everyone else - even when the reality doesn't match the ideal.
 
Noooo! It's just the Dalish.
 
They alone cling to past glory after losing everything, and they alone prefer to talk up the positive bits of their people and history but downplay the shameful and embarrassing bits.
 
Clearly, they are the only flawed culture in Thedas, and they alone deserve to be wiped out for it; metaphorically at best, literally at worst. 

The difference is that the Dalish have stubbornly refused to admit wrong doing and have this self superior attitude. They lord themselves over all others as if their sh*t don't stink.

We see chantry mothers admitting the past crimes of the Chantry, Tevinter mages seeking to atone for their nation's mistakes. Behlen trying to change the fortunes of the dwarves.

But then there's the Dalish whose religious beliefs call for the destruction or extermination of all humanity. Or their denialism of their past crimes. Ignore that they started the war with Orlais, they destroyed Arlathan, and they have the gall to act the victim.


Oh but they sent a deer, that makes up for it all

[In Exile]

Oh yeah, only the Dalish romanticize and idealize their past. No other race or nationality in Thedas does it too. They are all perfectly objective and upfront about everything regarding their past and people. Everyone fully admits to and frequently talks about everything shameful, embarrassing, and amoral about their own cultures except the Dalish. They are the one exception.

I mean, it's not like the Chantry idealizes Andraste as this beautiful, peaceful, all-loving maternal healer despite how she was a ruthless warleader in her life. It's not like the Chantry slashed Shartan from the Canticles of Light after relations between humans and elves plummeted, and continue to erase positive mentions of elves in human history. It's not like Cassandra admits that mages helped her save the Divine's life, but while she got all the glory and promoted to being The Right Hand of the Divine, they got conveniently phased out and forgotten from the story, and the conversation makes it clear that this is typical.

It's not like the dwarves of Orzammar like to pretend they are still this proud, prosperous, glorious empire filled with honor and reason, despite how they are a slowly decaying ruin in a hole underground filled with corruption, hypocrisy, lying, cheating, backstabbing, and power-grabbing. It's not like they are a culture that feels the appearance of honor is more important than actual honorable behavior.

It's not like Tevinter downplays their involvement in the creation of the Blight. It's not like they elect their own Chantry with their own Divine, their own Templars, and their own Circle system that happens to support their own magic ideals and enslaving lifestyle, instead of keeping with the one that gets in the way of their power-grabbing magocrasy. It's not like Dorian goes into great detail about how Tevinter would rather pretend they never did anything wrong - pretend they have a perfectly moral reason for everything they do (from enslaving to torturing to murdering to demon-summoning to using blood magic on unwilling recipients), pretend they're still in their glory days and are superior to everyone else - even when the reality doesn't match the ideal.

Noooo! It's just the Dalish.

They alone cling to past glory after losing everything, and they alone prefer to talk up the positive bits of their people and history but downplay the shameful and embarrassing bits.

Clearly, they are the only flawed culture in Thedas, and they alone deserve to be wiped out for it; metaphorically at best, literally at worst.

The Dalish are the only group that (1) defines itself by recovery of a lost history and culture (2) adamantly believes that the knowledge they have recovered is accurate and (3) turn out to be quite wrong about their beliefs.

The Tevinters completely white-washed their history, but (at least based on what we hear from Dorian) have some modicum of sense (in some cornera) that they're full of it. The dwarves live in make believe land, but they do acknowledge that they make up their past. They just don't openly acknowledge it.

These groups aren't better, but they present their culture in a way that makes it a lot harder to challenge it head on as it is with the Dalish. Plus everyone kicked the chantry even more than the Dalish so that's not a good comparison.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

The Dalish are the only group that (1) defines itself by recovery of a lost history and culture (2) adamantly believes that the knowledge they have recovered is accurate and (3) turn out to be quite wrong about their beliefs. 

 

Totally untrue. 

 

Humans and the Chant, the Tevinters with their Black Divine and their version of the Chant and darkspawn, the Qun and its followers, the Dwarves and the memories alongside tradition....

 

Dissonent Verses, magisters going into the Golden City, memories being removed when politically inconvenient, and so on. Every group has the exact same issues. Difference between the Dalish and all the other groups is the quantity of how much history has been lost. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Oh yeah, only the Dalish romanticize and idealize their past. No other race or nationality in Thedas does it too. They are all perfectly objective and upfront about everything regarding their past and people. Everyone fully admits to and frequently talks about everything shameful, embarrassing, and amoral about their own cultures except the Dalish. They are the one exception.

 

I mean, it's not like the Chantry idealizes Andraste as this beautiful, peaceful, all-loving maternal healer despite how she was a ruthless warleader in her life. It's not like the Chantry slashed Shartan from the Canticles of Light after relations between humans and elves plummeted, and continue to erase positive mentions of elves in human history. It's not like Cassandra admits that mages helped her save the Divine's life, but while she got all the glory and promoted to being The Right Hand of the Divine, they got conveniently phased out and forgotten from the story, and the conversation makes it clear that this is typical.

 

It's not like the dwarves of Orzammar like to pretend they are still this proud, prosperous, glorious empire filled with honor and reason, despite how they are a slowly decaying ruin in a hole underground filled with corruption, hypocrisy, lying, cheating, backstabbing, and power-grabbing. It's not like they are a culture that feels the appearance of honor is more important than actual honorable behavior. 

 

It's not like Tevinter downplays their involvement in the creation of the Blight. It's not like they elect their own Chantry with their own Divine, their own Templars, and their own Circle system that happens to support their own magic ideals and enslaving lifestyle, instead of keeping with the one that gets in the way of their power-grabbing magocrasy. It's not like Dorian goes into great detail about how Tevinter would rather pretend they never did anything wrong - pretend they have a perfectly moral reason for everything they do (from enslaving to torturing to murdering to demon-summoning to using blood magic on unwilling recipients), pretend they're still in their glory days and are superior to everyone else - even when the reality doesn't match the ideal.

 

Noooo! It's just the Dalish.

 

They alone cling to past glory after losing everything, and they alone prefer to talk up the positive bits of their people and history but downplay the shameful and embarrassing bits.

 

Clearly, they are the only flawed culture in Thedas, and they alone deserve to be wiped out for it; metaphorically at best, literally at worst. 

 

Whoever said the Dalish were alone with their false re-imagining of the past? Alright, some people did here but that's ridiculous and they know it.

 

I've always been of the opinion that their is no faction, race or organization in Thedas that is wholly good, they all have negative qualities and they all suck on some level, and this revelation about the Elves and their Creators just confirms that their just like everyone else. I just have a problem with people defending them when their no better then anyone else in this setting. 

 

Honestly, Thedas is a land filled with arseholes who won't admit that their crap stinks. 

[Timpants]

The Tevinters completely white-washed their history, but (at least based on what we hear from Dorian) have some modicum of sense (in some cornera) that they're full of it. The dwarves live in make believe land, but they do acknowledge that they make up their past. They just don't openly acknowledge it.
 

Yeah, says Dorian, the guy who was lucky enough to be born into a family that could afford an education for him. The majority of Tevinters will have no idea their history is white-washed. It'll be the same with the Dwarves as well, and every other country in Thedas. The only difference between them and the Dalish is that no one tried to wipe out their history, so the people at the top are able to get a better idea about what happened in the past. The masses however will have no clue.

[Aren]

Symbols change. The Modern Dalish tattoos are now symbols of pride and no longer slave markings. They are proud to be free, not slaves. Its not really "foolish" so much as tragic. They've lost so much from just two wars and centuries of suppression and struggle to preserve whats left. 

And the crucifix used to be a torture device, now its a holy icon.

Not for the valleslin they are tattoos associated with slavery and cannot be compared to the crucifix that is associated with suffering.

Abelas and Solas find this practice as a bad things, since they belongs to the true immortal  ancient elven peoples i prefer their point of view on the matter, the dalish use the valaslin because they really dont konw the truth bheind them. A female dalish inquisitor on romance  with Solas finally have the chance to discover the truth.

Since we are talking about elvean history, we have a precious resource Solas and Abelas  the dalish will benefit from both of them, and they will stop to pray for their master god who cares nothing about their status, and they will stop to treat The Dread wolf as a traitor.

[Helios969]

What I'd like to know is why the spirit (of Mythal?) is human?  The one who defends your party as you flee through the mirror back to Skyhold.

 

Anyway did the Valleslin conversation with Solas yesterday...which was a bit of a shock.  Had Solas remove them.  Funny no one seems to notice the lack of facial tattoos.  Man I'm loving all the mystery surrounding the past with the ancient elves and the direction DA is heading.  I've never paid much attention to codex entries in the past but I find myself stopping and reading on anything regarding the elves of the past and the ancient gods.  A thousand possibilities floating through my brain.  Good stuff.

[Aren]

They lack knowledge of their ancestors and recognize it, but the Valleslin is no longer a mark of slavery. It's evolved to be a symbol of honor and a rite of passage into adulthood, being able to take the pain of it being placed on you shows you can handle being an adult. 

 

Saying they should be ashamed of a symbol that no longer means what is used to mean is no different from saying that people who believe in christianity or some other monolithic religion (one-God) should give up the idea of the Easter bunny who was actually an ancient pagan God called Eastre, and was considered a god of fertility. 

 

Symbols and meanings change over time, not just in representation but the entire definition of a word can change as well. No one using the word "gay" today means what it meant as early as thirty years ago, joyful and merry compared to homosexual as it is used today. 

 

Or should we try and change linguistic and cultural evolution because things don't mean today what they meant yesterday?

 

And yes, I recognize that the Dalish want to rebuild the lost culture, but that's not going to happen. But they can try and reclaim the lost knowledge of magic and technology, and it looks like that the ancient elves had the best magical knowledge and technology based on them having artifacts being able to strengthen the veil just by being activated, magic mirrors that act as communication and fast travel devices, and because it's confirmed that they were in fact immortal, many of their spells took years to cast, but built up and added on each other in a symbiotic relation. 

 

So to answer your statement, no, the Dalish are not proud to be slaves. Rather the opposite, they are proud to be the, in their eyes, only truly free elves, as they are free to choose their paths, choose their religion, and if they wish to remain in a clan they can (unless they get kicked out for whatever reason) or they can choose to leave and be in a relationship with a human or city elf, or live in a city, and no one in the clan will stop them. 

 

The Valleslin may have meant slavery once upon a time, but it doesn't anymore. 

Imho they still remains as marks of slavery, the dalish really dont know the meaning of their symbol, the vallaslin are not just beautiful body tattoos, they represent a magical bound to a certain elven deity, they were used as mark to identify the salves bounded to their master maybe with some kind of ancient magic.Look at the well of sorrow, the power of Mythal force whoever drink from the well to be a slave or even worse a puppet, even Abelas one who is loyal to her goddess, consider this bound unworthy.Truth it's a beginning and now the Dalish can start to remove this practice instead to enjoy their proud little cult

i believe that is better late then never.