1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Roamingmachine]

Imho they still remains as marks of slavery, the dalish really dont know the meaning of their symbol, the vallaslin are not just beautiful body tattoos, they represent a magical bound to a certain elven deity, they were used as mark to identify the salves bounded to their master maybe with some kind of ancient magic.Look at the well of sorrow, the power of Mythal force whoever drink from the well to be a slave or even worse a puppet, even Abelas one who is loyal to her goddess, consider this bound unworthy.Truth it's a beginning and now the Dalish can start to remove this practice instead to enjoy their proud little cult
i believe that is better late then never.

No they don't
The Dalish took up the tattoos after the fall of the Dales as a giant middle finger to the humans. To make themselves distinct. And in their use, the vallaslin do honor the gods without slavery. It is patently obvious to all but the most ardent haters of the Dalish. You say the crucifix isn't the same thing? It is. Always has been. But arguing with someone like you is pointless.

[Addai]

What I'd like to know is why the spirit (of Mythal?) is human?  The one who defends your party as you flee through the mirror back to Skyhold.

 

Anyway did the Valleslin conversation with Solas yesterday...which was a bit of a shock.  Had Solas remove them.  Funny no one seems to notice the lack of facial tattoos.  Man I'm loving all the mystery surrounding the past with the ancient elves and the direction DA is heading.  I've never paid much attention to codex entries in the past but I find myself stopping and reading on anything regarding the elves of the past and the ancient gods.  A thousand possibilities floating through my brain.  Good stuff.

I believe the woman in the well is young Flemeth, Mythal's avatar.

 

There are a couple dialogues about the missing vallaslin. A banter with Cassandra and Solas and one with Cole and Solas, and a little conversation with Josephine and Inquisitor. And it puts Sera in stitches.

[Dean_the_Young]

No they don't
The Dalish took up the tattoos after the fall of the Dales as a giant middle finger to the humans. To make themselves distinct. And in their use, the vallaslin do honor the gods without slavery. It is patently obvious to all but the most ardent haters of the Dalish. You say the crucifix isn't the same thing? It is. Always has been. But arguing with someone like you is pointless.

 

The difference between the crucifix and the vallaslin is that the meaning of the crucifx wasn't lost, forgotten, or misremembered. It changed without confusing it's contemporary meaning for it's historic meaning. The symbol for mercy was derived from the memory of the suffering of the crucifixion- it derived the new meaning from the old, without claiming that the new meaning was the old.

 

Dalish cultural practices don't make the distinction, or even have the awareness. A large part of the Dalish cultural conceit is that they are restored The Original Elven Culture- and that what they do is reclaiming what's always been done, how it's always been done, and for the reasons it's always been done. The Vallaslin isn't simply 'something we used to do to slaves, but it means something else now' to the Dalish. It is 'this is how the True Elves honor the gods.'

 

The difference between evolution and misremembering a symbol is awareness that there was a change.

[Addai]

I think it's possible that the Dalish did initially intend to subvert the vallaslin. Their nobles failed them but they endured, and decided to keep the marks as a memory of that. Symbols do go through different iterations of meaning, this is normal, especially in cultures without much written history.

 

I think the bottom line is that whatever they used to mean, they mean something else now. Lavellan's decision to keep or remove the vallaslin is done for her own personal reasons and even if the Dalish learned the truth about the marks' origins, some of them would probably still choose to keep them.

 

And no, they don't pretend that they are the restored elvhen society. They know they're only a remnant. They don't say we're the Original, they say we're the last, and they're aware that they're forced to make compromises and that they don't know everything that went on before. Sarel tells you this in Origins- and that the elves participated in their own downfall. It's also patently false that their culture is built around exterminating humans. Clans have always traded with human settlements, they live side by side fairly peacefully with humans in Rivain, and they signed Grey Warden treaties. It's ridiculous that in threads like these you have to repeat the basic facts of elven lore again and again.

[Roamingmachine]

The difference between the crucifix and the vallaslin is that the meaning of the crucifx wasn't lost, forgotten, or misremembered. It changed without confusing it's contemporary meaning for it's historic meaning. The symbol for mercy was derived from the memory of the suffering of the crucifixion- it derived the new meaning from the old, without claiming that the new meaning was the old.
 
Dalish cultural practices don't make the distinction, or even have the awareness. A large part of the Dalish cultural conceit is that they are restored The Original Elven Culture- and that what they do is reclaiming what's always been done, how it's always been done, and for the reasons it's always been done. The Vallaslin isn't simply 'something we used to do to slaves, but it means something else now' to the Dalish. It is 'this is how the True Elves honor the gods.'
 
The difference between evolution and misremembering a symbol is awareness that there was a change.

 

Repurposing=//=evolution.

 

Whether a symbols original purpose is remembered or not is completely irrelevant when it is repurposed. The vallaslin didn't derive a new meaning from the old, the Dalish outright gave it a new meaning as a banner of defiance and they never claimed otherwise. Honoring the gods was a secondary purpose. And as it happens, they did honor the gods in ancient arlathan too. Only the spesifics were forgotten. 

[LOLandStuff]

The Dalish don't know any better to give any meaning.

Defiance...pfff. "We wear these marks of slavery to defy shemlen slavery. At least we slaved elves and not some stinky sexy shemlen." I'm sure that's what they'll say when they find out the meaning.

And honoring the gods? Some douches who were worshiped by the elite who slapped tattoos on their slaves.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think it's possible that the Dalish did initially intend to subvert the vallaslin. Their nobles failed them but they endured, and decided to keep the marks as a memory of that. Symbols do go through different iterations of meaning, this is normal, especially in cultures without much written history.

 

That's nice, but it's unabashedly head canon. There's no lore support for that.

 

I think the bottom line is that whatever they used to mean, they mean something else now. Lavellan's decision to keep or remove the vallaslin is done for her own personal reasons and even if the Dalish learned the truth about the marks' origins, some of them would probably still choose to keep them.

 

 

Sure- but no matter whether they keep it or not, their understanding of the historic meaning of the symbol was objectively wrong. Whether they turn it into something new in its own right, now that they can't claim their understanding is something old, is where they'll go next.

 

 

And no, they don't pretend that they are the restored elvhen society. They know they're only a remnant. They don't say we're the Original, they say we're the last, and they're aware that they're forced to make compromises and that they don't know everything that went on before. Sarel tells you this in Origins- and that the elves participated in their own downfall.

 

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The Dalish acknowledge they are a remnant- but they also claim to be a remnant restoring and reclaiming what was lost. They are reclemationists, and a part of that is that they place great value on the original's lore and values, which they largely believe they have rebuilt their way of life around (bar the aftermath of the fall of the Dales).

 

This is important to them for the same reasons that, say, Originalism is an important school of thought in American constitutional theory. The original premise and intent, and not just modern understandings, is what is considered legitimate and important.
 

 

It's also patently false that their culture is built around exterminating humans. Clans have always traded with human settlements, they live side by side fairly peacefully with humans in Rivain, and they signed Grey Warden treaties. It's ridiculous that in threads like these you have to repeat the basic facts of elven lore again and again.

 

 

Huzzah wha? I wasn't aware I had claimed that Dalish culture is built around exterminating humans. Wishes aside (the whole waiting for humans to die off to reclaim Thedas bit in their lore), I can't recall claiming the Dalish were actively genocidal.

 

They're xenophobic and occasionally murderous, but not genocidal. Where did you get that I believed that?

 

Repurposing=//=evolution.

 

Whether a symbols original purpose is remembered or not is completely irrelevant when it is repurposed. The vallaslin didn't derive a new meaning from the old, the Dalish outright gave it a new meaning as a banner of defiance and they never claimed otherwise. Honoring the gods was a secondary purpose. And as it happens, they did honor the gods in ancient arlathan too. Only the spesifics were forgotten. 

 

I'm glad we agree that it wasn't an evolution. But it's not a re-purposing either- in order to re-purpose a symbol, the original purpose must be known. The Dalish believe they reclaimed it, that what it means to them is what it has always mean- a symbol of defiance and freedom.

 

The Dalish cultural context isn't 'this is what the symbol means to us,' but 'this is what it meant.'

[Addai]

That's nice, but it's unabashedly head canon. There's no lore support for that.

Your suppositions are rational conclusions but mine are "headcanon." Got it.
 

This is important to them for the same reasons that, say, Originalism is an important school of thought in American constitutional theory. The original premise and intent, and not just modern understandings, is what is considered legitimate and important.

Indeed, but people also assume the Dalish can't admit wrong or adapt, which isn't the case. And I also don't agree that they're all about "this is the way it was" rather than "we do this to hold together." A major theme of the Dalish is their tribal identity, that they hold together and take care of their own. The tattoos mark out friend from potential foe. This is also part of their meaning.
 

Huzzah wha? I wasn't aware I had claimed that Dalish culture is built around exterminating humans. Wishes aside (the whole waiting for humans to die off to reclaim Thedas bit in their lore), I can't recall claiming the Dalish were actively genocidal.
 
They're xenophobic and occasionally murderous, but not genocidal. Where did you get that I believed that?

Not you, I switched to responding to a different poster, sorry.

[Dean_the_Young]

Your suppositions are rational conclusions but mine are "headcanon." Got it.

 

If it's in there, by all means show it. I'll happily admit my error on this claim. But if it's not in the lore, then your claim is head canon because you make it entirely unsupported by the lore.
 

 

Indeed, but people also assume the Dalish can't admit wrong or adapt, which isn't the case. And I also don't agree that they're all about "this is the way it was" rather than "we do this to hold together." A major theme of the Dalish is their tribal identity, that they hold together and take care of their own. The tattoos mark out friend from potential foe. This is also part of their meaning.

 

 

I think the Dalish can adapt- in fact I'm quite optimistic of that, which is a large part of why I'm disappointed in their culture rather than apathetic about them. But the willingness of the Dalish tribes we've seen to move forward past the mistaken notions of the past has tended to come only after they let go of it. The history of Dalish tatoos are a minor, but typical, part of it- I have no issue with the tatoos as identity markings, but the Dalish need to make an awareness and clean break from their idealic past that those tatoos tie into.

 

Not you, I switched to responding to a different poster, sorry.

 

Forum drops post names at times. No biggie.

[Roamingmachine]

I'm glad we agree that it wasn't an evolution. But it's not a re-purposing either- in order to re-purpose a symbol, the original purpose must be known. The Dalish believe they reclaimed it, that what it means to them is what it has always mean- a symbol of defiance and freedom.

Pretty sure that the definition of repurposing is to find a new use for something. To repurpose a thing or a symbol you don't need to know what they were used for before or even what they were called, only find a new use for it. The Dalish have never known anything about the vallaslin beyond that they honoured the gods. Everything else they consciously added later, such as the showing their defiance and as a symbol of adulthood, which it also is. You are putting words in their mouths by claiming otherwise. The vallaslin the Dalish wear is culturally utterly Dalish  both in meaning and use and that is something that they have never claimed to be otherwise. After all, since they only really came in to use after the fall of the Dales, we can conclude that they were not considered important there.

'Ah!' , I hear the forum go, 'Perhaps they knew the original use of them in the emerald kingdom!'. No, they didn't. The vallaslin were taken up shortly after the fall when the memories from the Dales were still fresh. The vallaslin as they now exist completely Dalish, nothing more and nothing less.

[herkles]

Pretty sure that the definition of repurposing is to find a new use for something. To repurpose a thing or a symbol you don't need to know what they were used for before or even what they were called, only find a new use for it. The Dalish have never known anything about the vallaslin beyond that they honoured the gods. Everything else they consciously added later, such as the showing their defiance and as a symbol of adulthood, which it also is. You are putting words in their mouths by claiming otherwise. The vallaslin the Dalish wear is culturally utterly Dalish  both in meaning and use and that is something that they have never claimed to be otherwise. After all, since they only really came in to use after the fall of the Dales, we can conclude that they were not considered important there.

'Ah!' , I hear the forum go, 'Perhaps they knew the original use of them in the emerald kingdom!'. No, they didn't. The vallaslin were taken up shortly after the fall when the memories from the Dales were still fresh. The vallaslin as they now exist completely Dalish, nothing more and nothing less.

Also you can make this exact point to Solas and he seemed to respect lavellan for that perspective. 

[In Exile]

Totally untrue.

Humans and the Chant, the Tevinters with their Black Divine and their version of the Chant and darkspawn, the Qun and its followers, the Dwarves and the memories alongside tradition....

Dissonent Verses, magisters going into the Golden City, memories being removed when politically inconvenient, and so on. Every group has the exact same issues. Difference between the Dalish and all the other groups is the quantity of how much history has been lost.

None of the things you listed satisfy what I set out at all. The Chant is not about the recovery of a lost history. Neither is the Black Divine. The shaperate is the opposite: they do everything possible to AVOID recalling their actual history instead of a white-washed version.

The Dalish aren't suppressing a known history for (reasons). They honestly believe they've uncovered the truth. And are quite self-righteous about it. They base their whole identity on it.

[Addai]

If it's in there, by all means show it. I'll happily admit my error on this claim. But if it's not in the lore, then your claim is head canon because you make it entirely unsupported by the lore.

The history of Arlathan's fall and how the Dalish became the Dalish is obscure, but that means it's obscure for thee as well as me. You're assuming stuff, I'm pointing out it could be a different way.

[In Exile]

Pretty sure that the definition of repurposing is to find a new use for something. To repurpose a thing or a symbol you don't need to know what they were used for before or even what they were called, only find a new use for it. The Dalish have never known anything about the vallaslin beyond that they honoured the gods. Everything else they consciously added later, such as the showing their defiance and as a symbol of adulthood, which it also is. You are putting words in their mouths by claiming otherwise. The vallaslin the Dalish wear is culturally utterly Dalish both in meaning and use and that is something that they have never claimed to be otherwise. After all, since they only really came in to use after the fall of the Dales, we can conclude that they were not considered important there.
'Ah!' , I hear the forum go, 'Perhaps they knew the original use of them in the emerald kingdom!'. No, they didn't. The vallaslin were taken up shortly after the fall when the memories from the Dales were still fresh. The vallaslin as they now exist completely Dalish, nothing more and nothing less.

We're going in circles, but they can't be completely Dalish. Because their Dalish meaning is "a symbol of how we've reclaimed part of our past", which they haven't. It's not about taking something that meant one thing and making it mean another.

The symbolism to the Dalish - when they adopted it - was reclamation. The fact that they've been using the a lot to mean something else doesn't change that reality.

It's just like their theology, which treats their gods as benevolent missing forces rather that violent, narcistic tyrants or belief that their society (which was a peaceful utopia) fell because of humans and not their own character failings.

[Roamingmachine]

We're going in circles, but they can't be completely Dalish. Because their Dalish meaning is "a symbol of how we've reclaimed part of our past", which they haven't. It's not about taking something that meant one thing and making it mean another.

The symbolism to the Dalish - when they adopted it - was reclamation. The fact that they've been using the a lot to mean something else doesn't change that reality.

It's just like their theology, which treats their gods as benevolent missing forces rather that violent, narcistic tyrants or belief that their society (which was a peaceful utopia) fell because of humans and not their own character failings.

"When the children of our people came of age, they earn the privilege of wearing the vallaslin, the blood writing. It sets us apart from the shemlen, and from the elves who have thrown their lot in with them. It reminds us that we will never again surrender our traditions and beliefs."

THAT is the Dalish meaning and symbolism of the vallaslin. Straight from the codex as told by the dalish to eachother. No ifs, no buts.Point to me where anything about reclamation is said there. ANYTHING. You can't. Because those claims only exists on these boards. Disinformation and nothing more.And it has been that from the beginning.  THAT is the reality of the vallaslin.

[In Exile]

"When the children of our people came of age, they earn the privilege of wearing the vallaslin, the blood writing. It sets us apart from the shemlen, and from the elves who have thrown their lot in with them. It reminds us that we will never again surrender our traditions and beliefs."

THAT is the Dalish meaning and symbolism of the vallaslin. Straight from the codex as told by the dalish to eachother. No ifs, no buts.Point to me where anything about reclamation is said there. ANYTHING. You can't. Because those claims only exists on these boards. Disinformation and nothing more.And it has been that from the beginning. THAT is the reality of the vallaslin.

Read the second part of the codex that you omitted. I can't post it because I'm on my phone. The process of meditation - and what they're meditating on - sets out their veneration of the past. The fact that they tie it to the worship of an old elven god - the fact that each tatoo is that same ancient symbol, and the fact that each is chosen for its perceived meaning to that god - is so painfully and obviously a reclamation of the past that any other conclusion is just willful blindness.

A chest thumping rant in a codex entry does not change the actual role of the tattoo. The purpose isn't to show off that they're really racist against other elves, as that codex entry says.

[calvinien]

We know that the Dalish have their history wrong, that they only seem to remember the good parts about their gods.  At first I didn't think that made sense, but then I thought, who would have been most able to survive not only their infighting when their gods were sealed away, but also live through being made slaves by the Imperium?  The elves that had been treated the worst would not of lived through that many battles, the only ones who would be fit enough and healthy enough would of been those that had been favored, those that had received the best treatment by their gods.  They would be the ones who began telling their children of the gods, if all they ever cared to see was their own better treatment of course their eventual descendants wouldn't know about the horrible treatment of those who died long ago and never had children to share their side of the story with.

That's actually common of most religions.

 

Look at the chantry. The maker makes the fade, is disatisfied, makes the world. The world isn't perfect so he says ****** off, have some darkspawn. Now only if people grovel enough will he do anything. The chantry paints this as him being merciful when it's really the actions of a petty vindictive incompetent dumdum. He punishes his creations for mistakes only a few of them made.

 

Or look at real world religions. Hebrew mythology has Yahweh harden the pharao's heart so he won't let the hebrews go...even after the plagues worked. He did this so she could show off his power. Not only could he have done that anyway (red sea anyone?) without killing anybody, he could have changed the pharaoh's mind at any time. Yet he is presented as a good guy.

 

A couple other mythologies have a deity who is supposed to be all loving but will brutally torture you forever for not loving him enough. This is presented as a good thing. Jehova's whitnesses believe that only 144 000 people get into heaven, and the rest of the faithful live on a perfected earth...which begs the question as to why god doens't just perfect the earth RIGHT now. That would win more converts than going door to door.

 

Then there's the infamous bit with the mormon's and the two golden plates read out of a seerstone. T outsider's it seems like the story itself demonstrates joseph smith was a con man. To mormons it proves he was honest.

 

All the big religions take their weaknesses and try to trun them to strengths. Those that don't tend not to last. The religions of thedas are no different.

[Roamingmachine]

Read the second part of the codex that you omitted. I can't post it because I'm on my phone. The process of meditation - and what they're meditating on - sets out their veneration of the past. The fact that they tie it to the worship of an old elven god - the fact that each tatoo is that same ancient symbol, and the fact that each is chosen for its perceived meaning to that god - is so painfully and obviously a reclamation of the past that any other conclusion is just willful blindness.

A chest thumping rant in a codex entry does not change the actual role of the tattoo. The purpose isn't to show off that they're really racist against other elves, as that codex entry says.

The process sets out their veneration of their gods and THEIR CULTURE. "On the ways of our people" is the exact wording. Nothing about the past said once again. You are simply making stuff up now. That, combined with the bolded part of your post tells me enough. We're done. Buh-bye.

[hong]

I've just realized that "it's not in the lore, but it would make good head canon" is the fluff equivalent of "it's not in the rules as written, but it would make a good house rule".

[Colonelkillabee]

That's actually common of most religions.

 

Look at the chantry. The maker makes the fade, is disatisfied, makes the world. The world isn't perfect so he says ****** off, have some darkspawn. Now only if people grovel enough will he do anything. The chantry paints this as him being merciful when it's really the actions of a petty vindictive incompetent dumdum. He punishes his creations for mistakes only a few of them made.

 

Or look at real world religions. Hebrew mythology has Yahweh harden the pharao's heart so he won't let the hebrews go...even after the plagues worked. He did this so she could show off his power. Not only could he have done that anyway (red sea anyone?) without killing anybody, he could have changed the pharaoh's mind at any time. Yet he is presented as a good guy.

 

A couple other mythologies have a deity who is supposed to be all loving but will brutally torture you forever for not loving him enough. This is presented as a good thing. Jehova's whitnesses believe that only 144 000 people get into heaven, and the rest of the faithful live on a perfected earth...which begs the question as to why god doens't just perfect the earth RIGHT now. That would win more converts than going door to door.

 

Then there's the infamous bit with the mormon's and the two golden plates read out of a seerstone. T outsider's it seems like the story itself demonstrates joseph smith was a con man. To mormons it proves he was honest.

 

All the big religions take their weaknesses and try to trun them to strengths. Those that don't tend not to last. The religions of thedas are no different.

ROFL I love the way you put this. And you're exactly right. My father still gets tongue tied when I tell him God needed Jesus to interact with man because God was too much of a dick, hence the new testament. The Maker was a douche and got Andraste. Difference is, he just said **** it and left, rather than promising salvation.

 

Honestly, I can't blame him too much. Assuming I actually believed this tale.

[Dean_the_Young]

I've just realized that "it's not in the lore, but it would make good head canon" is the fluff equivalent of "it's not in the rules as written, but it would make a good house rule".

 

Totally how it was intended. Headcanon is perfectly fine... so long as it's not confused for or treated as canon. (For the record, I don't think Addai was.)

[herkles]

Question, more for  Roamingmachine and others with knowledge of the dalish faith, did the dalish ever make their gods and goddess out to be all good and loving? 

[Addai]

Read the second part of the codex that you omitted. I can't post it because I'm on my phone. The process of meditation - and what they're meditating on - sets out their veneration of the past. The fact that they tie it to the worship of an old elven god - the fact that each tatoo is that same ancient symbol, and the fact that each is chosen for its perceived meaning to that god - is so painfully and obviously a reclamation of the past that any other conclusion is just willful blindness.

A chest thumping rant in a codex entry does not change the actual role of the tattoo. The purpose isn't to show off that they're really racist against other elves, as that codex entry says.

Here's the rest of the codex entry, for the sake of complete information.

"The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. When the time comes, the keeper of the clan applies the blood writing. This is done in complete silence. Cries of pain are signs of weakness. If one cannot tolerate the pain of the blood writing, they are not ready to undertake the responsibilities of an adult. The keeper may stop the ritual if they decide that the one gaining the vallaslin is not ready. There is no shame in this, for all children are different, and our ancestors once took centuries to come of age.

--As told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves. "

It doesn't claim to be re-enacting anything from Arlathan. And so what if it did, anyway? Let us not forget that one reason the Dalish got so much wrong is not that they're simply stubborn fools, but because Tevinter assiduously worked to erase or subvert to their own purposes every vestige of elven culture they could get their hands on.

[Colonelkillabee]

Question, more for  Roamingmachine and others with knowledge of the dalish faith, did the dalish ever make their gods and goddess out to be all good and loving? 

Not Fen'Harel and the forgotten ones.

 

There's other examples, but that's the easiest.

[Addai]

Question, more for  Roamingmachine and others with knowledge of the dalish faith, did the dalish ever make their gods and goddess out to be all good and loving?

No. You can read the codex entries. They paint the gods as fickle, fighting with and tricking each other, occasionally vengeful and cruel. The people commenting on these threads take bits of dialogue and run with them as if they're true.

 

I gather it's also a foreign concept that you can consider a god or powerful ancestor to be flawed and yet still revere them. Abelas speaks of Mythal with reverence and also bitterness.