386 réponses à ce sujet

[GameBoyish]

I think what's sad about "playersexual" arguments is that it is a form of bi-erasure.

Fenris sleeps around with Isabella when not romanced, Anders has a male lover in DA2 and Isabella, well, she sleeps with Wardens regardless of gender. I like that these sort of show that these characters have identified with certain sexual orientation.

Merrill was a bit of an oddball but it's fair to assume she is young and hasn't really ventured out sexually at least.

I didn't romance in DA2 because Isabella was bff material to me and the other romanceable characters did not appeal to me. All I wanted was Aveline and Varric!

[Monica21]

I headcanoned it? I romanced Fenris over and over and over and over again; tbh I didn't like to think of him as being interested in women or... even other men >.>

In all seriousness, I believe the idea was put into our heads when the devs themselves began using the term. I'd never really thought about the matter before then. I did not think of the characters' sexuality. I just thought of them as "romance options." I didn't think of my own character's gender either. (But this comes from a gender neutral person)

For what it's worth, I actually thought this was a dev term too. I remember seeing far too many threads discussing it during Inquisition development, but perhaps I'm off since Gaider doesn't like it.

[vertigomez]

Merrill was a bit of an oddball but it's fair to assume she is young and hasn't really ventured out sexually at least.

She did say the male qunari were "easy on the eyes"...

I found a lot of her dialogue with Isabela to be suggestive (obviously mostly on Isabela's end, "stories that'll make your toes curl" etc. etc. but Merrill did have the "it's no surprise at all that anybody would love you" line). Could be Girl Talk™, could be flirtatious banter. And there's the thing with Carver...

I have no idea what this has to do with anything except that I think of all the DA2 LIs minus Sebastian as bisexual, not playersexual, regardless of dev comments.

[Pee Jae]

... wants a completely different world from ours in a fantasy setting to be... realistic.

 

[Former_Fiend]

To be fair there were ancient societies where homosexual wasn't that big a deal. Roman and Greek spring to mind.

 

That's not entirely accurate. Male homosexuality wasn't a big deal if you were the one doing the penetrating; the one being penetrated was looked down upon. Female homosexuality was entirely looked down upon.

 

Greeks and Romans looked at sex as a power game, a display of dominance over others. It wasn't the utopia of sexual equality some people make it out to be.

 

Having said that, the fallacy in the "realism" argument is something else, entirely. It's the belief that because things happened a certain way in the real world, that's the only way they could have happened. 

 

Just because many - by no means all - societies throughout real world history have stigmatized homosexuality doesn't make a world where that doesn't happen unrealistic. It just makes it different.

[Dean_the_Young]

The legacy angle seemed to be the whole premise to me. I mean, there was even a phrase about Pavus Sr's "precious legacy". 

 

I didn't feel it that way, in part because the role of children or the possibility of a discrete affair on the side were never really addressed. It was 'fix the gay for family honor,' full stop, rather than 'just sow the oats already.'

 

I can get why Dorian wouldn't even want that- and I don't think Dorian is the problem in any sense of this. But considering how Gaider has talked about how the issue with Tevinter is public homosexuality amongst the nobility, but other ways are accepted if kept discrete, the fact that so little attention was spent on that or the role of children rather than public shame of teh gay...

 

 

[Dean_the_Young]

That's literally what they did. Halward was only trying to change Dorian's orientation so that Dorian would marry a woman and make an heir. His problem wasn't Dorian's inherent sexuality, it was Dorian's refusal to pretend otherwise. But if you change that sexuality, then you bypass that.

 

The way I saw it on my playthrough, the father's issue (and solution) was more the inherent sexuallity side of things. Dorian wouldn't pretend, and I think that was totally fine and appropriate, but 'blood magic the gay out of him' is a bit more of an inherency issue than 'blood magic him into bed with a woman.'

[d4eaming]

The way I saw it on my playthrough, the father's issue (and solution) was more the inherent sexuallity side of things. Dorian wouldn't pretend, and I think that was totally fine and appropriate, but 'blood magic the gay out of him' is a bit more of an inherency issue than 'blood magic him into bed with a woman.'

Dorian only says his father tried to "change" him, he doesn't specify what that change was. Could have been sexuality, could have been suggestibility, it could have been placidity, and so on. I see it as more attempting to make him willing to do it, not to change him from gay to straight (mind control versus outright changing his orientation).

[Dean_the_Young]

Dorian only says his father tried to "change" him, he doesn't specify what that change was. Could have been sexuality, could have been suggestibility, it could have been placidity, and so on. I see it as more attempting to make him willing to do it, not to change him from gay to straight (mind control versus outright changing his orientation).

 

I took it the other way. Short-term blood magic mind control has never been presented as risking permanent damage, so whatever it was exactly was probably intended to be permanent- and if Dorian's father was going to do something permanent that might destroy his son, I doubted it would be to 'possibly' change Dorian's mind or feelings on the matter.

 

If Dorian's father was really just trying to blood magic Dorian into having a sham marriage with a male lover on the side, I'd agree with you. But I just don't see it that way, which leaves the unpleasant 'cure the gay' metaphor instead.

 

I don't intend to claim you are absolutely wrong, so I suppose I'll just respectfully disagree with your interpretation.

[TheJediSaint]

If Dorian's father was really just trying to blood magic Dorian into having a sham marriage with a male lover on the side, I'd agree with you. But I just don't see it that way, which leaves the unpleasant 'cure the gay' metaphor instead.

 

How is that a metaphor when it's pretty explicit that's exactly what Dorian's father tried to do.

[Dean_the_Young]

How is that a metaphor when it's pretty explicit that's exactly what Dorian's father tried to do.

 

Metaphor for the real-world conditioning programs and so-called 'therapy.'

[TheJediSaint]

Metaphor for the real-world conditioning programs and so-called 'therapy.'

At the risk of seeming pedantic, I think it was more of an allegory.

[Dean_the_Young]

At the risk of seeming pedantic, I think it was more of an allegory.

 

In the name of The Dean, I grant you pedantic absolution.

[TheJediSaint]

In the name of The Dean, I grant you pedantic absolution.

Yay?

[Dean_the_Young]

Yay?

 

Yay.

[Tielis]

I think this is a reasonable suggestion. Kudos.

 

I think the underlying premise of Dorian's delimma (the use of blood magic to threaten his sexuality and freedom) could have been addressed without resorting to a 'parent tries to cure the gay out of their kid' narrative. That struck me as reaching and a bit forced as an advocacy, because of the real world parallels, but changing the focus from 'I can't believe my child is gay' to the appearances-angle would have allowed for most of the same events without diminishing the delimma.

 

You wouldn't even need the wife angle- the idea of the father could still apply even if you just worked from the 'trying to secure the legacy with an heir' motivation.

 

I agree.  Not to downplay Dorian's issues at all, and I even hesitate to say this due to all the backlash I may receive, but, the game kind of makes it out that it's super horrible for a gay man to be pushed into an arranged marriage but it's not so bad for a woman.  (Anora comes to mind.)

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I agree.  Not to downplay Dorian's issues at all, and I even hesitate to say this due to all the backlash I may receive, but, the game kind of makes it out that it's super horrible for a gay man to be pushed into an arranged marriage but it's not so bad for a woman.  (Anora comes to mind.)

Can you direct me to where someone threatened to harm Anora if she didn't make a political marriage? Or even where she was unwilling to do so?

[Gaesesagai]

I agree.  Not to downplay Dorian's issues at all, and I even hesitate to say this due to all the backlash I may receive, but, the game kind of makes it out that it's super horrible for a gay man to be pushed into an arranged marriage but it's not so bad for a woman.  (Anora comes to mind.)

 

Ignoring facts because you are uncofortable with it. Brilliant. Also pulling fake facts out of a hat is another great way to assert one's intelligence. Nowhere in the game there's anything that does what you say it does. You should feel free to check the dialogues and ask someone to explain it to you if you have problems comprehending, before stating nonsense as fact.

[Ponku]

I think one of the main problems some people have is that they see Dragon Age as a game with medieval-like setting. That is not true. The techonlogical advancement in the game is similar to our technological advancement in middle ages. That is all, that is the only thing that makes the fantasy game medieval-like, that creators bring for players as something familiar. All other things in fantasy settings are too fluid and too many factors have gone into it to be exactly the same as our middle ages.

Ofcourse many factors influence technology too, but the main bulk of it (swords and armors) is put here as a base from which the whole world is created. There would be nothing unrealistic with anything else as long as it is reasonably explained. And sexuality in Thedas was reasonably explained by the creators.

[Dean_the_Young]

Can you direct me to where someone threatened to harm Anora if she didn't make a political marriage? Or even where she was unwilling to do so?

 

Could you point out where Tielis said anything about people threatening to harm Anora? Because what you quoted-

 

I agree.  Not to downplay Dorian's issues at all, and I even hesitate to say this due to all the backlash I may receive, but, the game kind of makes it out that it's super horrible for a gay man to be pushed into an arranged marriage but it's not so bad for a woman.  (Anora comes to mind.)

 

-doesn't claim that at all.

 

You could certainly quibble on her assessment of whether the game makes one to be horrible and the other not, but that would require you to acknowledge her actual points, rather than the ones your counter-argument would like her to have made.

 

For example- why not disagree with her on the grounds that the Anora subplot didn't claim that arranged marriage wasn't bad for a woman, but simply didn't address it as a theme at all? Then you could point out the distinction between 'it was not raised' and 'it was dismissed.' It might lead to a civil discussion about the implications or insinuations of 'not included' suggesting 'not controversial,' but that would be a way for her to shape and improve her expression of unease.

 

Ignoring facts because you are uncofortable with it. Brilliant. Also pulling fake facts out of a hat is another great way to assert one's intelligence. Nowhere in the game there's anything that does what you say it does. You should feel free to check the dialogues and ask someone to explain it to you if you have problems comprehending, before stating nonsense as fact.

 

This would be a tad more convincing were you to actually refer to her arguments or position, rather than railing against baseless assertions without, ironically, basing it on supporting arguments.

 

Instead, you really just vindicate her starting position of hesitance to engage.

[Ponku]

I think this is a reasonable suggestion. Kudos.

 

I think the underlying premise of Dorian's delimma (the use of blood magic to threaten his sexuality and freedom) could have been addressed without resorting to a 'parent tries to cure the gay out of their kid' narrative. That struck me as reaching and a bit forced as an advocacy, because of the real world parallels, but changing the focus from 'I can't believe my child is gay' to the appearances-angle would have allowed for most of the same events without diminishing the delimma.

 

You wouldn't even need the wife angle- the idea of the father could still apply even if you just worked from the 'trying to secure the legacy with an heir' motivation.

 

I very much support the writer's use of that narrative. It is an incredibly important issue that touch a lot of people and seeing it in game in serious manner was a good thing. To let people know that it is important, that others go through that kind of relations with abusive parents too. To let more people know that this issue exist and it is wrong.

I know some may say that game is no place to make statements like that, but the truth is games are a very big media and aknowledging issues like that is also spreading avareness and acceptance for the victims.

I personally appreciated the inclusion of that issue in Dragon Age very much.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Could you point out where Tielis said anything about people threatening to harm Anora? Because what you quoted-

 

 

-doesn't claim that at all.

 

You could certainly quibble on her assessment of whether the game makes one to be horrible and the other not, but that would require you to acknowledge her actual points, rather than the ones your counter-argument would like her to have made.

 

For example- why not disagree with her on the grounds that the Anora subplot didn't claim that arranged marriage wasn't bad for a woman, but simply didn't address it as a theme at all? Then you could point out the distinction between 'it was not raised' and 'it was dismissed.' It might lead to a civil discussion about the implications or insinuations of 'not included' suggesting 'not controversial,' but that would be a way for her to shape and improve her expression of unease.

 

 

This would be a tad more convincing were you to actually refer to her arguments or position, rather than railing against baseless assertions without, ironically, basing it on supporting arguments.

 

Instead, you really just vindicate her starting position of hesitance to engage.

She was comparing Dorian to Anora and implying that the difference between them is their gender and sexual orientation, I asked her to point out where the things that were awful in Dorian's situation were present in Anora's situation.

[Ponku]

I don't think that comparing Anora's and Dorian's pressure into marriage is the same, As far as i know Anora is bisexual so it isn't the same issue like with Dorian, who is homosexual, so arranged marriage is against his sexuality. Arranged marriages are bad all of them. But pushing Dorian into marraige was also against his nature, not only against his freedom. That is why his issue was more portrayed.

[Gaesesagai]

This would be a tad more convincing were you to actually refer to her arguments or position, rather than railing against baseless assertions without, ironically, basing it on supporting arguments.

 

Instead, you really just vindicate her starting position of hesitance to engage.

 

I did. It's right there in the text, which makes your post slightly awkward if not bizarre. Also, you're a public defender of sorts? If so, I hope he/she appreciates you.

My answer had another quality yours seems to be missing. It was on topic.

[errantknight]

Really if you want realism then are you also confused at women soldiers?

Hold on a minute... We do have women soldiers. Lots of them. Oh wait... I see what you did there. Sorry, too much christmas cheer, not enough coffee.