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Reasons the Dalish have it so wrong


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#151
Steelcan

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I'm just saying humans in the setting are a very young race , they fail at understanding the story of Thedas , and all the "magical " thing going on.

The Dalish even if they also have information missing /or some stuff they throw aside are at least right about their Gods.They existed.

As much as Andraste existed.

And if you think the humans still haven't figure out Andraste by now , the stories about  the elven Gods are even older.

So the Dalish aren't doing so bad at keeping their history.

Humans have been around for millennia on Thedas.  They may be young compared to the quasi immortal ancient elves, but they are hardly newcomers to the scene.

 

Their "gods" might have been little more than exceptionally powerful mages fueled by deal with spirits/demons, Solas tells us that he doesn't believe they were actually divine.

 

They are absolutely atrocious at keeping their history, oral traditions about legends is not history.



#152
herkles

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The Dalish cultural narrative turns entirely on comparison - they define themselves against things. As compare to humans, city elves, the elves of the old Dales, the elves of Arlathan ... they don't recognise something that's uniquely theirs as being *theirs* and deriving from non source other than the modern Dalish.

time to define for you what culture means.

 

M-W dictionary

 

: the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

 

free dictionary

 

a. The arts, beliefs, customs, institutions, and other products of human work and thought considered as a unit, especially with regard to a particular time or social group: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture.

b. These arts, beliefs, and other products considered with respect to a particular subject or mode of expression: musical culture; oral culture.
c. The set of predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize a group or organization: a manager who changed the corporate culture.

 

 

Why bring this up, because the dalish have their own set of beliefs, they have various customs, with each clan having their own take on it. They have their own way to dress, and have various art forms. The dalish have their own culture. It is based on the past or what they know of the past, yes, but they have there own culture.


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#153
LobselVith8

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Whenever they say anything about what they've recovered or believe. They have an infallible belief in what Arlathan was as a society. In what led to its downfall. In what their way of life was like. All of it is treated as religious doctrine - infallible - rather than as history. They plead ignorance but are supremely confident that what little they DO know is right. Just look at Keeper Marethari's arrogance, how she believed she could somehow divine the reason behind the Eluvians going silent.

The Dalish don't say "our best archeological records indicate that the old elves of Arlathan had a Society that was principally led by mages, but we can't draw other conclusions about it due to lack of evidence".

 

That's not the case. Keeper Gisharel's account reads, "You ask what happened to Arlathan? Sadly, we do not know. Even those of us who keep the ancient lore have no record of what truly happened. What we have are accounts of the days before the fall, and a fable of the whims of the gods." Furthermore, the word 'legend' is used when describing the supposed fall of Arlathan, as well as 'whatever the case', which acknowledgeds that this 'legend' could be wrong.

 

Even Merrill pointing out that no one in Clan Sabrae knows who summoned Audacity during the battle between Arlathan elves and Tevinter humans at Sundermount over a millennia ago - despite the prohibition against using magic that involves spirits - would suggest that the Dalish don't presume that the ancient elves were perfect.


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#154
Reznore57

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Humans have been around for millennia on Thedas.  They may be young compared to the quasi immortal ancient elves, but they are hardly newcomers to the scene.

 

Their "gods" might have been little more than exceptionally powerful mages fueled by deal with spirits/demons, Solas tells us that he doesn't believe they were actually divine.

 

They are absolutely atrocious at keeping their history, oral traditions about legends is not history.

 

Oh I'm sure their "Gods" were just really powerful elves if you want to be technical.

But at one point when you've been worshipped for thousand of years , and changed the world a couple of time , you're as good as Divine.

I wouldn't call the Dalish atrocious at keeping their lore , they can hardly afford to build a library anywhere and record stuff.

As long as their clans keeps on , their stories keep on.

And stories changes over time , that's perfectly normal.

Still if you compare Dalish lore with lore found in the temple of Mythal ...they did such a great job it's barely realistic.



#155
Steelcan

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despite the prohibition against using magic that involves spirits

a prohibition that is enforced about as well as blood magic bans in Tevinter


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#156
In Exile

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Bolded: Oh please, who in Thedas doesn't idealize their former culture? What nation/religion/former empire doesn't look on their own history with rose-colored glasses?

The dwarves of Orzammar look fondly on the time when they were a vast underground empire with Deep Roads and Thaigs that spanned all of Thedas, and obsessively try to keep that old ideal alive by holding fast to ancient traditions even though they're no longer apply, and like to act like they're still proud, superior, powerful bigshots even though they're vastly outnumbered by the other races (1 dwarf for every 100 humans), suffer mass infertility, and have only two known city-kingdoms besieged by darkspawn.

Tevinter is not only no longer the vast empire that holds the whole known world in an iron grip, but they were the ones that screwed Thedas over as badly as it is now. (Bringing darkspawn and all, which was "not us" as Dorian says; killing Anstaste, which they figure was "just a mage" to make themselves feel less guilty, as Dorian says). But they still like to pretend that their loss of most territories in Thedas and their current deadlock with Qunari are just minor setbacks that will soon be overcome and they'll be as grand as they were before the Blights.

And need I go into the Chantry trying to act like non-magic, Maker-worshipping humans are always perfectly sweet, loving, accepting, and reasonable, and that all problems in the world are always the result of mages and elves and heathens, and conveniently censure positive mentions of mages and elves in Andrastian religion and history?

But yeah, sure. Only the Dalish idealize their past, spend lots of time trying to rediscover and reclaim their lost culture and/or former glory, and are the only ones who can sometimes act like obnoxious brats about it. (And of course all Dalish are obnoxious brats without exception. Opinions and attitudes about it don't vary from individual to individual, group to group, clan to clan within Dalish culture the way it does for individual dwarves or Tevinters or Andrastians. All Dalish have one big hive mind of obnoxious past-romantization and obsession.)


The Dalish don't idolise their past. They've turned their past into a religion. It's impossible to separate out their history from their faith. That the elves were once immortal is a historical claim - but to the Dalish it is also an absolute tentent of their religious faith. The same applies to their (really racist) ideas about the quickening. It's a historical claim couched in cultural superiority turned into a religious belief. This is far more than just the veneration of the past. Their whole culture is defined by this attitude. It's what it means to be Dalish. And it's what Solas so vehemtly dislikes about them.

The dwarves don't worship they past. They worship their forbearers, but it's an open secret that the Shaperate actively manipulates history. They know it as they don't acknowledge it. It's not religious.

Tevinter is the most cultural in its veneration of the past - they pine away for a past glory that may not exist. But they won't worship themselves or ancient Tevinter.

The Chantry is the most hypocritical of the religions because it not only combines a kind of historical/religious narrative to Andraste but they manipulate it over time in a way that the elves don't. The Chantry clerics are every bit as hypocritical. The only difference between them and the Dalish is that these ideas aren't as central to the Chantry as they are to the Dalish.

You seem to somehow think that calling the Dalish out on their self-righteous hypocrisy means absolving other races of their own faults. It doesn't. But this isn't a thread about comparisons, though apparently it's impossible to avoid the topic if I'm not being absolutely tripping over myself to avoid disparaging the Dalish.

As for the Dalish being pretty uniform in their beliefs - that's what we see in-game. Especially about the stuff they're self righteous about. The Ferledans and Orlesians are different... but their Chantry isn't.

#157
In Exile

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That's not the case. Keeper Gisharel's account reads, "You ask what happened to Arlathan? Sadly, we do not know. Even those of us who keep the ancient lore have no record of what truly happened. What we have are accounts of the days before the fall, and a fable of the whims of the gods." Furthermore, the word 'legend' is used when describing the supposed fall of Arlathan, as well as 'whatever the case', which acknowledgeds that this 'legend' could be wrong.

Even Merrill pointing out that no one in Clan Sabrae knows who summoned Audacity during the battle between Arlathan elves and Tevinter humans at Sundermount over a millennia ago - despite the prohibition against using magic that involves spirits - would suggest that the Dalish don't presume that the ancient elves were perfect.


That's garbage and you know it. The Dalish don't question their supposed immortality. They don't question their narrative that humans (and esp. Tevinter) caused the fall of Arlathan. They don't question the notion that humans were responsible for their loss of immorality. These are all historical claims. They are all taken to be infallibly true. Then we have the elves pinning a way for Arlathan as if it was a utopian society - and note that utopian does NOT mean perfect. This combines with other beliefs self-righteously held as infallible, e.g. that all elves once were mages.

The elves plead ignorance to details that are irrelevant to them - like how Tevinter crushed them, which is what Gisharel's entry addressing.
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#158
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The Dalish cultural narrative turns entirely on comparison - they define themselves against things. As compare to humans, city elves, the elves of the old Dales, the elves of Arlathan ... they don't recognise something that's uniquely theirs as being *theirs* and deriving from non source other than the modern Dalish.

 

And the part about their culture revering magic because the ancient elves revered magic, revere nature because it's said the goddess Andruil taught them to revere nature, revere the hearth and crafting because Sylaise and June taught them to warm themselves by the fire, cook their meals, and craft useful clothes, tools, hunting bows, and the aravels and tents, etc? None of that counts? They do some negative comparing to other cultures (as does every culture in Thedas and real life), but they also have many worldviews and customs that would be there regardless of whether humans or dwarves were doing.

 

Besides, again, you're conveniently ignoring how other cultures also negatively compare other cultures to their own to define themselves.

 

Just look at the Chantry. The Andrastian religion and society is all one huge backlash against Tevinter. "WE don't use slavery like that horrible Tevinter does! (Sure, we keep people in inescapable poverty so they become so desperate for work that they'll take any scut job for slave wages, but it's not really slavery as Tevinter once enslaved us.)" "WE don't use magic to enslave people like that awful Tevinter. Our Chant of Light preaches 'Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him' and we'll repeat it and Tevinter's past atrocities using magic (like creating darkspawn, executing Andraste, etc) no less than fifty times a day to remind everyone that WE are not like that horrible Tevinter!" "WE only worship One God (and revere the Bride of the Maker), not like those other heathen religions like Tevinter's Old Gods, the elves' silent, ancient gods, the dwarves' Stone, etc. We don't pray to false gods like THEM!"

 

Everything you use to condemn the Dalish could easily be applied to any other culture in Thedas, yet I don't see you filling up their threads with hate and condemnation.


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#159
herkles

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so In Exile: the dalish are stupid heads who despite being oprressed for all those centuries, they are ignorant because they look to go to a time before they were oprressed and they couldn't keep perfect records.  Also they are a hive mind all thinking the same thought, as there is no such thing as a dalish with different views or opinions. The vallaslin marks them in a way to enforce a single thought.

everyone knows what the other is thinking because they are the same, also they are all flawed, and have nothing good about them, and are all evil racist monsters. 



#160
LobselVith8

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That's garbage and you know it. The Dalish don't question their supposed immortality. They don't question their narrative that humans (and esp. Tevinter) caused the fall of Arlathan. They don't question the notion that humans were responsible for their loss of immorality. These are all historical claims. They are all taken to be infallibly true. Then we have the elves pinning a way for Arlathan as if it was a utopian society - and note that utopian does NOT mean perfect. This combines with other beliefs self-righteously held as infallible, e.g. that all elves once were mages.

The elves plead ignorance to details that are irrelevant to them - like how Tevinter crushed them, which is what Gisharel's entry addressing.

 

It's hardly garbage when the codex entry itself addresses that the tale about the fall of Arlathan is a 'legend', and doesn't treat it as irrefutable fact as you claimed in your previous post.

 

In terms of elven immortality, which is a separate issue from the downfall of Arlathan, we have Solas confirm that the Dalish aren't wrong on that account, and he makes reference to ancient elves wielding magic as well.


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#161
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so In Exile: the dalish are stupid heads who despite being oprressed for all those centuries, they are ignorant because they look to go to a time before they were oprressed and they couldn't keep perfect records. Also they are a hive mind all thinking the same thought, as there is no such thing as a dalish with different views or opinions. The vallaslin marks them in a way to enforce a single thought.
everyone knows what the other is thinking because they are the same, also they are all flawed, and have nothing good about them, and are all evil racist monsters.


I don't know what this patronising garbage is meant to do other than build up a strawman and let you smugly thump your chest.
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#162
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It's hardly garbage when the codex entry itself addresses that the tale about the fall of Arlathan is a 'legend', and doesn't treat it as irrefutable fact as you claimed in your previous post.

In terms of elven immortality, which is a separate issue from the downfall of Arlathan, we have Solas confirm that the Dalish aren't wrong on that account, and he makes reference to ancient elves wielding magic as well.


It doesn't matter what Solas says. It doesn't matter if it's objectively true. It matters that the Dalish self-righteously believe it's an absolute fact without one iota of proof.

Are you *honestly* arguing right now that the Dalish don't believe Tevinter was responsible for the fall of Arlathan and they consider an elven civil war an equally plausible theory? Because that's ridiculous.
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#163
herkles

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It's hardly garbage when the codex entry itself addresses that the tale about the fall of Arlathan is a 'legend', and doesn't treat it as irrefutable fact as you claimed in your previous post.

 

In terms of elven immortality, which is a separate issue from the downfall of Arlathan, we have Solas confirm that the Dalish aren't wrong on that account, and he makes reference to ancient elves wielding magic as well.

 

considering that the abalas refers to sleeping and awakening, and he is able to walk around in the present. I am going to say that he kind of backs up their claim of immortality, or at least how the dalish view it since they also state that at some point the ancient elves would enter the unwakable sleep as their equivelent of dying. turns out here they were right. 



#164
Steelcan

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And the part about their culture revering magic because the ancient elves revered magic, revere nature because it's said the goddess Andruil taught them to revere nature, revere the hearth and crafting because Sylaise and June taught them to warm themselves by the fire, cook their meals, and craft useful clothes, tools, hunting bows, and the aravels and tents, etc? None of that counts? They do some negative comparing to other cultures (as does every culture in Thedas and real life), but they also have many worldviews and customs that would be there regardless of whether humans or dwarves were doing.

 

Besides, again, you're conveniently ignoring how other cultures also negatively compare other cultures to their own to define themselves.

 

Just look at the Chantry. The Andrastian religion and society is all one huge backlash against Tevinter. "WE don't use slavery like that horrible Tevinter does! (Sure, we keep people in inescapable poverty so they become so desperate for work that they'll take any scut job for slave wages, but it's not really slavery as Tevinter once enslaved us.)" "WE don't use magic to enslave people like that awful Tevinter. Our Chant of Light preaches 'Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him' and we'll repeat it and Tevinter's past atrocities using magic (like creating darkspawn, executing Andraste, etc) no less than fifty times a day to remind everyone that WE are not like that horrible Tevinter!" "WE only worship One God (and revere the Bride of the Maker), not like those other heathen religions like Tevinter's Old Gods, the elves' silent, ancient gods, the dwarves' Stone, etc. We don't pray to false gods like THEM!"

 

Everything you use to condemn the Dalish could easily be applied to any other culture in Thedas, yet I don't see you filling up their threads with hate and condemnation.

Because it boils down to the Dalish self superiority and smugness

 

the Chantry is rife with dissidents who rightly call it out on its bullsh*t

 

but the Dalish go around acting like they are the rightful owners of all Thedas because they can parrot a few words and paint themselves like slaves


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#165
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And the part about their culture revering magic because the ancient elves revered magic, revere nature because it's said the goddess Andruil taught them to revere nature, revere the hearth and crafting because Sylaise and June taught them to warm themselves by the fire, cook their meals, and craft useful clothes, tools, hunting bows, and the aravels and tents, etc? None of that counts? They do some negative comparing to other cultures (as does every culture in Thedas and real life), but they also have many worldviews and customs that would be there regardless of whether humans or dwarves were doing.

Besides, again, you're conveniently ignoring how other cultures also negatively compare other cultures to their own to define themselves.

Just look at the Chantry. The Andrastian religion and society is all one huge backlash against Tevinter. "WE don't use slavery like that horrible Tevinter does! (Sure, we keep people in inescapable poverty so they become so desperate for work that they'll take any scut job for slave wages, but it's not really slavery as Tevinter once enslaved us.)" "WE don't use magic to enslave people like that awful Tevinter. Our Chant of Light preaches 'Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him' and we'll repeat it and Tevinter's past atrocities using magic (like creating darkspawn, executing Andraste, etc) no less than fifty times a day to remind everyone that WE are not like that horrible Tevinter!" "WE only worship One God (and revere the Bride of the Maker), not like those other heathen religions like Tevinter's Old Gods, the elves' silent, ancient gods, the dwarves' Stone, etc. We don't pray to false gods like THEM!"

Everything you use to condemn the Dalish could easily be applied to any other culture in Thedas, yet I don't see you filling up their threads with hate and condemnation.


I've *condemned those cultures in the very post that you're quoting*. There are no threads on "Why is the Chantry comically wrong about the existence of their Maker?" but if there was one, and if anyone actually bothered to defend the Chantry views (which never happens) you'd see me calling them out. You're quoting a post where I've called the Chantry the most hypocritical religion in Thedas.

I'm not ignoring anything. I get that it ruffles your feathers that I'm not venerating the Dalish, but at least address the point I've made. Don't invent a position I haven't taken so you can lob insults at me.

That said, you're right that I've chosen my words very poorly in articulating my views on why the Dalish struggle to have a culture that's uniquely their own. I've clearly given the impression that I think there's nothing to the Dalish and for that I apologise, because at this point it's derailed the thread. Let's just say I'm completely wrong in what I said, and that I've been throughly crushed in rhetoric, form and fact on this point.
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#166
Reznore57

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It doesn't matter what Solas says. It doesn't matter if it's objectively true. It matters that the Dalish self-righteously believe it's an absolute fact without one iota of proof.

Are you *honestly* arguing right now that the Dalish don't believe Tevinter was responsible for the fall of Arlathan and they consider an elven civil war an equally plausible theory? Because that's ridiculous.

 

Well Tevinter also believe they sunk Arlathan somehow.

 I wonder how the whole story started.



#167
TheJediSaint

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Well Tevinter also believe they sunk Arlathan somehow.

 I wonder how the whole story started.

Ego.


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#168
LobselVith8

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It doesn't matter what Solas says. It doesn't matter if it's objectively true. It matters that the Dalish self-righteously believe it's an absolute fact without one iota of proof.

Are you *honestly* arguing right now that the Dalish don't believe Tevinter was responsible for the fall of Arlathan and they consider an elven civil war an equally plausible theory? Because that's ridiculous.

 

I'm pointing out that you're wrong to say that they treat the fall of Arlathan as though it as gospel, given that their own codex reads that it's a legend, and that it may or may not actually be true (as emphasized by 'whatever the case may be'). Merrill is makes it clear that the Dalish understand that they have limitations on their knowledge, that they don't have all the facts, and that it's been a process to try to reclaim knowledge about Elvhenan.

 

There's little point to continuing this particular discussion when the codex entry makes it clear that you simply aren't correct.


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#169
raging_monkey

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For the most part, people who are anti-Dalish are also pro-Elf.

i see a odd yet humourous irony distiction but i never denied that

#170
Steelcan

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Well Tevinter also believe they sunk Arlathan somehow.
 I wonder how the whole story started.

They may have sunk it after sacking it, but the Empire was destroyed in elf/elf conflict

#171
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No they don't
The Dalish took up the tattoos after the fall of the Dales as a giant middle finger to the humans. To make themselves distinct. And in their use, the vallaslin do honor the gods without slavery. It is patently obvious to all but the most ardent haters of the Dalish. You say the crucifix isn't the same thing? It is. Always has been. But arguing with someone like you is pointless.

Hate the dalish for what? i Belive that you are the one who whoship their proud little cult the one who want to compare two different symbol of two different reality.

Even the Dread wolf himself have make a warning to the Inquisitor about the valasslin, THE Dread wolf an elven god, not a random

city elf. 



#172
Reznore57

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They may have sunk it after sacking it, but the Empire was destroyed in elf/elf conflict

 

Yeah , possible.

There was still a war between Tevinter and the elves at some point afterall.



#173
Addai

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Whenever they say anything about what they've recovered or believe. They have an infallible belief in what Arlathan was as a society. In what led to its downfall. In what their way of life was like. All of it is treated as religious doctrine - infallible - rather than as history. They plead ignorance but are supremely confident that what little they DO know is right. Just look at Keeper Marethari's arrogance, how she believed she could somehow divine the reason behind the Eluvians going silent.

The Dalish don't say "our best archeological records indicate that the old elves of Arlathan had a Society that was principally led by mages, but we can't draw other conclusions about it due to lack of evidence".

This is simply false. Even Velanna laments that they have no stories of their own like the humans, and I can't think of a single instance where a Dalish claims infallible knowledge. Maybe you could point me to this dialogue of Marethari's that leads you to conclude all Dalish never question anything of their history.


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#174
Aren

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BSN is....an interesting place. Ive been fighting the 'elven war' here for some time and i've learned that people love to hate. Doesnt matter what it is, just so long as they can pour their hate on something in lieu of spreading hate against real world people and groups (because that brings down the banhammer). Im not talking about the people who simply dislike people/groups in the game world but people who spread ignorant and hateful poison time and time again regardless of the topic. There are a few who actually debate, such as yourself, on either side of the arguments but often get drowned out by the screeching masses. Anyway, its nice to find another student of history :)

See you want to imagine that others hate somthing. What kind of reasons  we have to hate the Dalish?

We have our point and the valleslin are one of them.

Without the dalish the DA franchise will be boring but still the question about the valleslin remains.



#175
Steelcan

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This is simply false. Even Velanna laments that they have no stories of their own like the humans, and I can't think of a single instance where a Dalish claims infallible knowledge. Maybe you could point me to this dialogue of Marethari's that leads you to conclude all Dalish never question anything of their history.

. Do the Dalish question that they have lost immortality due to humans?

Do they doubt that humans destroyed Arlathan?

Do they doubt that their version of events is true?