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[Hydwn]

To those of us who read The Masked Empire, the arrival of Lady Mantillon on the scene was a little surprising.  She was, after all, supposed to be dead.

 

For those who don't read the novels and the codices, the problem is this:

 

• Lady Mantillon - referred to as "the dowager" (a wealthy widow) - was the most powerful bard in Orlais.  It's uncertain if she's just the alpha in a chaotic pack, or if there really is a bardic order that Leliana once mentioned and she's the guildmaster.  Regardless, she's trained some of the best bards out there, including Celene herself.  She was possibly Emperor Florian's lover, and she almost certainly arranged his death.
• She also arranged the murder of all of Celene's servants, with Celene's permission as part of the game.  This included Briala's family.  For this, Briala killed her around 9:20 Dragon.
• This one is always referred to as "The Dowager."  A codex in Mark of the Assassin says that it's become a proverb in Orlais, "You must dance with the Dowager if you want to play the Game."  This is the one from Masked Empire, because both were supposed to have killed Florian and put Celene on the throne.
• In "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts," another Lady Mantillon shows up, supposedly 20 years after the first one's death.  This one is also called The Dowager.  This one hints at the proverb, impressed at the inquisitor's knowledge of the Game when the inquisitor asks her to dance.  

The question is, what is the relationship between these two women?  Is one the daughter/niece of the other.  If so, this family doesn't have very good luck in marriage, what with both being widows. 

 

Or is the Dowager and the name Lady Mantillon simply a fabricated identity assumed by the latest guildmaster/alpha of the bards of Orlais?  Maybe there have been a dozen Lady Mantillons, and when a new one rises everyone is just too terrified to admit they noticed the change?  

[Ozzy]

Are you certain that the Dowager's name is Lady Mantillon? I can recall them even revealing her name. IIRC she's just the random widow of quite a few lords, lol. Completely unrelated to the long deceased Lady Mantillon. 

[Hydwn]

Are you certain that the Dowager's name is Lady Mantillon? I can recall them even revealing her name. IIRC she's just the random widow of quite a few lords, lol. Completely unrelated to the long deceased Lady Mantillon. 

 

She's referred to as "Marquise Mantillon" on the war table missions, from the dance with the dowager line.

[Ozzy]

Yeah, I just went back and had a look over.

 

That is definitely odd to say the least. I suppose the Guildmaster idea is as reasonable as any other, at least until we get some clarification from the devs. 

[Hydwn]

It could just be a plain oversight as well - there were a few lore oversights, like Arl Eamon's two dads - but a rather big one since Patrick Weekes wrote Masked Empire and would have helped write Wicked Eyes, at least for his character's dialogue.

 

If intentional the guildmistress idea makes the most sense for me as well.

[Kantr]

It could just be a plain oversight as well - there were a few lore oversights, like Arl Eamon's two dads - but a rather big one since Patrick Weekes wrote Masked Empire and would have helped write Wicked Eyes, at least for his character's dialogue.

 

If intentional the guildmistress idea makes the most sense for me as well.

Where's the codex about Eamon's parents? They deliberately left that in

[Ozzy]

I'm not sure if he would have looked over wartable mission summaries though. He may have found nothing wrong with the mission itself (after all, the Dowager isn't referred to by name there) and the person taking care of the wartable summaries may have just (wrongly) assumed that she was Mantillon. 

 

I don't know.

 

I mean, the descriptions of Lady Mantillon don't really give off the vibe of a guildmaster. At least as far as the title of 'Lady Mantillon' is concerned. She comes off as an expert player of a game but as a real member of Orlesian nobility. She sends her son to court Celene after all. 

[littlebrightpanda]

Aren't families huge in Orlais? Could it be another Lady Mantillon, trained by the old one? Wouldn't it be likely that she would have sucessor?

[Hydwn]

 

I mean, the descriptions of Lady Mantillon don't really give off the vibe of a guildmaster. At least as far as the title of 'Lady Mantillon' is concerned. She comes off as an expert player of a game but as a real member of Orlesian nobility. She sends her son to court Celene after all. 

 

 

That could, of course, mean she's the masterful player of the Game of all.  The one who doesn't even look like she's playing it at bard-level

 

(What'd be really creepy would be if the Lady Mantillon identity changed hands...and the son changed as well.)

[Ozzy]

it would be funnier if the son remained the same. Especially as Lady Mantillon progressively got younger. 

[Hydwn]

Aren't families huge in Orlais? Could it be another Lady Mantillon, trained by the old one? Wouldn't it be likely that she would have sucessor?

 

True, but the thing is this new one is also called "dowager" - meaning a wealthy widow.  That's not too coincidental, but the fact that she knows the proverb about "dancing with the dowager" and applies it to herself suggests that she's taken over the other Lady Mantillon's legacy.  It'd be kind of strange if a widowed mother died and the widowed daughter took over right where mom left off as bard-master of Orlais. 

[Hydwn]

it would be funnier if the son remained the same. Especially as Lady Mantillon progressively got younger. 

 

If they wanted to go for funny and not creepy, yeah.  

 

(Someone really needs to get Patrick Weekes into this.  Too bad he doesn't hang out on the BSN.  I wonder if he'd answer a lore-tweet on Christmas Eve...?)

[XMissWooX]

Where's the codex about Eamon's parents? They deliberately left that in

Wasn't that the Fort Connor codex? It says that Arl Eamon Guerrin named the fort after his father, but his father was Arl Rendorn Guerrin, his son was Connor.

[Hydwn]

Where's the codex about Eamon's parents? They deliberately left that in

 

I'm not sure I know what you mean...?  Eamon's dad Conner was in a codex, and his other father was in The Stolen Throne.  Weekes joked about leaving it in and giving Eamon two dads, but I thought they were going to take it out in a patch or something.

[StrangeStrategy]

I as pretty shocked when I saw the name Mantillon. The original woman who killed the servants / trained Celene is most certainly dead, no dispute over that. The Dowager must be another Mantillon, that is a family name after all. Probably the daughter.

[Sith Grey Warden]

EDIT: Double ninja'd

[Hydwn]

I as pretty shocked when I saw the name Mantillon. The original woman who killed the servants / trained Celene is most certainly dead, no dispute over that. The Dowager must be another Mantillon, that is a family name after all. Probably the daughter.

 

That's what I was wondering.  I just found the fact that she seems to play exactly the same role in the game and she's also a dowager a little suspicious, and made me wonder if it's an assumed identity rather a family name.

[Kantr]

I'm not sure I know what you mean...?  Eamon's dad Conner was in a codex, and his other father was in The Stolen Throne.  Weekes joked about leaving it in and giving Eamon two dads, but I thought they were going to take it out in a patch or something.

I thought he was serious about leaving it in. I'm saying I didn't find the codex entry or didnt read it properly

[Hydwn]

I thought he was serious about leaving it in. I'm saying I didn't find the codex entry or didnt read it properly

 

You get it by claiming Fort Connor in the Hinterlands as a landmark, and it's under "Places."  It suggests that Eamon named his son after his father, when the books had him as Rendorn

[Arakat]

For those wondering, the Inquisitor actually calls the Dowager "Lady Mantillon" during the ball when asking her to dance, so that's definitely her name.

 

I'd forgotten Briala killed (a?) Lady Mantillon in TME, so I was just very excited to meet her, but yeah, this is definitely weird! But I really like the idea of a master bard who keeps the same name throughout generations. 

 

(Btw, did anyone else get the impression the deaths of those poor husbands were actually arranged by her? )

[Hydwn]

For those wondering, the Inquisitor actually calls the Dowager "Lady Mantillon" during the ball when asking her to dance, so that's definitely her name.

 

I'd forgotten Briala killed (a?) Lady Mantillon in TME, so I was just very excited to meet her, but yeah, this is definitely weird! But I really like the idea of a master bard who keeps the same name throughout generations. 

 

(Btw, did anyone else get the impression the deaths of those poor husbands were actually arranged by her? )

 

Or them...we might have found a very bizarre initiation method

 

But if it is an assumed identity, likely there were never any Lord Mantillons.

 

Maybe if she's hardened and not Divine, a "Lady Mantillon" could be a career path for Leliana

[sch1986]

I as pretty shocked when I saw the name Mantillon. The original woman who killed the servants / trained Celene is most certainly dead, no dispute over that. The Dowager must be another Mantillon, that is a family name after all. Probably the daughter.

This would be my guess. As far as I know there is no reason to believe the First Lady Mantillon was the last Mantillon.