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[Reznore57]

Question, more for  Roamingmachine and others with knowledge of the dalish faith, did the dalish ever make their gods and goddess out to be all good and loving? 

 

Not exactly IMHO.

Elgar nan has clear anger issues even in Dalish tales.(and god of vengeance doesn't sound very loving)

Merrill in DA2 warns you to "never anger Mythal" .

Also well the Dread Wolf is also seen as a trickster.

Even if he's not seen as good for the Dalish , they didn't stripped him of his God status.

 

The main difference is the Dalish have no tales of their creators killing their People because they feel like it.

[herkles]

TBH compared to some real world faiths, the amount of knowledge the dalish have retained after all these years of it trying to be wiped out is remarkable. When one looks at some real world pre-christian and pre-islamic faiths and then compare it to the Dalish, the dalish have retained far more then some of our own faiths.

[Roamingmachine]

Question, more for  Roamingmachine and others with knowledge of the dalish faith, did the dalish ever make their gods and goddess out to be all good and loving?

They are basically shown as archetypes of their domain. The goddess of the hunt is what you'd expect, the god of vengeance is wrathful etc. Positive but also vague is how I would describe the Dalish tales of the gods.

[Dean_the_Young]

The main difference is the Dalish have no tales of their creators killing their People because they feel like it.

 

Or, more relevantly, elf-on-elf slavery in the name of the gods. The Dalish have a healthy fear of their gods (Dread Wolf in particular), but none had any notion that in the mythic time that gods walked amongst the People, it was because the Gods owned the People.

[Addai]

Even the history of the fall of the Dales isn't entirely wrong. Sarel tells you that the humans promised them the Dales as reward for aiding Andraste's rebellion but then wouldn't leave them alone because they followed other gods. In the Emerald Graves there's a memorial tree codex that talks about the Orlesians sending "templars and missionaries" into the Dales. Even if some of those were peaceful, the fact that they sent templars must have made even innocent Andrastian incursions seem threatening. That's the background of the Red Crossing tragedy, which the anti-elven chuckleheads around here like to trumpet as the elves whitewashing their own perfidy.

[Roamingmachine]

Even the history of the fall of the Dales isn't entirely wrong. Sarel tells you that the humans promised them the Dales as reward for aiding Andraste's rebellion but then wouldn't leave them alone because they followed other gods. In the Emerald Graves there's a memorial tree codex that talks about the Orlesians sending "templars and missionaries" into the Dales. Even if some of those were peaceful, the fact that they sent templars must have made even innocent Andrastian incursions seem threatening. That's the background of the Red Crossing tragedy, which the anti-elven chuckleheads around here like to trumpet as the elves whitewashing their own perfidy.

The "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" sign on the border of the Dales was apparently too subtle a hint for the Orlesians and chantry people

[Dean_the_Young]

Even the history of the fall of the Dales isn't entirely wrong. Sarel tells you that the humans promised them the Dales as reward for aiding Andraste's rebellion but then wouldn't leave them alone because they followed other gods. In the Emerald Graves there's a memorial tree codex that talks about the Orlesians sending "templars and missionaries" into the Dales. Even if some of those were peaceful, the fact that they sent templars must have made even innocent Andrastian incursions seem threatening. That's the background of the Red Crossing tragedy, which the anti-elven chuckleheads around here like to trumpet as the elves whitewashing their own perfidy.

There's nothing that puts those statues at pre-Red Crossing background, though.

 

It's the same issue that the Dales codex has: no mention of Red Crossing, or the Exalted March, or any other distinction between 'Templars' and 'armed human soldiers' in general.

[Mistic]

There's nothing that puts those statues at pre-Red Crossing background, though.

 

It's the same issue that the Dales codex has: no mention of Red Crossing, or the Exalted March, or any other distinction between 'Templars' and 'armed human soldiers' in general.

 

True enough, but it's from the same age and supporters of the "Templar bodyguards" interpretation can use it as another possible source, while critics can only cast some doubt over the date. Especially since the context of the graves clearly can't put them after the Exalted March, so it must be contemporary of the war at the latest.

 

But why discuss this? DA:I has shown us that the famous Red Crossing incident was caused by a stupid misunderstanding fed by border tension between the Dales and Orlais. Border tension that seemed to be sadly common and to happen as soon as humans or elves were caught by trigger-happy guards on the wrong side of the frontier. No other excuses necessary. No secret conspiracies to extend the Chant of Light or to conquer lands for the glorious Aldmeri Domin... er, the Dales. Neither the elves launched a preemptive strike in a campaign to attack Orlais, nor Red Crossing was a secret Templar base or the target of a false flag operation to cause a war. It was just Romeo and Juliet all over again.

[dragonflight288]

Imho they still remains as marks of slavery, the dalish really dont know the meaning of their symbol, the vallaslin are not just beautiful body tattoos, they represent a magical bound to a certain elven deity, they were used as mark to identify the salves bounded to their master maybe with some kind of ancient magic.Look at the well of sorrow, the power of Mythal force whoever drink from the well to be a slave or even worse a puppet, even Abelas one who is loyal to her goddess, consider this bound unworthy.Truth it's a beginning and now the Dalish can start to remove this practice instead to enjoy their proud little cult

i believe that is better late then never.

 

 

You see the Valleslin, as it's practiced now, as still a sign of slavery?

 

Would you care to point out the slavery in being Keeper, First, a Hunter, a hahren? 

[Helios969]

I believe the woman in the well is young Flemeth, Mythal's avatar.

 

There are a couple dialogues about the missing vallaslin. A banter with Cassandra and Solas and one with Cole and Solas, and a little conversation with Josephine and Inquisitor. And it puts Sera in stitches.

You might be right about Flemeth...Still it doesn't quite compute in my brain.  Before this most recent playthrough I thought I had a good bead on where DA was going with the mythology and the ancient Elven gods being powerful shapechanging mages.  Now I am less certain.  Maybe the "old gods" were more than that interpretation...perhaps not Elven in origin.  Elves (and other races) slaves to these "deities."

 

Another curiosity I found was being called a Shemlen by Abelas as an Elf.  Shemlen meaning slave perhaps?

[Lulupab]

Another curiosity I found was being called a Shemlen by Abelas as an Elf.  Shemlen meaning slave perhaps?

 

That could be a bug, he only does that once as far as I know and only when we reach the well. I mean don't get me wrong, he mocks the elven inquisitor as pretender to be "elvhen" but he calls human inquisitor shemlen a few times starting from the first time we meet him.

 

The game was meant to have human only protagonist for a while anyway so it could be a lingering dialogue.

[dragonflight288]

You might be right about Flemeth...Still it doesn't quite compute in my brain.  Before this most recent playthrough I thought I had a good bead on where DA was going with the mythology and the ancient Elven gods being powerful shapechanging mages.  Now I am less certain.  Maybe the "old gods" were more than that interpretation...perhaps not Elven in origin.  Elves (and other races) slaves to these "deities."

 

Another curiosity I found was being called a Shemlen by Abelas as an Elf.  Shemlen meaning slave perhaps?

 

Shemlen means "quick-child." A dalish who isn't a long-lived as Abelas in that sense would be a shemlan. 

[Lulupab]

Shemlen means "quick-child." A dalish who isn't a long-lived as Abelas in that sense would be a shemlan. 

 

This also makes sense.

[Helios969]

^Didn't know that.  I won't feel very insulted when elves call my human PC Shem anymore.

[TheJediSaint]

 

You see the Valleslin, as it's practiced now, as still a sign of slavery?

 

Would you care to point out the slavery in being Keeper, First, a Hunter, a hahren? 

There's been some speculation that Keeper may have originally meant, "Keeper of Slaves."  I.E. Overseers.

[Helios969]

There's been some speculation that Keeper may have originally meant they were "Keeper of Slaves."  I.E. Overseers.

Interesting.  I could buy that given what we've learned.

[Steelcan]

The "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" sign on the border of the Dales was apparently too subtle a hint for the Orlesians and chantry people

"those who live in Red Crossing will be shot, survivors shot again, then we invade the whole gorram country"

[TheJediSaint]

"those who live in Red Crossing will be shot, survivors shot again, then we invade the whole gorram country"

Stupid sexy humans.

[Steelcan]

Interesting.  I could buy that given what we've learned.

honestly given how emphatically DA:I lays the smack down on Dalish I wouldn't be surprised if we find out they are also cannibals who practice human sacrifice

[Helios969]

honestly given how emphatically DA:I lays the smack down on Dalish I wouldn't be surprised if we find out they are also cannibals who practice human sacrifice

 

Dalish are just central because of the historical significance, but really DAI "smacks down" cherished beliefs across the board.  Chantry? Smack down.  Seekers? Smack Down.  Templars and mage orders?  Smack down.  Tevinter and all their magnificient pride of crushing the Elven empire of old?  Smack down.  I think the central theme players should take away from Inquisition is that instead of pining for what once was and all that lost "glory," look at the state of the world as it is today and figure out how to make it better.  Look at all the institutions across Thedas.  Tevinter wants to restore their former greatness.  The elves want to recover their lost history (careful what you wish for;)  Orlais a return to glorious expansion.  Dwarves (probably) want to recover their lost Thaigs.  Chantry in the not so distant future will want to restore the power they held before the sky was torn.  Is there anybody not sitting around talking about how great it was for everyone yesterday?  When the truth is it was probably only great for the elite few who held power of the powerless majority.

[Br3admax]

^Didn't know that.  I won't feel very insulted when elves call my human PC Shem anymore.

They won't ever refer to themselves as that, and it's taken on a derogatory connotation. Abelas saying something is one thing, a bunch of hasbeens in the woods is another. 

[TheJediSaint]

Few things are more fun than knocking stuff off of pedestals.

[Br3admax]

Dalish are just central because of the historical significance, but really DAI "smacks down" cherished beliefs across the board.  Chantry? Smack down.  Seekers? Smack Down.  Templars and mage orders?  Smack down.  Tevinter and all their magnificient pride of crushing the Elven empire of old?  Smack down.  I think the central theme players should take away from Inquisition is that instead of pining for what once was and all that lost "glory," look at the state of the world as it is today and figure out how to make it better.  Look at all the institutions across Thedas.  Tevinter wants to restore their former greatness.  The elves want to recover their lost history (careful what you wish for;)  Orlais a return to glorious expansion.  Dwarves (probably) want to recover their lost Thaigs.  Chantry in the not so distant future will want to restore the power they held before the sky was torn.  Is their anybody not sitting around talking about how great it was for everyone yesterday?  When the truth is it was probably only great for the elite few who held power of the powerless majority.

An organization getting hit with slander is not comparable to being told your entire history is a lie. No one else has had to deal with anything on the level that the ancient elves and the Dalish have. The only thing comparable is the Blight, and that was already known. 

[Helios969]

Br3admax:  The only thing I can say in response is the story is far from over.  I suspect we're going to learn everyone has it all (or mostly) wrong.  And again the point is don't be the old person talking about how great things used to be...whether you're elven or Fereldan.

[In Exile]

The process sets out their veneration of their gods and THEIR CULTURE. "On the ways of our people" is the exact wording. Nothing about the past said once again. You are simply making stuff up now. That, combined with the bolded part of your post tells me enough. We're done. Buh-bye.

Their culture not being "Dalish" culture (which doesn't exist except as defined in relation to the old Dales and the "Elvhen" of Arlathan) but rather their idealisation of their former culture which they think they've rediscovered the broad contours of rather than misconstrued entirely. You can be in denial about it if you like.