Their culture not being "Dalish" culture (which doesn't exist except as defined in relation to the old Dales and the "Elvhen" of Arlathan) but rather their idealisation of their former culture which they think they've rediscovered the broad contours of rather than misconstrued entirely. You can be in denial about it if you like.
uhm, what. The dalish have their own culture and customs. They may be more varied now with the various different clans. But dalish culture definitely exists.
Here's the rest of the codex entry, for the sake of complete information.
"The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. When the time comes, the keeper of the clan applies the blood writing. This is done in complete silence. Cries of pain are signs of weakness. If one cannot tolerate the pain of the blood writing, they are not ready to undertake the responsibilities of an adult. The keeper may stop the ritual if they decide that the one gaining the vallaslin is not ready. There is no shame in this, for all children are different, and our ancestors once took centuries to come of age.
--As told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves. "
It doesn't claim to be re-enacting anything from Arlathan. And so what if it did, anyway? Let us not forget that one reason the Dalish got so much wrong is not that they're simply stubborn fools, but because Tevinter assiduously worked to erase or subvert to their own purposes every vestige of elven culture they could get their hands on.
uhm, what. The dalish have their own culture and customs. They may be more varied now with the various different clans. But dalish culture definitely exists.
It exists, but it's probably not an accurate representation of ancient elven culture.
I read "ways of our people" to be the same kind of reference to the ancestors than the last went nice makes in the passage. It very much reads as reenactment to me.
And there's nothing wrong with reenacting. My issue with the Dalish is their belief in their own infallible grasp of the past. The last sentence of the codex is actually a great example - they say their ancestors took centuries to come of age (clearly a reference to Arlathan) as if it was a known and absolute fact, but its nothing more than their self righteous conviction in their own narrative.
The chantey is equally self righteous, of course. The only difference is that the object of their faith isn't the past and their knowledge of it as it is for the Dalish. Equally obnoxious though.
When do the Dalish ever say they're infallible in their memory of the past? As opposed to saying over and over again "we've lost so much, we can never get it back"??
Even the history of the fall of the Dales isn't entirely wrong. Sarel tells you that the humans promised them the Dales as reward for aiding Andraste's rebellion but then wouldn't leave them alone because they followed other gods. In the Emerald Graves there's a memorial tree codex that talks about the Orlesians sending "templars and missionaries" into the Dales. Even if some of those were peaceful, the fact that they sent templars must have made even innocent Andrastian incursions seem threatening. That's the background of the Red Crossing tragedy, which the anti-elven chuckleheads around here like to trumpet as the elves whitewashing their own perfidy.
New year same debate XD
The One Ring isn't as circular as debates centering around the Dalish.
But then history is wrong. The Dalish (or at least Sarel) paints it as the culmination of a belligerent religious invasion by the Orlais. That's not what happens. It's just a mundane tale of two powers with different cultures crashing up against each other, with tensions building up to a flashpoint event that triggers a war that, at first, is a resounding victory for the Dales. It's much more mundane than the Dalish being victors.
"Both are equally guilty" and "it was the result of political tensions between two regional powers" is pretty different from racist human bigots invading to convert the peaceful elves.
I dunno, why would anyone think that when the markers all over the Dales talk about how the Exalted March is a holy crusade meant to convert the elves or else shove a Sword of Mercy down their gullets? History is written by the victors, and this is what the victors say about it as well. The hounded nomads with no institutions and little written history don't remember events perfectly and are bitter about the entire destruction of their land and way of life... this is shocking?
you sure lolThe One Ring isn't as circular as debates centering around the Dalish.
Because they are lithe pointy eared people who excel at failing.
so anyone change their point of view? who's winning here?
I wonder what DAI writers think of these discussions. maybe popcorn is involved.
Guest_Faerunner_*
Their culture not being "Dalish" culture (which doesn't exist except as defined in relation to the old Dales and the "Elvhen" of Arlathan) but rather their idealisation of their former culture which they think they've rediscovered the broad contours of rather than misconstrued entirely. You can be in denial about it if you like.
Bolded: Oh please, who in Thedas doesn't idealize their former culture? What nation/religion/former empire doesn't look on their own history with rose-colored glasses?
The dwarves of Orzammar look fondly on the time when they were a vast underground empire with Deep Roads and Thaigs that spanned all of Thedas, and obsessively try to keep that old ideal alive by holding fast to ancient traditions even though they're no longer apply, and like to act like they're still proud, superior, powerful bigshots even though they're vastly outnumbered by the other races (1 dwarf for every 100 humans), suffer mass infertility, and have only two known city-kingdoms besieged by darkspawn.
Tevinter is not only no longer the vast empire that holds the whole known world in an iron grip, but they were the ones that screwed Thedas over as badly as it is now. (Bringing darkspawn and all, which was "not us" as Dorian says; killing Anstaste, which they figure was "just a mage" to make themselves feel less guilty, as Dorian says). But they still like to pretend that their loss of most territories in Thedas and their current deadlock with Qunari are just minor setbacks that will soon be overcome and they'll be as grand as they were before the Blights.
And need I go into the Chantry trying to act like non-magic, Maker-worshipping humans are always perfectly sweet, loving, accepting, and reasonable, and that all problems in the world are always the result of mages and elves and heathens, and conveniently censure positive mentions of mages and elves in Andrastian religion and history?
But yeah, sure. Only the Dalish idealize their past, spend lots of time trying to rediscover and reclaim their lost culture and/or former glory, and are the only ones who can sometimes act like obnoxious brats about it. (And of course all Dalish are obnoxious brats without exception. Opinions and attitudes about it don't vary from individual to individual, group to group, clan to clan within Dalish culture the way it does for individual dwarves or Tevinters or Andrastians. All Dalish have one big hive mind of obnoxious past-romantization and obsession.)
despite all the things we've learned im still on the dalish and elf support boat. They got it rough. And i think the devs do "listen" to the anti-dalish, anti-libertarian/mage freedom fans tbhso anyone change their point of view? who's winning here?
I wonder what DAI writers think of these discussions. maybe popcorn is involved.
despite all the things we've learned im still on the dalish and elf support boat. They got it rough. And i think the devs do "listen" to the anti-dalish, anti-libertarian/mage freedom fans tbh
For the most part, people who are anti-Dalish are also pro-Elf.
The dwarves of Orzammar look fondly on the time when they were a vast underground empire with Deep Roads and Thaigs that spanned all of Thedas, and obsessively try to keep that old ideal alive by holding fast to ancient traditions even though they're no longer apply, and like to act like they're still proud, superior, powerful bigshots even though they're vastly outnumbered by the other races (1 dwarf for every 100 humans), suffer mass infertility, and have only two known city-kingdoms besieged by darkspawn.
Tevinter is not only no longer the vast empire that holds the whole known world in an iron grip, but they were the ones that screwed Thedas over as badly as it is now. (Bringing darkspawn and all, which was "not us" as Dorian says; killing Anstaste, which they figure was "just a mage" to make themselves feel less guilty, as Dorian says). But they still like to pretend that their loss of most territories in Thedas and their current deadlock with Qunari are just minor setbacks that will soon be overcome and they'll be as grand as they were before the Blights.
And need I go into the Chantry trying to act like non-magic, Maker-worshipping humans are always perfectly sweet, loving, accepting, and reasonable, and that all problems in the world are always the result of mages and elves and heathens, and conveniently censure positive mentions of mages and elves in Andrastian religion and history?
Behlen seeks to turn it around, he realizes that changes must be made and is making them.
There are mages, many apparently, who have recognized this decline and have sought to rectify it, Dorian being only one example, pre-Venatori Alexius is another.
I'm curious, do you just shut your ears off and write your own dialogue when Mother Giselle is on screen? Where she acknowledges the wrongs that have been done?
Hey people can b*** about the Dalish all they want.
Still the ancient elves build a new world made of the Fade and Thedas probably because they thought roads were for barbarians.
Think about the Tevinter Imperial Highway , one of the greatest achievement in the story of humankind ...lolz.
Anyway mockery aside , it would be good if the humans start to look at the Dalish and also look for ancient elven lore , clearly those dudes knew way more about magic.
If there is a solution for the Blight anywhere , it might be here.
Oh and also dismissing elven lore isn't wise when there's ancient elven gods walking around and they have unknown plan.
FleMythal is responsible for the creation of Ferelden .
Tevinter was entirely build on the carcass of the elven empire.
I mean even the human don't realise how much of their history was shaped by the elves .
Anyway mockery aside , it would be good if the humans start to look at the Dalish and also look for ancient elven lore , clearly those dudes knew way more about magic.
If there is a solution for the Blight anywhere , it might be here.
Oh and also dismissing elven lore isn't wise when there's ancient elven gods walking around and they have unknown plan.
FleMythal is responsible for the creation of Ferelden .
Tevinter was entirely build on the carcass of the elven empire.
I mean even the human don't realise how much of their history was shaped by the elves .
Hell they probably started the Blight if half of the theories are true, the magisters just found it and unleashed it, someone else created it
Not really, Flemeth has been in Ferelden and the area for centuries, but she did not unite the various tribes into Ferelden, that honor belongs to King Calenhad. Tevinter also had magic that the elves didn't, controlling dragons namely. Besides, its more that they picked the bones of an already dead empire than building wholly off of it.
Hell they probably started the Blight if half of the theories are true, the magisters just found it and unleashed it, someone else created it
Not really, Flemeth has been in Ferelden and the area for centuries, but she did not unite the various tribes into Ferelden, that honor belongs to King Calenhad. Tevinter also had magic that the elves didn't, controlling dragons namely. Besides, its more that they picked the bones of an already dead empire than building wholly off of it.
Flemeth empowered Calenhad actually.
He was some kind of peasant before he made a bargain with a witch of the wilds.
Edit :About controlling dragons , a dragon is the guardian of Mythal altar.
So again elves did it first.
There's been some speculation that Keeper may have originally meant, "Keeper of Slaves." I.E. Overseers.
Speculation but no confirmation. And even if it were true, it's not true now. The Keepers of Thedas today are not "Keepers of People" but "Keepers of History and Knowledge."
How things are used now does not reflect on how things may have been used in the past. Or even in the present in some places.
Kind of like the movie "The Gods Must be Crazy" with that indigenous tribe who find a coke bottle and have no idea what its actual use is, and find a whole host of things to use it for, not one of which is its intended use, but they make far more use out of it to the point it becomes their best tool of survival, to the point it nearly drives the tribe apart with infighting over using it because it's the only one they've got.
Good movie. It's funny.
Flemeth empowered Calenhad actually.
He was some kind of peasant before he made a bargain with a witch of the wilds.
she still wasn't the one going around physically uniting them
empowered and "favored" but Calenhad didn't have her leading armies iirc
Dalish seem to only inherit the awful things from there past and non of the "good stuff" for example solas tells us that there tatoo's are slave markings representing Human gods.
uhm, what. The dalish have their own culture and customs. They may be more varied now with the various different clans. But dalish culture definitely exists.
she still wasn't the one going around physically uniting them
empowered and "favored" but Calenhad didn't have her leading armies iirc
Yeah but at this point four of the most popular Ferelden Hero (Calenhad , The Hero of Ferelden , Marric and Loghain) had to deal with FleMythal.
I'm just saying humans in the setting are a very young race , they fail at understanding the story of Thedas , and all the "magical " thing going on.
The Dalish even if they also have information missing /or some stuff they throw aside are at least right about their Gods.They existed.
As much as Andraste existed.
And if you think the humans still haven't figure out Andraste by now , the stories about the elven Gods are even older.
So the Dalish aren't doing so bad at keeping their history.
Whenever they say anything about what they've recovered or believe. They have an infallible belief in what Arlathan was as a society. In what led to its downfall. In what their way of life was like. All of it is treated as religious doctrine - infallible - rather than as history. They plead ignorance but are supremely confident that what little they DO know is right. Just look at Keeper Marethari's arrogance, how she believed she could somehow divine the reason behind the Eluvians going silent.When do the Dalish ever say they're infallible in their memory of the past? As opposed to saying over and over again "we've lost so much, we can never get it back"??
Whenever they say anything about what they've recovered or believe. They have an infallible belief in what Arlathan was as a society. In what led to its downfall. In what their way of life was like. All of it is treated as religious doctrine - infallible - rather than as history. They plead ignorance but are supremely confident that what little they DO know is right. Just look at Keeper Marethari's arrogance, how she believed she could somehow divine the reason behind the Eluvians going silent.
The Dalish don't say "our best archeological records indicate that the old elves of Arlathan had a Society that was principally led by mages, but we can't draw other conclusions about it due to lack of evidence".
It changes from clan to clan, although I won't disagree about Merethari being arrogant.
Especially when there's another clan in the world that has a book all about Eluvians. They can't actually read the book because they can't read elvish, but the lore is there.
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