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Homosexuality in Dragon Age


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#301
TeraBat

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That's a great idea.

I definitely do realize there's a lot of recreational sex. But the thing is, recreational sex is actually pretty normal (nonthinkers: HE JUST SAID BEING GAY ISN'T NORMAL) for a "young person." I'm sure you know of the concept of college being the place where you go to party and have lots of sex. However, this is all constructed on the idea that after college...you kind of settle down. You think about finding a guy/girl you can have a family with.

So the crux of the issue is: the "recreational sex" idea is typically portrayed as a stage of life, before you go on to have a family. That's not the same as the "homosexual lifestyle," as I called it, which is permanent (which is why the label refers to something "permanent" like homosexuality, as opposed to recreation--the very term implies an event). Which raises problems for a society with a high death rate (which can also be debated of course).

 

Holy crap, I feel bad for whomever you marry when you get to your 30s, 40s, and even 50s and beyond. "Recreational sex" isn't something that stops once you get married. Even people who have been together forever still have sex for fun, even after they have children.

 

Also, in a society with a high death rate, one can assume that there will be a lot of orphans running around. Who better to take care of them than the gay couple with no children of their own?

 

Edit: Also pointing out that it's been established that Circle mages basically have nothing but recreational sex; since that's what life was like in the towers. So the birth rate crisis can't be *that* bad. 


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#302
Decepticon Leader Sully

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Nah "your claimed" is fighting words.



#303
ERINII

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Why the hate on Iron Bull? His romance is pretty fun.

 

Mine would be:

 

Kaidan>Theron>Anders>IronBull>Fenris>Zevran>Steve>Dorian.

 

Mine is p much the same. I think it's because of the lack of romantic moments with Bull and how casual he seems about the relationship. You literally end his romance with one word. Personally I think it suits him, but it's not for everyone.


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#304
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Holy crap, I feel bad for whomever you marry when you get to your 30s, 40s, and even 50s and beyond. "Recreational sex" isn't something that stops once you get married. Even people who have been together forever still have sex for fun, even after they have children.
 
Also, in a society with a high death rate, one can assume that there will be a lot of orphans running around. Who better to take care of them than the gay couple with no children of their own?
 
Edit: Also pointing out that it's been established that Circle mages basically have nothing but recreational sex; since that's what life was like in the towers. So the birth rate crisis can't be *that* bad.


So make that an option to say, though I'll point out that we've seen next to no evidence of that (saw more of that in SKYRIM, which is a little embarrassing).

#305
Gaesesagai

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@Entropicangel: It's fascinating how he/she gets more offensive and oblivious with each post.



#306
TeraBat

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I'm also pointing out that even in real-world medieval Europe, when people were dropping like flies, there were still entire classes of people whose existence was largely defined by their celibacy. No one was complaining that the existence of priests, monks, nuns, etc., meant that the remaining folks wouldn't be able to have enough babies to ensure social stability. 

 

Gay people make up, by our best estimates, something like 4-8% of the population. Even if all of them are totally and completely gay and never once experiment or turn out to be bisexual, that's still not a large enough number to have any significant impact on the average birth rate. The incidence of gay people also goes up with a high birth rate - the more children a woman has, the likelier it is that her next baby will be born gay. And if a woman is having 5-6 children, things are probably okay as far as birth rates go. There's also some evidence that the occurrence of homosexuality increases as a response to urbanization and overcrowding. So, since there are a ton of gay and bisexual people in the DAverse, we can therefore assume that the birth rate is doing just fine. 

 

Lastly, a lot of people reject the idea that their purpose in life is to settle down and have children. That life path isn't for everyone; and a lot of people are perfectly happy and find fulfillment without having children. So your core assumption regarding why it's permissible to 'question the homosexual lifestyle' is severely flawed. 


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#307
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@Entropicangel: It's fascinating how he/she gets more offensive and oblivious with each post.


It's fascinating how I asked you to show where I said that Bioware had a "gay agenda" and was "shoving it down our throats," and you had no reply.

Keep on (t)rollin', baby.

#308
StrangeStrategy

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People breed like rats though. And it isn't as bad as the Dark Ages. And mages heal more often than they destroy.

You're comparing a fictional world to IRL History... Specifically, the Dark Ages. The only reason homophobia became a thing was the spread of religion, which happened to include a homophobic verse or two. The Chant of Light does not, and prior to Christianity, homosexuality wasn't abnormal... In some societies, it was even encouraged. Bro, do you even Greece?

 



#309
TeraBat

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I mean, if your core concern is that the "homosexual lifestyle" isn't conducive to breeding purposes... how do you address that your Warden, Hawke and the Inquisitor are all mostly childfree? 

 

Your male dwarf noble Warden can have a baby as an heir, but he can then go on to make a lifelong commitment to Zevran. There's also what Morrigan is up to; but that baby's purpose isn't family, establishing a life milestone or anything like that. Even if your Warden goes on to marry Anora or Alistair, the union does not produce any children. 

 

Hawke never has children; the Inquisitor, as far as we know, also does not have any children. So why aren't you complaining that Bioware is refusing to 'question the childfree lifestyle'? I mean, there's not one single quest which is focused on settling down and finding a life partner with whom you can have children. Not even Dragon Age 2, which was all about your Hawke finding their place in the world, developing their career, etc. You can ask your Love Interest to move in with you, but there is never any discussion of family or marriage (that I know of - I haven't played through all the romance storylines, and it's been awhile since i picked up the game, but I can't recall anything going in Hawke's life which suggested s/he should maybe consider making baby-making a priority). 


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#310
Colonelkillabee

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Them's fightin' words.

I'm sure white Thedas is shaking in their boots at the thought of fighting warriors that average four foot three, lol.


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#311
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I'm also pointing out that even in real-world medieval Europe, when people were dropping like flies, there were still entire classes of people whose existence was largely defined by their celibacy. No one was complaining that the existence of priests, monks, nuns, etc., meant that the remaining folks wouldn't be able to have enough babies to ensure social stability. 
 
Gay people make up, by our best estimates, something like 4-8% of the population. Even if all of them are totally and completely gay and never once experiment or turn out to be bisexual, that's still not a large enough number to have any significant impact on the average birth rate. The incidence of gay people also goes up with a high birth rate - the more children a woman has, the likelier it is that her next baby will be born gay. And if a woman is having 5-6 children, things are probably okay as far as birth rates go. There's also some evidence that the occurrence of homosexuality increases as a response to urbanization and overcrowding. So, since there are a ton of gay and bisexual people in the DAverse, we can therefore assume that the birth rate is doing just fine. 
 
Lastly, a lot of people reject the idea that their purpose in life is to settle down and have children. That life path isn't for everyone; and a lot of people are perfectly happy and find fulfillment without having children. So your core assumption regarding why it's permissible to 'question the homosexual lifestyle' is severely flawed.


First off, I'm glad that you're taking this seriously now. THIS is how conversation should be, not nonsensical claims that someone is thinking something that they've never said. I appreciate your response. Now:

I googled "percentage of homosexual relationships in Dragon Age" because I think that's an important consideration (because I don't think it's the same as RL, and that's what your argument is based upon), but couldn't come up with anything.

However, I came across this, "Sexuality and marriage" on the Wiki. It points out something interesting:

"Same-sex relations are generally considered strange in Ferelden, but Fereldans do not consider it immoral, and place no particular stigma upon it. Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for relations with multiple partners of any gender. The Chantry does not seem to have an official view on the subject, and nowhere in Thedas is it prohibited.[8]

There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves or dwarves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring, and human noble families place great stock in the continuity of bloodlines in order to have clear heirs to noble titles and fortunes, and thus avoid the conflicts that often erupt when succession is not clear.

In Tevinter, same-sex relationships between nobles are largely hidden. These relationships are encouraged with favored slaves."

This implies to me that for an elf, dwarf, or human noble (of the which all our humans have been), procreation is important.


This is tangential to your argument, however. To address it directly, as I mentioned before, I'm not sure the ratio is the same as real life. It's a good argument, and I can't say I have a compelling argument against it, outside of that ^^, though I'm pretty sure there's a significant difference.

I personally have trouble with the idea that my purpose in life is to settle down and have children too. But I don't think it's unreasonable, at all, for the kind of world of DA.

#312
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I mean, if your core concern is that the "homosexual lifestyle" isn't conducive to breeding purposes... how do you address that your Warden, Hawke and the Inquisitor are all mostly childfree? 
 
Your male dwarf noble Warden can have a baby as an heir, but he can then go on to make a lifelong commitment to Zevran. There's also what Morrigan is up to; but that baby's purpose isn't family, establishing a life milestone or anything like that. Even if your Warden goes on to marry Anora or Alistair, the union does not produce any children. 
 
Hawke never has children; the Inquisitor, as far as we know, also does not have any children. So why aren't you complaining that Bioware is refusing to 'question the childfree lifestyle'? I mean, there's not one single quest which is focused on settling down and finding a life partner with whom you can have children. Not even Dragon Age 2, which was all about your Hawke finding their place in the world, developing their career, etc. You can ask your Love Interest to move in with you, but there is never any discussion of family or marriage (that I know of - I haven't played through all the romance storylines, and it's been awhile since i picked up the game, but I can't recall anything going in Hawke's life which suggested s/he should maybe consider making baby-making a priority).


I am not complaining about it first because that's not what this thread is even about. Create that thread. This thread is about homosexuality, and not only homosexuality, but homosexuality in Dragon Age. Dragon Age, not the player characters. It doesn't have very much to do with the player character, and has a lot to do with the entire game world.

And the game world provides examples (not many, because DA doesn't like children, but a few) of heterosexual relationships that produce children.

#313
Hanako Ikezawa

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Hawke never has children; the Inquisitor, as far as we know, also does not have any children. So why aren't you complaining that Bioware is refusing to 'question the childfree lifestyle'? I mean, there's not one single quest which is focused on settling down and finding a life partner with whom you can have children. Not even Dragon Age 2, which was all about your Hawke finding their place in the world, developing their career, etc. You can ask your Love Interest to move in with you, but there is never any discussion of family or marriage (that I know of - I haven't played through all the romance storylines, and it's been awhile since i picked up the game, but I can't recall anything going in Hawke's life which suggested s/he should maybe consider making baby-making a priority). 

I disagree with your statement that Hawke never has children. We don't know one way or the other, so that is up to interpretation by the player. The only LIs in DA2 that we know will be childless relationships are Sebastian(and even then maybe only Friendship Path since Rivalry Path has him go back to becoming a noble, where heirs are expected and thus he may break his vow of chastity) and Isabela because iirc she says she is barren. Other than them, a heterosexual relationship with Anders, Fenris, or Merrill may very well produce children and it is a perfectly valid view for players to think so. Also, if Hawke is male Merrill does bring up the prospect of children as something her clan would disapprove of since she is supposed to preserve elven kind and giving birth to an elf-blooded human goes against that but decides that her clan couldn't hate her more anyway so it wouldn't matter and she'd rather be with you. 



#314
TeraBat

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This is tangential to your argument, however. To address it directly, as I mentioned before, I'm not sure the ratio is the same as real life. It's a good argument, and I can't say I have a compelling argument against it, outside of that ^^, though I'm pretty sure there's a significant difference.

I personally have trouble with the idea that my purpose in life is to settle down and have children too. But I don't think it's unreasonable, at all, for the kind of world of DA.

 

But here's the thing: 

 

Even the hetero relationships in the DAverse don't often produce children. At least, not the romances which the Warden/Hawke/the Inquisitor get involved in. There's Kieran, of course, but he was created as part of a long-term plan and not because Morrigan decided it was time for her to settle down and have kids. 

 

It seems if your concern is 'perpetuating your race', then using 'questioning the homosexual lifestyle' is a clumsy and bad-faith way to do it. Especially because what your Warden/Hawke/Inquisitor is doing will likely ensure the continued survival of all races way more than if they had a baby or two. 



#315
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But here's the thing: 

 

Even the hetero relationships in the DAverse don't often produce children. At least, not the romances which the Warden/Hawke/the Inquisitor get involved in. There's Kieran, of course, but he was created as part of a long-term plan and not because Morrigan decided it was time for her to settle down and have kids. 

 

It seems if your concern is 'perpetuating your race', then using 'questioning the homosexual lifestyle' is a clumsy and bad-faith way to do it. Especially because what your Warden/Hawke/Inquisitor is doing will likely ensure the continued survival of all races way more than if they had a baby or two. 

Also all dwarf and male elf Wardens and Inquisitors are inherently unable to perpetuate their races based on the LIs they have access to.



#316
TeraBat

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I disagree with your statement that Hawke never has children. We don't know one way or the other, so that is up to interpretation by the player. The only LIs in DA2 that we know will be childless relationships are Sebastian(and even then maybe only Friendship Path since Rivalry Path has him go back to becoming a noble, where heirs are expected and thus he may break his vow of chastity) and Isabela because iirc she says she is barren. Other than them, a heterosexual relationship with Anders, Fenris, or Merrill may very well produce children and it is a perfectly valid view for players to think so. Also, if Hawke is male Merrill does bring up the prospect of children as something her clan would disapprove of since she is supposed to preserve elven kind and giving birth to an elf-blooded human goes against that but decides that her clan couldn't hate her more anyway so it wouldn't matter and she'd rather be with you. 

 

Sure, I agree that there's a possibility. But at this point, writing that Hawke has children is pretty much fanfiction - there's nothing concrete to establish that Hawke has a child with anyone; not even tangential or circumstantial evidence. Especially since you'd think Hawke would have brought up a kid

Spoiler



#317
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But here's the thing: 
 
Even the hetero relationships in the DAverse don't often produce children. At least, not the romances which the Warden/Hawke/the Inquisitor get involved in. There's Kieran, of course, but he was created as part of a long-term plan and not because Morrigan decided it was time for her to settle down and have kids. 
 
It seems if your concern is 'perpetuating your race', then using 'questioning the homosexual lifestyle' is a clumsy and bad-faith way to do it. Especially because what your Warden/Hawke/Inquisitor is doing will likely ensure the continued survival of all races way more than if they had a baby or two.


My next post (the one right before this one) pretty much addresses this. It's less about the protag and more about the DA universe. And even if it's about the protag, I would say that's a great point and the game should address that as well--but this thread is about one aspect in particular.

#318
TeraBat

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My next post (the one right before this one) pretty much addresses this. It's less about the protag and more about the DA universe. And even if it's about the protag, I would say that's a great point and the game should address that as well--but this thread is about one aspect in particular.

 

So maybe it's better for you to switch to using 'questioning your characters' decision not to procreate despite the social pressures to do so' rather than say 'questioning the homosexual lifestyle.' Because that latter phrase is a favorite thing for bigots to say when they want to sneakily imply that gay people are all untrustworthy, disease-ridden sluts and that's why they can't have marriage rights/anti-discrimination protection/etc. 


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#319
Hanako Ikezawa

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Sure, I agree that there's a possibility. But at this point, writing that Hawke has children is pretty much fanfiction - there's nothing concrete to establish that Hawke has a child with anyone; not even tangential or circumstantial evidence. Especially since you'd think Hawke would have brought up a kid

Spoiler

And likewise, stated they don't as a fact like you did is pretty much fanfiction for exactly the same reason. There is nothing concrete to establish that Hawke did not. For example, I romanced Merrill who is currently watching over elves and keeping them from being caught in the crossfire of the Mage-Templar War. So it makes perfect sense for her to be watching over the child while Hawke does the dangerous things Hawke does. The only reason Morrigan brings Kieren with her is because there is nobody else to watch over him(and to let those who did the Dark Ritual see that plot point come to conclusion). And asking someone to say goodbye to a friend indicates they don't have kids? You'll have to explain that one to me. The point is I was just disagreeing with you stating Hawke being childless is no more concrete than them being a parent. Both are valid since there isn't enough info to prove it concretely one way or the other. 

 

As for the Inquisitor, it is too soon to be using them as an example since the relationships are only a few months old at max. :P



#320
sH0tgUn jUliA

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What was it we used to say about these fantasy RPGs and stuff? It isn't the Middle Ages as they were. It's the way they should have been.

 

I mean there's elves and dwarves.... and dragons!!!!



#321
TeraBat

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And asking someone to say goodbye to a friend indicates they don't have kids? You'll have to explain that one to me. The point is I was just disagreeing with you stating Hawke being childless is no more concrete than them being a parent. Both are valid since there isn't enough info to prove it concretely one way or the other. 

 

Spoilers for Here Lies the Abyss behind the button. 

Spoiler

 

 And it's easy to prove that Hawke is childless because Hawke never mentions having children. When you flee Lothering, your whole family is shown and there are no babies. And no one ever mentions Hawke experiencing such a life-changing event as having a child. 


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#322
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So maybe it's better for you to switch to using 'questioning your characters' decision not to procreate despite the social pressures to do so' rather than say 'questioning the homosexual lifestyle.' Because that latter phrase is a favorite thing for bigots to say when they want to sneakily imply that gay people are all untrustworthy, disease-ridden sluts and that's why they can't have marriage rights/anti-discrimination protection/etc.


If this thread were about that, I'd agree. I'm only following the line of conversation introduced by the OP.

I have no problem with your version. It's simply more prevalent with homosexuals by virtue of post 299 of mine.



#323
Hanako Ikezawa

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Spoilers for Here Lies the Abyss behind the button. 

Spoiler

 

 And it's easy to prove that Hawke is childless because Hawke never mentions having children. When you flee Lothering, your whole family is shown and there are no babies. And no one ever mentions Hawke experiencing such a life-changing event as having a child. 

Spoiler

 

Them not mentioning something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Again, leaving it open to interpretation is best because it lets people from both camps have what they want. It's like a Schrodinger paradox. Until the character states something, everything and nothing is valid. As for Lothering, that happens before DA2 even really starts so don't get why you bring that up since of course they didn't have children with the LI before they met the LI. 



#324
Gaesesagai

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Spoiler

 

Them not mentioning something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Again, leaving it open to interpretation is best because it lets people from both camps have what they want. It's like a Schrodinger paradox. Until the character states something, everything and nothing is valid. As for Lothering, that happens before DA2 even really starts so don't get why you bring that up since of course they didn't have children with the LI before they met the LI. 

 

This is silly lol.

Until devs say one way or another, Hawke having kids is indeed uncertain. However it's reasonably fair to assume, based on in game experience and character dialogues, that Hawke doesn't have children.



#325
Hanako Ikezawa

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This is silly lol.

Until devs say one way or another, Hawke having kids is indeed uncertain. However it's reasonably fair to assume, based on in game experience and character dialogues, that Hawke doesn't have children.

I never said it wasn't fair to assume that. In fact, I said it was perfectly valid to do so. But likewise, it is perfectly valid to think they do.