Assuming the gate world it led to wasn't in the ****ing totem.
It's still very plausible.
What do you mean? All the Eluvians connect to the Crossroads. That statue...is a statue. The demon was bound to it during the fighting that took place on Sundermount.
I'm perfectly fine not blaming Merrill for the actions of other grown men and women. If Marethari fell prey to Audacity's machinations, then I'm going to blame Marethari for ultimately setting Audacity loose in the most asinine manner imaginable. Marethari is responsible for her own actions.
Merrill never encounters or meddles with Audacity= Marethari never freaks out and becomes an abomination.
Nomatter how you spin it, Merrill's decision is the cause of this. Doesn't make Merrill a bad character overall, any more than what Anders eventually does.
Merrill''s actions precipitated what Marethari did. There's no escaping that.
But then I wonder: how long ago did Marethari make herself a demon vessel? It had to be some time before Hawke and Merrill returned to Sundermount to check out the demon prison, and if that's the case, what if Merrill and Hawke simply never came back? What if Hawke said no and Merrill never bothered to go back out of fear of what might happen? Is Marethari now just lingering about, secretly containing Audacity?
I guess Marethari was between a rock and a hard place, and probably hoped for Merrill to return so she and/or Hawke could kill her, since she couldn't do it herself.
But then I wonder: how long ago did Marethari make herself a demon vessel? It had to be some time before Hawke and Merrill returned to Sundermount to check out the demon prison, and if that's the case, what if Merrill and Hawke simply never came back? What if Hawke said no and Merrill never bothered to go back out of fear of what might happen? Is Marethari now just lingering about, secretly containing Audacity?
That's what interests me also. She clearly was pretty powerful to be able to contain a daemon without it completely assuming control of her until plot device of course.
What do you mean? All the Eluvians connect to the Crossroads. That statue...is a statue. The demon was bound to it during the fighting that took place on Sundermount.
What do you mean? All the Eluvians connect to the Crossroads. That statue...is a statue. The demon was bound to it during the fighting that took place on Sundermount.
The demon was trying to con her into making a deal by acting like he knows the Eluvians
Yeah, the demon was definitely still dangerous. I just don't believe that the Eluvian was a gateway to releasing him. At the time, DA2 made the mirror seem very ominous combined with what Marethari said about it. In the end, the demon still ultimately got what it wanted- a body to possess.
As far as Inquisition and TME shows, Merrill was the one in the right here in my opinion.
I see no reason to think someone who ends up possessed and changes their reasons for opposing something seemingly out of the blue as a credible source of information on how to not get possessed by the object she changed her opinion on.
As far as Inquisition and TME shows, Merrill was the one in the right here in my opinion.
I see no reason to think someone who ends up possessed and changes their reasons for opposing something seemingly out of the blue as a credible source of information on how to not get possessed by the object she changed her opinion on.
As for the Eluvian, I see little reason why Merrill should abide by rivalry Hawke's complete ignorance of her people, culture, religion, and the technology of her ancestors when she's the one who has studied the lore and gathered additional information from the shard. It came across like some really bad trope.
I've never figured out why you're so down on Hawke for this, when they really make quite a reasonable decision given the circumstances. The student/subordinate/child wants something, the teacher/superior/parent says it's a terrible idea, and a neutral third party has to decide? Why wouldn't the neutral third party weigh in on the side of the teacher/superior/parent? Particularly when the entire family unit agrees?
Also, I'm pretty sure you can be true blue with Merrill and still tell her you won't give her the tool. You get rivalry points, but I don't think you have to be rivaling her to get the option.
Merrill never encounters or meddles with Audacity= Marethari never freaks out and becomes an abomination.
Nomatter how you spin it, Merrill's decision is the cause of this. Doesn't make Merrill a bad character overall, any more than what Anders eventually does.
Merrill was right about the mirror but incredibly wrong in how she went about it. Which is the point of her arc - her pride in thinking that she mattered.
Pride on her part, pride on Merethari's part, pride on the part of her clan, and pride on a rival Hawke who thinks he knows what's better for Merrill despite knowing nothing of the eluvian itself.
Pride is relevant in the entire arch and I won't deny this, but I see Merethari far more in the wrong than Merrill.
Once Merrill willingly left the clan, any and all responsibility to Merrill on the part of Merethari is now gone. Merethari's responsibility as Keeper would be to train up a new First to be her heir, see to the needs of the clan and ensure their safety near one of the largest templar strongholds in the White Chantry lands.
Considering said templars threaten the Dalish in Act 3 to convert, have one of their young tortured with fire, and by act 3, if you listen to the banter in he camp, some elves are even thinking of deserting the clan to seek another, I'd say Merethari is a failure in nearly all aspects of her duty.
Merrill did try to go through the proper channels. In Origins, we learn she knows some of the magic that Merethari uses on a Dalish Warden that held off the taint, and that magic was not amplified with lyrium or blood magic. Merrill took a single shard of the broken eluvian and asked Merethari to help her cleanse it and pool their magic. When Merethari refused Merrill learned blood magic to amplify the magic she already knew, and she outright admits that if she had access to lyrium she would've used that instead.
The devs have confirmed that Merrill did research on the eluvians and extrapolated all the knowledge she could from that shard and any lore she could get her hands on. Her eluvian is one she's building from scratch. Her eluvian is not the same as the one that was tainted by darkspawn in the Brecilian forest. And since she had the shard for a decade an never got herself or anyone tainted, I'd say she was successful in her endeavors.
She's proud, I won't deny that. There's a reason the Pride Demon in Feynriel's dream will target her above all other party members (Merrill, Fenris, then Varric, each betray's Hawke and then apologize for it later, whereas Aveline and Isabella will fall prey to the Desire Demon.) It is simply my opinion that Merrill is more in the right than Merethari, and I see Merethari as kind of a failure on all aspects of what being a dalish is supposed to mean, save teaching the city elves what was forgotten based on taking in Pol and how the City Elves treated her when she arrived.
I've never figured out why you're so down on Hawke for this, when they really make quite a reasonable decision given the circumstances. The student/subordinate/child wants something, the teacher/superior/parent says it's a terrible idea, and a neutral third party has to decide? Why wouldn't the neutral third party weigh in on the side of the teacher/superior/parent? Particularly when the entire family unit agrees?
Also, I'm pretty sure you can be true blue with Merrill and still tell her you won't give her the tool. You get rivalry points, but I don't think you have to be rivaling her to get the option.
Because the neutral party is completely ignorant of dalish culture and knows nothing of their ancient artifacts, perhaps.
I've never figured out why you're so down on Hawke for this, when they really make quite a reasonable decision given the circumstances. The student/subordinate/child wants something, the teacher/superior/parent says it's a terrible idea, and a neutral third party has to decide? Why wouldn't the neutral third party weigh in on the side of the teacher/superior/parent? Particularly when the entire family unit agrees?
Also, I'm pretty sure you can be true blue with Merrill and still tell her you won't give her the tool. You get rivalry points, but I don't think you have to be rivaling her to get the option.
Because the neutral party is completely ignorant of dalish culture and knows nothing of their ancient artifacts, perhaps.
Pride on her part, pride on Merethari's part, pride on the part of her clan, and pride on a rival Hawke who thinks he knows what's better for Merrill despite knowing nothing of the eluvian itself.
Pride is relevant in the entire arch and I won't deny this, but I see Merethari far more in the wrong than Merrill.
Once Merrill willingly left the clan, any and all responsibility to Merrill on the part of Merethari is now gone. Merethari's responsibility as Keeper would be to train up a new First to be her heir, see to the needs of the clan and ensure their safety near one of the largest templar strongholds in the White Chantry lands.
Considering said templars threaten the Dalish in Act 3 to convert, have one of their young tortured with fire, and by act 3, if you listen to the banter in he camp, some elves are even thinking of deserting the clan to seek another, I'd say Merethari is a failure in nearly all aspects of her duty.
Merrill did try to go through the proper channels. In Origins, we learn she knows some of the magic that Merethari uses on a Dalish Warden that held off the taint, and that magic was not amplified with lyrium or blood magic. Merrill took a single shard of the broken eluvian and asked Merethari to help her cleanse it and pool their magic. When Merethari refused Merrill learned blood magic to amplify the magic she already knew, and she outright admits that if she had access to lyrium she would've used that instead.
The devs have confirmed that Merrill did research on the eluvians and extrapolated all the knowledge she could from that shard and any lore she could get her hands on. Her eluvian is one she's building from scratch. Her eluvian is not the same as the one that was tainted by darkspawn in the Brecilian forest. And since she had the shard for a decade an never got herself or anyone tainted, I'd say she was successful in her endeavors.
She's proud, I won't deny that. There's a reason the Pride Demon in Feynriel's dream will target her above all other party members (Merrill, Fenris, then Varric, each betray's Hawke and then apologize for it later, whereas Aveline and Isabella will fall prey to the Desire Demon.) It is simply my opinion that Merrill is more in the right than Merethari, and I see Merethari as kind of a failure on all aspects of what being a dalish is supposed to mean, save teaching the city elves what was forgotten based on taking in Pol and how the City Elves treated her when she arrived.
Because the neutral party is completely ignorant of dalish culture and knows nothing of their ancient artifacts, perhaps.
That's why I don't get the hate for Hawke here. They had no knowledge of the matter at hand, so who are they supposed to trust? The student or the teacher? It seems more than reasonable to me to assume that the teacher has more knowledge and experience regarding both the dangers of the undertaking and the limitations of the student.
It also seems much more respectful to the Dalish in general to defer to the Keeper rather than the exiled former First.
The idea that Hawke doesn't have a moral stake or say is insane. Merrill's gameplan is to force Hawke to execute her in cold blood if something goes wrong. That's a perverse thing to inflict on her friend. It's almost as sick as what Anders does with you when he dupes you. She brings a potentially dangerous magical artefact into Hawke's city and asks Hawke, on faith, to accept she knows what she's doing with it. And all throughout the thing she's asking for your help with all of this.
Merrill is at the point where she can't appeal to her culture when she pushes all of this onto Hawke. That Hawke is a belligerent ass about it as a rival doesn't change things.
At the point I'm discussing, Merrill's absurd request about killing her hasn't happened. I'm talking about her request for the wood carving knife, and Hawke's ability to basically say "No, you can't have the knife, Merethari says you'll put your eye out."
Because the neutral party is completely ignorant of dalish culture and knows nothing of their ancient artifacts, perhaps.
That's all irrelevant. We're not talking about an archeological dig here. The mirror was dangerous. Merrill asks you to trust her - offering nothing - that it won't do it again. She makes a deal with a demon and asks you - again offering no real assurance - to trust her. And when it comes to building it, she asks to trust you she knows what she's doing with it.
When you inflicit so much potential danger on others, you don't get to claim the moral high ground. Merrill doesn't get a special claim to knowledge about the Dalish, especially when Marethari says the opposite.
And where is the proof that the mirror is actually dangerous beyond the darkspawn taint, which was cured, and we all know that is dangerous and that darkspawn corrupt everything they come in contact with.
If Merethari is going to tell me that the mirror is dangerous, I'm going to want more proof than "because I fear the taint will come back from a cleansed shard that is infecting no one" in Act 2 and "It's a portal to a statue that holds a bound demon" in Act 3, which turns out to be completely false because the mirror shows up in the Crossroads in Inquisition.
All this shows is that the mirror is not actually dangerous and Merethari was wrong. Both were too proud to work past their issues with the other, and pride is the big theme of the arch.
Merrill is a dupe. She's - to me - at fault because she hinges her entire plan on things she knows she's terrible at doing. The fact that she leaves doesn't absolve her - it makes her responsible for all of the things causes by her leaving.
That's not to say who's more blameworthy - that'd be a pointless argument about who you like more as a character.
My problem is just with people absolving Merrill because she left. I disagree. That is by far the most blameworthy thing that she does in DA2.
So you're saying that because Merrill decided to leave the clan, and is not the first Dalish to choose to do this and was allowed to leave by her clan, she is therein responsible for all the bad things that happened to the clan in the years that followed? I'm sure this is not what you're meaning to say but it is how it's coming across.
If it is what you're saying, then you are also saying that no one is truly responsible for his or her own actions so long as a scapegoat is handy, no matter how many years passed. If it is not what you're saying, then I ask that you clarify your point.
Because the neutral party is completely ignorant of dalish culture and knows nothing of their ancient artifacts, perhaps.
That's why I don't get the hate for Hawke here. They had no knowledge of the matter at hand, so who are they supposed to trust? The student or the teacher? It seems more than reasonable to me to assume that the teacher has more knowledge and experience regarding both the dangers of the undertaking and the limitations of the student.
It also seems much more respectful to the Dalish in general to defer to the Keeper rather than the exiled former First.
At the point I'm discussing, Merrill's absurd request about killing her hasn't happened. I'm talking about her request for the wood carving knife, and Hawke's ability to basically say "No, you can't have the knife, Merethari says you'll put your eye out."
No, that's not what happened. What happened was Merrill enacted a Dalish rite to temporarily gain possession of an artefact of the clan, Merethari agreed on the condition that Merrill slay a Varterrall that is killing their hunters. Merrill does so and Merethari then proceeds to give the arlunholm to Hawke and asks him not to give it to Merrill.
What I saw was the Keeper trying to get out of a deal. A Hawke who disagrees with building the Mirror can keep it away from Merrill, but that does not change the fact that a dalish rite was performed, Merrill was promised the carving tool, and Merethari tried to go through the motions while also trying to not keep her word on a dalish rite.
I'm sure we can nitpick all day, but Hawke was not actually asked to be an arbiter in the discussion. Merrill simply asked him to come along to be emotional support and that's how the quest starts.
And where is the proof that the mirror is actually dangerous beyond the darkspawn taint, which was cured, and we all know that is dangerous and that darkspawn corrupt everything they come in contact with.
If Merethari is going to tell me that the mirror is dangerous, I'm going to want more proof than "because I fear the taint will come back from a cleansed shard that is infecting no one" in Act 2 and "It's a portal to a statue that holds a bound demon" in Act 3, which turns out to be completely false because the mirror shows up in the Crossroads in Inquisition.
All this shows is that the mirror is not actually dangerous and Merethari was wrong. Both were too proud to work past their issues with the other, and pride is the big theme of the arch.
So you're saying that because Merrill decided to leave the clan, and is not the first Dalish to choose to do this and was allowed to leave by her clan, she is therein responsible for all the bad things that happened to the clan in the years that followed? I'm sure this is not what you're meaning to say but it is how it's coming across.
If it is what you're saying, then you are also saying that no one is truly responsible for his or her own actions so long as a scapegoat is handy, no matter how many years passed. If it is not what you're saying, then I ask that you clarify your point.
No, that's not what happened. What happened was Merrill enacted a Dalish rite to temporarily gain possession of an artefact of the clan, Merethari agreed on the condition that Merrill slay a Varterrall that is killing their hunters. Merrill does so and Merethari then proceeds to give the arlunholm to Hawke and asks him not to give it to Merrill.
What I saw was the Keeper trying to get out of a deal. A Hawke who disagrees with building the Mirror can keep it away from Merrill, but that does not change the fact that a dalish rite was performed, Merrill was promised the carving tool, and Merethari tried to go through the motions while also trying to not keep her word on a dalish rite.
I'm sure we can nitpick all day, but Hawke was not actually asked to be an arbiter in the discussion. Merrill simply asked him to come along to be emotional support and that's how the quest starts.
As far as I could tell, by agreeing to aid Merrill, Hawke had as much right to the knife as she did. They weren't a neutral third party in the performance of the deed, they were an active participant.
So it still comes down to who to defer to in regards to the disposition of the knife. Even if Merrill didn't aske Hawke to be an arbiter in the discussion, Merethari absolutely did.
You're hypocritically applying the burden of proof. The default here isn't "the mirror isn't dangerous". The default is absolute scepticism over all claims in absence of proof.
Merril says it isn't dangerous. So what? What proof does she offer? The fact it isn't currently tainting anyone? That doesn't prove anything when there's no evidence offered as to the mechanism of infection. Merrill tells you nothing and gives you no evidence - same as Marethari.
If Merrill says "it isn't dangerous" we need more proof than it isn't killing anyone. A live landmine or grenade also isn't going to blow anyone up when it's sitting there but that doesn't mean it's not dangerous. The fact that it isn't harming anyone isn't proof that it isn't harmful.
As to the second point, I'm not sure why you feel the need to twist what I said in such an inaccurate fashion. I'll try to explain it better.
Abandoning a group of people doesn't absolve you from responsibility over the fact that you abandoned people. Let me put it like this: if a child runs away from home, and a parent commits suicide because of that, the child is not blameless.
You are responsible for the effect your actions have on others. Abandoning them does not absolve you of the effect your abandonment can have on the metal stage of others.
Burden of proof?
Here's my proof.
Merrill had a shard from an eluvian for over a decade, one that had once been tainted by darkspawn and she said she cleansed by amplifying her magic with blood magic. The fact that she and no one else gets possessed in that decade is proof she succeeded.
The mirror she built was in no way going to get her possessed by Audacity because it is clearly connected to the Crossroads in Inquisition, and the eluvians are used safely by Briala and her agents in TME. Whereas Audacity is bound to the mortal world in a statue, and the crossroads isn't even in the Fade to begin with.
No matter how you slice and dice it, Merrill is in no danger of possession for the reasons Merethari gave after she herself got possessed. And since Merrill never got tainted, Briala and her agents never get tainted, and Morrigan never gets tainted, that is proof that the eluvian would not bring back the Taint as Merethari fears in Act 2.
Merethari is wrong, pure and simple. She didn't do her research on it in Origins. She doesn't do any in DA2, and therefore, it is my argument, based on how wrong she is based on the evidence gathered in the novel and the next game, that she had no clue what she is talking about when it comes to the eluvians.
That is my proof. If you wish to take apart this argument, you will have to deny everything that happens in TME, Witch Hunt, and Inquisition when it comes to eluvians.
As to the second part, I didn't mean to twist what you said, that is actually how it came across to me. Which is also why I said that I was sure that wasn't what you meant and thus asked for clarification.
I get your argument now, I don't agree with it because I hold Merethari to more accountability precisely because she's in a position of power and has a responsibility to her clan and Merrill was allowed to leave after helping Hawke with Flemeth's amulet, but now I understand what you meant.
As far as I could tell, by agreeing to aid Merrill, Hawke had as much right to the knife as she did. They weren't a neutral third party in the performance of the deed, they were an active participant.
So it still comes down to who to defer to in regards to the disposition of the knife. Even if Merrill didn't aske Hawke to be an arbiter in the discussion, Merethari absolutely did.
All Merethari did was ask Hakwe not to give Merrill the knife and gave it to him after promising to give it to Merrill.
Like I said, we can nitpick and disagree on our interpretation of those events, but that is what I saw.
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