24 réponses à ce sujet

[Salaya]

This is, by far, the most disappointing element for me in Inquisition. The new role for mages was completely unexpected: I have the feeling that I'm constantly blocking enemies, dealing normal to little damage. Even the specs are devised this way: low damage output, big blocking effects. The only alternative seems to be a Knight Enchanter which is basically turning your mage into a warrior of sorts.

 

I hope there is still room for classical damage-output mages in next installments or even in future dlcs for single player campaign (magic schools focused in dealing damage). I know some of you like this change or even deny this change has taken place, but I wonder if there is more people that feels like me.

 

 

 

[Cyonan]

Mages feel like they deal fine damage, but the title of "hilariously broken" was stolen by the Rogues.

 

It's mainly through the use of the Inferno tree. Fire Mine and Immolate hit pretty hard. Energy Barrage from Storm is pretty solid as well with being just shy of 800% weapon damage in total.

[Salaya]

Mages feel like they deal fine damage, but the title of "hilariously broken" was stolen by the Rogues.

 

It's mainly through the use of the Inferno tree. Fire Mine and Immolate hit pretty hard. Energy Barrage from Storm is pretty solid as well with being just shy of 800% weapon damage in total.

 

Yeah, it's true... archers seem the new primal mages; sometimes with those explosive arrows they look like origins mages with killer-fireballs

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I am disappointed in how restrictive the schools of magic and their specializations have become. So my concern when it comes to magic is lore oriented and immersion oriented. 

 

DAO

 

Arcane

Primal

Creation

Spirit

Entropy

 

Blood Mage

Spirit Healer

Arcane Warrior

Shapeshifter

Battlemage

Keeper

 

DA2

 

Elemental 

Primal

Creation

Arcane 

Spirit

Entropy

 

Blood Mage

Spirit Healer

Force Mage

 

DAI

 

Inferno

Winter

Storm 

Spirit

 

Rift Mage

Knight Enchanter

Necromancer

 

Conclusion

 

The mages have lost the variety and diversity in schools of magic. Spirit spells are limited to specializations, nature spells and physical spells are gone. Its all Elemental now which is quite frankly pathetic.

 

I mean, how does this bode well if the series is going north in the next installment, to places like Tevinter where magic is supposed to be diverse, powerful and widely practiced ? 

 

I mean this game is a game that spans 2 nations and that is all we got out of the magical schools and specializations whereas DAO was game that spans 1 nation and has far more variety. 

[Djoan Nefarius]

Yes, magic is oversimplified and boring in DA:I.

Also i hate that there is no any decent single target direct damaging spells, lighting bolt does decent damage only if there is like 8 people around your target and that's pretty much it. 

Let's hope there will be mods that will fix it.

[Klystron]

Yes, my mage felt pretty limited compared to previous games.

It doesn't really seem to be any one thing, but a bunch of little things.  The class just felt ... uninspiring.

 

A few items that come to mind:

>  Some of the CC spells were pretty lame, and useless in boss fights

>  Mana -- if I opened with barrier I didn't have enough mana left to cast much else, maybe immolate.  Likewise I couldn't do the lightning cage + walking bomb combo, I needed a second mage in the party.  (If I play again I'll do rift mage)

>  8 slots.  In fights where the mobs were cold resistant or fire resistant, choices got pretty limited.

[dlux]

Yeah, the magic system is very disappointing in DA:I
 
I posted this in another thread and this is just one example.
 

Uh huh.
 
Damage mitigation (basically barrier) and healing spells from Dragon Age: Origins:
 

 
 
Were replaced with this in Dragon Age: Inquisition:
 

 
  
 
 Truly impressive progress. Almost as impressive as the (near) complete removal of buffs in in DA:I.

[UniformGreyColor]

 Because a single spell can do 3-4 things at once...

[Epyon5757]

Yeah, the magic system is very disappointing in DA:I
 
I posted this in another thread and this is just one example.
 

 

There's a ton of duplicates in Origins.  In the pic you posted, those are all variants of just two spells - they all, with minor variations, do pretty much the same thing.  Who needs nine different shields/magic armors and six different ways to heal?  Sometimes, simpler is better.  In the case if distilling to barrier and revival, that is actually a good change, I think.

 

Furthermore... Who the heck needs 100+ spells?  I have never, in any game, used more than six or seven in a battle, despite having more in my arsenal.  BioWare gets regular telemetry from their games (all studios do).  If wouldn't surprise me if their telemetry from DAO and 2 showed most people only use seven or eight. 

[Uccio]

There's a ton of duplicates in Origins.  In the pic you posted, those are all variants of just two spells - they all, with minor variations, do pretty much the same thing.  Who needs nine different shields/magic armors and six different ways to heal?  Sometimes, simpler is better.  In the case if distilling to barrier and revival, that is actually a good change, I think.

 

Furthermore... Who the heck needs 100+ spells?  I have never, in any game, used more than six or seven in a battle, despite having more in my arsenal.  BioWare gets regular telemetry from their games (all studios do).  If wouldn't surprise me if their telemetry from DAO and 2 showed most people only use seven or eight. 

 

 

Well I do. When I play mage I want to decided which spells I use and which not. I love to try different talents and trees. I love to shuffle through the spells when I consider variations and possibilities. In DAI I have practically none.

[Epyon5757]

Well I do. When I play mage I want to decided which spells I use and which not. I love to try different talents and trees. I love to shuffle through the spells when I consider variations and possibilities. In DAI I have practically none.

 

While I understand wanting to try different combos, there's no real point in having six shields that all perform basically the same way, nor is there any real reason to have five offensive spells that pretty much do the same thing.  What's the difference between a frost spell that gives 100 damage and freezes the enemy for five seconds and an electricity spell that does 100 damage and paralyzes the enemy for five seconds?  Nothing, unless the enemy has resistance {and that doesn't happen frequently enough to warrant four spells of the same thing).

[wepeel_]

low damage output, big blocking effects

 

The low damage isn't related to the spells or schools themselves, but rather to staves having so low damage compared to other weapons, especially other 2H weapons. There was never any reason given for this, but I guess BW didn't want mages dealing super-high damage as well as dealing constant aoe damage and controlling enemies. It's not bad reasoning, but considering the many enemies and bosses in the game that are simply immune to all the controlling effects at a mage's disposal - leaving the mage with little to do but spam their most powerful single-target nuke - it would be nice if all schools at least had access to a hard-hitting, low-cooldown, single-target ability to fall back on.

[Frenrihr]

Pretty much, i already posted in my other thread, the:

 

-Dumbed down spells

-Removal of Healing magics and buffs

-Damage spells are crap, most of your spells are crowd control

-Willpower dumbed down

-No damage dealer spec, only tank, control and "pet" specs.

-Only 8 skill slots

 

Seriously the most powerfull spell is fire mine, which is BORING as ******** with an area too small that you need to baby sit it with pull of the abyss or something, where is my fire ball?, or my super inferno storm, or my thunder storm, my earthquake, all of those amazing AoE spells like storm of the century?, the winter tree SUCKS, ice wall and fire wall? who the hell is going to use those garbages?.

[Lavaeolus]

Who needs nine different shields/magic armors and six different ways to heal?

It helps to have some variance to healing role, and not all heals are appropriate to all situations. You certainly don't want to sit there pressing "Heal", cooldown, "Heal"... Let's say you're up against Mr. Poison. Mr. Poison poisons constantly -- it's almost impossible to just remove the condition, because he just keeps poisoning. So maybe you want a small Heal over Time, just to counteract the slight DoT. A character is about to wade into danger, taking a high-damage shot perhaps, and it's uncertain at what point he'll take the hit and he'll need immediate healing afterwards -- something like Lifeward will be handy.

I'm not saying Origins was the best at this, but I think Inquisition is a step in the wrong direction (though I don't have a problem with removing healing persay, just to be clear). It's just... activate barrier. Your all-purpose damage mitigation. Watch out for your cooldown.

While I understand wanting to try different combos, there's no real point in having six shields that all perform basically the same way, nor is there any real reason to have five offensive spells that pretty much do the same thing.  What's the difference between a frost spell that gives 100 damage and freezes the enemy for five seconds and an electricity spell that does 100 damage and paralyzes the enemy for five seconds?  Nothing, unless the enemy has resistance {and that doesn't happen frequently enough to warrant four spells of the same thing).

And that's all true. But I think a better solution would be to try and vary the shield's purposes: make them unique, beyond "electric version". Surely there must be some way to change them around? This is a game that proudly boasts a tactical camera, it shouldn't be needlessly convoluted, but it shouldn't be simplified too far. Though I admit, with shields in particular I find it hard to imagine much variance.

Of course, Casual difficulty should still be available, so you don't have to stress over it, if you don't want to. Not that Casual mode should just be "everything falls over and dies in a second" (unless they introduce "Narrative" difficulty, ala ME3).

[Epyon5757]

It helps to have some variance to healing role, and not all heals are appropriate to all situations. You certainly don't want to sit there pressing "Heal", cooldown, "Heal"... Let's say you're up against Mr. Poison. Mr. Poison poisons constantly -- it's almost impossible to just remove the condition, because he just keeps poisoning. So maybe you want a small Heal over Time, just to counteract the slight DoT. A character is about to wade into danger, taking a high-damage shot perhaps, and it's uncertain at what point he'll take the hit and he'll need immediate healing afterwards -- something like Lifeward will be handy.

I'm not saying Origins was the best at this, but I think Inquisition is a step in the wrong direction (though I don't have a problem with removing healing persay, just to be clear). It's just... activate barrier. Your all-purpose damage mitigation. Watch out for your cooldown.


And that's all true. But I think a better solution would be to try and vary the shield's purposes: make them unique, beyond "electric version". Surely there must be some way to change them around? This is a game that proudly boasts a tactical camera, it shouldn't be needlessly convoluted, but it shouldn't be simplified too far. Though I admit, with shields in particular I find it hard to imagine much variance.

Of course, Casual difficulty should still be available, so you don't have to stress over it, if you don't want to. Not that Casual mode should just be "everything falls over and dies in a second" (unless they introduce "Narrative" difficulty, ala ME3).

 

If there was a significant variance in the DA universe in terms of what all those shields and attacks did, I wouldn't have a problem with the variants.  However, they've never really been distinctly different except in appearance.  I guess that's why I don't really have a problem with the simplification, as there's never been a drastic enough difference in most cases on the previous games for me to go ”gee, I wish I had ice cone instead of fire cone.”

[Lavaeolus]

Removing the small differences they do have is not the solution, I feel. It's not like the different spells are now that different and unique in Inquisition. We have Fire Mine and Ice Mine, Wall of Fire and Wall of Ice. We have a bunch of damaging abilities, mostly interchangable. We can panic individual enemies, stun a few, or freeze them. Fade Step is a nice addition, unique, good for re-positioning, but that's one spell.

We've lost the healing variation I mentioned before -- which could similarly be applied to to other effects, I suppose -- we can no longer apply buffs to our parties (Haste is a Necromancer focus ability), the debuffs are butchered. We've removed uniqueness, not simplified things and made it clear.

Origins and DA2 may not have been ideal, but like I said, step in the wrong direction.

[Xx Serissia xX]

Given the option I normally play rogues.  However, I felt much like in DA2 playing a mage would put me more in the middle of the story.  I went fire which is fairly hard hitting and it was still really boring.  I ended up taking Knight-Enchanter since I thought it would be a little more fun.  

 

As other people said there really needs to be a hard hitting single target direct damage spell for boss fights.  Prior to becoming a Knight-Enchanter I felt useless on bosses.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I agree, unless you go Knight Enchanter, all you really have is mark of the rift, and it is a DOT, not a DPS spell. Now what is fun is getting silverite, so you can wear heavy armor. Yes it is designed for 2 mages in the party but, after trying each class, I find the game is basically built for a mage inquisitor, preferably a KE because some quests are best done with Solas, Dorian and, a rogue along so, no tank except a KE.

[dlux]

Seriously the most powerfull spell is fire mine, which is BORING as ******** with an area too small that you need to baby sit it with pull of the abyss or something, where is my fire ball?, or my super inferno storm, or my thunder storm, my earthquake, all of those amazing AoE spells like storm of the century?, the winter tree SUCKS, ice wall and fire wall? who the hell is going to use those garbages?.

Yep.
 
Offensive magic in Dragon Age: Origins:

 
 
Was dumbed down to this in Dragon Age: Inquisition:

 
Truly impressive progress.

[In Exile]

Yep.

Offensive magic in Dragon Age: Origins:



Was dumbed down to this in Dragon Age: Inquisition:


Truly impressive progress.

That list is not correct for DAO. A number of those spells are not offensive. Earthquake is CC and crap CC at that, for example. You've also excluded all of the specialisation damage spells from both games. Mind blast is also not an offensive spell.

In fact your list for DAI is just as much trash. It excludes winter's grasp (which is the ice damage spell) and includes ice mine which is CC and causes no damage. Its missing other spells too.

So not only are you misrepresenting DAI you're also misrepresenting DAO.

At least make it look like you played the games. Or that you're not spitefully dishonest.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Yep.
 
Offensive magic in Dragon Age: Origins:

 
 
Was dumbed down to this in Dragon Age: Inquisition:

 
Truly impressive progress.

So... Flashfire? Energy Barrage? Stone Fist? Spirit Blade? Walking Bomb? Spirit Mark? Winter's Grasp? Horror?Wall Of Fire? Did you suddenly forget all these abilities also deal damage? 

Not to mention, mages have more interesting utility this game- rather than 20 second paralysis and debuffs/buffs that scarcely get used.

[dlux]

That list is not correct for DAO. A number of those spells are not offensive. Earthquake is CC and crap CC at that, for example. You've also excluded all of the specialisation damage spells from both games. Mind blast is also not an offensive spell.

In fact your list for DAI is just as much trash. It excludes winter's grasp (which is the ice damage spell) and includes ice mine which is CC and causes no damage. Its missing other spells too.

So not only are you misrepresenting DAI you're also misrepresenting DAO.

Thanks, I fixed the lists. I guess I should have given it a bit more effort while proving my point that DA:I is a completely dumbed down.

These are the basic spells of both games, without specializations. I might do another one comparing specializations and CC spells (Origins wins here too of course).

At least make it look like you played the games. Or that you're not spitefully dishonest.

Well, I haven't played enough of DA:I (only 10 hours) because it is a god awful horrible game. You're right on that part.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I honestly felt there were filler spells in Origins that had no real use but to help you reach further into the tree.

Now mages get a mix of damage, utility and protection and they're simply a lot more fun to play and manage. Spells are a lot more tactical as they rely on positioning and planning, and you actually use, and if anything's 'dumbed down' it's DA:O's spells that require little to no skill to spam, and destroy everything almost brainlessly. This is coming from someone's who's finished both DA:O and DA:I as a mage. 

[Morroian]

I honestly felt there were filler spells in Origins that had no real use but to help you reach further into the tree.

 

Of course there were but that was largely fixed in DA2.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

A thing I wanna expand on is how each spell in Dragon Age Inquisition is unique, and simply functions much differently than other spells. Chain Lightning isn't the same as Lightning bolt that works differently from Flash Fire that varies vastly from Static Cage. There are very little similarities in spell functionalities it makes you want to consider what kind of function you want for your mage, do you want a quick AOE DPS? Or would you rather do more planning and set ups and use a much powerful mine that can also burst? Would you rather create a wall of ice at an area to block people from reaching you? Or would you rather set up an ice mine that'll freeze anyone that comes near you AND at the same time you can utilize offensively. 

Meanwhile in DA:O Inferno, Blizzard and Tempest are ultimately the same, Arcane Bolt and Lightning are both a single target dps that function the same but with different elements, Winters Grasp and Stone fist are both single target dos that function the same; having a semi cc attached to them. Virulent Walking Bomb is just an upgrade of Walking Bomb.