386 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

She was comparing Dorian to Anora and implying that the difference between them is their gender and sexual orientation,

 

See, this is where you messed up. She wasn't comparing the two as individuals, nor implying that the difference was sexual orientation. She was bringing up the handling of arranged marriage.

 

 

I asked her to point out where the things that were awful in Dorian's situation were present in Anora's situation.

 

 

No, you didn't. What you actually asked was-

 

 

Post by: You

 

Can you direct me to where someone threatened to harm Anora if she didn't make a political marriage? Or even where she was unwilling to do so?

 

Notice the differences- the direct reference to harm, the matter of Anora's willingness. Now, with your new one, you've added a third.

 

Except, and here's the thing- those are irrelevant to what was being raised. There was a single, specific issue of concern being raised, and that was the treatment (implicitly the thematic composition of) the question of arranged marriage. In Dorian's case, it was treated as a Very Bad Thing. Can you, in perfect honesty, claim the same in the case of Anora?

 

That is the only angle of concern raised- the post was not making an equivalence between the two.

 

(The answer to that question can still be 'no' without believing in an equivalence.)

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I don't think that comparing Anora's and Dorian's pressure into marriage is the same, As far as i know Anora is bisexual so it isn't the same issue like with Dorian, who is homosexual, so arranged marriage is against his sexuality. Arranged marriages are bad all of them. But pushing Dorian into marraige was also against his nature, not only against his freedom. That is why his issue was more portrayed.

More than that, Anora values her political ambitions above everything else. She might not want to marry Alistair, but her desire to be Queen trumps that. She's a willing participant, regardless. Dorian wasn't willing because he doesn't value the things that an arranged/sham marriage would give him.

[Dean_the_Young]

I did. It's right there in the text, which makes your post slightly awkward if not bizarre.

 

Lol.

 

 

Also, you're a public defender of sorts? If so, I hope he/she appreciates you.

 

Oh, hardly. I've been told I'm an utter *******, and I'm sure you could find some people around here to agree with that. I could even give you names to confirm, if you'd like.
 

I do what I like on BSN, when I like to, and one of the things I like to do is pick apart arguments or posts I find annoyingly weak.

 

My answer had another quality yours seems to be missing. It was on topic.

 

In so much that hyper-aggressive attacks on integrity and comprehension are on topic, sure. In so much that it addressed what they were trying to say, not so much.

 

I'm more of a passive-aggressive sort mysellf.

[Zered]

Writing stuff on sexuality in these forums is just like throwing a grenade into the toilet.

[Dean_the_Young]

I very much support the writer's use of that narrative. It is an incredibly important issue that touch a lot of people and seeing it in game in serious manner was a good thing. To let people know that it is important, that others go through that kind of relations with abusive parents too. To let more people know that this issue exist and it is wrong.

I know some may say that game is no place to make statements like that, but the truth is games are a very big media and aknowledging issues like that is also spreading avareness and acceptance for the victims.

I personally appreciated the inclusion of that issue in Dragon Age very much.

 

Cool beans. I am not the least bit put off that you enjoyed it.

 

I don't agree with your reasoning- I won't pretend otherwise, and I certainly don't consider Bioware to be moral authority figures- but it's a difference of 'what do I want out of this media' and 'what do I think entertainment media's role should be.'

[Dean_the_Young]

Writing stuff on sexuality in these forums is just like throwing a grenade into the toilet.

 

Fun?

[Gaesesagai]

Writing stuff on sexuality in these forums is just like throwing a grenade into the toilet.

 

When dealing with trolls or homophobes, yes. It's just best to add them to ignore and walk away.

But otherwise, hopefully some people actually read and think and maybe even change their mind a little bit. If nothing else, some posts are so out there it's worth taking the time to correct them, even if it's wasted on that particular person, someone else might see and take something from it.

[Lady Artifice]

I didn't feel it that way, in part because the role of children or the possibility of a discrete affair on the side were never really addressed. It was 'fix the gay for family honor,' full stop, rather than 'just sow the oats already.'

 

I can get why Dorian wouldn't even want that- and I don't think Dorian is the problem in any sense of this. But considering how Gaider has talked about how the issue with Tevinter is public homosexuality amongst the nobility, but other ways are accepted if kept discrete, the fact that so little attention was spent on that or the role of children rather than public shame of teh gay...

 

I see your point. Admittedly, this is open to interpretation, and the allegory is pretty noticeable, even if the in story situation is more nuanced than so many people suggest. There are so many dismissing Dorian's arc as a trite cliche, and I think they're coming to that conclusion without spending much time thinking about it. 

 

To only pay attention to the allegorical facets in this situation puts Dorian's integrity, which in my opinion is the most important bit of characterization about him, in a blind spot.

 

The dialogue establishes (once in the scene itself, and once in a possible conversation after the scene) that he could have kept up a pretense and his father would't have cared. I believe it was Dorian's choices and not his sexuality that made Halward feel compelled to act, and that this makes the situation that much more powerful. We lose that if all we can see is a typical cliche. 

[Dean_the_Young]

More than that, Anora values her political ambitions above everything else. She might not want to marry Alistair, but her desire to be Queen trumps that. She's a willing participant, regardless. Dorian wasn't willing because he doesn't value the things that an arranged/sham marriage would give him.

 

I think that's a perfectly valid consideration of the character differences between the two- but not so relevant to narrative themes about the subject. Whether Anora is willing to go along with an arranged marriage or not doesn't really touch on any greater premise of whether it's alright or not- any more (or less) than Dorian's refusal to go along is an inherent condemnation of it. If Dorian were willing to go along with it, what his father was prepared to do if he didn't wouldn't get any better on a moral level- it just wouldn't have happened.

 

Of course, I think that the surrounding narrative influences on these topics were pretty weak, at least vis-a-vis to the character-provided themes. No one other than Dorian really talks about him being pressured into a marriage. No one other than Anora discusses the subject of an arranged marriage. (Well, Alistair, but only to whine if he's forced into it.)

 

I don't think there was enough non-character viewpoints present to really say that the surrounding themes about either case.

[Zered]

Fun?

You, Sir have an interesting idea of ‘fun‘!

[Tielis]

Could you point out where Tielis said anything about people threatening to harm Anora? Because what you quoted-

 

 

-doesn't claim that at all.

 

You could certainly quibble on her assessment of whether the game makes one to be horrible and the other not, but that would require you to acknowledge her actual points, rather than the ones your counter-argument would like her to have made.

 

For example- why not disagree with her on the grounds that the Anora subplot didn't claim that arranged marriage wasn't bad for a woman, but simply didn't address it as a theme at all? Then you could point out the distinction between 'it was not raised' and 'it was dismissed.' It might lead to a civil discussion about the implications or insinuations of 'not included' suggesting 'not controversial,' but that would be a way for her to shape and improve her expression of unease.

 

 

This would be a tad more convincing were you to actually refer to her arguments or position, rather than railing against baseless assertions without, ironically, basing it on supporting arguments.

 

Instead, you really just vindicate her starting position of hesitance to engage.

 

Thank you.  As I said, it was just a very annoying poke to me that in the DA universe, they have gone leaps and bounds to accept homosexuality, but I get the feeling that full equality for women isn't quite there yet.

 

And no, I don't really want to discuss it, because the responses I've gotten are wholly as expected.  Even if no further discussion is wanted, I do hope that it does make some people think about it, regardless.

[Lady Artifice]

We're starting to touch upon raw nerves. People feel passionately, and sometimes very personally about this topic, with good reason.

 

We need to proceed with caution and choose our words as carefully as possible if we continue to discuss. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I see your point. Admittedly, this is open to interpretation, and the allegory is pretty noticeable, even if the in story situation is more nuanced than so many people suggest. There are so many dismissing Dorian's arc as a trite cliche, and I think they're coming to that conclusion without spending much time thinking about it. 

 

To only pay attention to the allegorical facets in this situation puts Dorian's integrity, which in my opinion is the most important bit of characterization about him, in a blind spot.

 

The dialogue establishes (once in the scene itself, and once in a possible conversation after the scene) that he could have kept up a pretense and his father would't have cared. I believe it was Dorian's choices and not his sexuality that made Halward feel compelled to act, and that this makes the situation that much more powerful. We lose that if all we can see is a typical cliche. 

 

Thank you for seeing my point, and I appreciate you eloquently expressing your own.

 

I didn't hear (or catch) the point about what his father was willing to overlook an affair when I played through it my first time, so even though I'd hardly die for this position I can sympathize with people who might have taken that impression. I still consider it a bit of a weak emphasis on that alternative, but- well, impressions and take-aways are highly subjective.

[OHB MajorV]

Thank you. As I said, it was just a very annoying poke to me that in the DA universe, they have gone leaps and bounds to accept homosexuality, but I get the feeling that full equality for women isn't quite there yet.

And no, I don't really want to discuss it, because the responses I've gotten are wholly as expected. Even if no further discussion is wanted, I do hope that it does make some people think about it, regardless.

Thread locked in less than 20 posts from here.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thank you.  As I said, it was just a very annoying poke to me that in the DA universe, they have gone leaps and bounds to accept homosexuality, but I get the feeling that full equality for women isn't quite there yet.

 

And no, I don't really want to discuss it, because the responses I've gotten are wholly as expected.  Even if no further discussion is wanted, I do hope that it does make some people think about it, regardless.

 

Better luck next time- trust me, it's all about the phrasing and not being drawn into strawmen.

 

And who knows? Maybe next time I'll be the ******* on the other side of the monitor.

[Ponku]

Thank you.  As I said, it was just a very annoying poke to me that in the DA universe, they have gone leaps and bounds to accept homosexuality, but I get the feeling that full equality for women isn't quite there yet.

 

And no, I don't really want to discuss it, because the responses I've gotten are wholly as expected.  Even if no further discussion is wanted, I do hope that it does make some people think about it, regardless.

 

But that is because those two were totally different matters, Dorian's pressure and Anora's pressure, And it have absolutely nothing to do with anyone's gender, but about sexuality. So comparing those two were very bad idea to raise your issue., and it discredited what you wanted to say.

[Gaesesagai]

Thank you.  As I said, it was just a very annoying poke to me that in the DA universe, they have gone leaps and bounds to accept homosexuality, but I get the feeling that full equality for women isn't quite there yet.

 

And no, I don't really want to discuss it, because the responses I've gotten are wholly as expected.  Even if no further discussion is wanted, I do hope that it does make some people think about it, regardless.

 

The "pope" is always female. There are plenty of strong female characters in leadership position, doing an amazing job at it (as opposed to being portrayed in a negative or stereotypical way), your inquisition has 3 women and 1 man at the top, the de facto leading council for it, plenty of characters in all DA series for that matter.

The only place where women seem to have any type of inequality is in Tevinter's Chantry...

But yes, do go on about it, and leave with a comment that implies, oh so subtley, that you are a victim somehow and women are treated badly in DA universe, contrary to all evidence.

Being asked to clarify what you so obviously implied in you earlier post doesn't mean you're a victim, it only means someone was calling you out on it.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Thank you.  As I said, it was just a very annoying poke to me that in the DA universe, they have gone leaps and bounds to accept homosexuality, but I get the feeling that full equality for women isn't quite there yet.

 

And no, I don't really want to discuss it, because the responses I've gotten are wholly as expected.  Even if no further discussion is wanted, I do hope that it does make some people think about it, regardless.

I would genuinely like to know why you don't think women are equal in Thedas, especially since you keep comparing it to how queer people are treated in Thedas.

[Ponku]

 We lose that if all we can see is a typical cliche. 

Well, then don't look at it as typical cliche.

[Lady Artifice]

Thank you for seeing my point, and I appreciate you eloquently expressing your own.

 

I didn't hear (or catch) the point about what his father was willing to overlook an affair when I played through it my first time, so even though I'd hardly die for this position I can sympathize with people who might have taken that impression. I still consider it a bit of a weak emphasis on that alternative, but- well, impressions and take-aways are highly subjective.

 

Hugely different interpretations of DA character story lines. C'est la vie! 

 

To clarify, he didn't explicitly say "My father would have overlooked it".

 

I'm inferring that from dialogue lines of Dorian's that suggest it was (paraphrased) "because I wouldn't live a lie, and marry some poor girl only for us to grow to hate each other". I know my interpretation is my own, but he does say something like this more than once. 

[Lady Artifice]

Well, then don't look at it as typical cliche.

 

I don't. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I would genuinely like to know why you don't think women are equal in Thedas, especially since you keep comparing it to how queer people are treated in Thedas.

 

She has been dropping out-of-universe and talking about how we, the real world, (or more accurately they, the writers) are handling subjects unevenly.

 

The gender dynamic at hand is how the devs handled a subject (arranged marriage) when pushed on a man (Dorian, and it was a Really Bad Thing) versus a woman (Anora, where it was a narrative non-issue). The conclusion, through a gender-based frame of reference, will note that dramatic tools and audience sympathy were clearly intended to support the male... but pretty much non-existent for the female.

 

I don't think that's the best frame of reference to use here- you could also look at it through a lens of homosexuality (arranged marriage is bad for homosexual in Dragon Age, non-controversial for heterosexual), a consent-based frame of reference (arranged marriage is bad if you're against it, but uncontroversial if you're willing), or a character-centric frame of reference (Dorian was personally against it, Anora was ambivalent). But that sort of gender-based analysis is something plenty of people use when evaluating fiction or the real world.

 

(I don't subscribe to that model of thinking, but it is common enough and influential enough that I consider it worth having a handle on that sort of frame of reference.)

[errantknight]

Fun?

In the end, expensive and problematic, lol.

[Dean_the_Young]

In the end, expensive and problematic, lol.

 

A good deal cheaper than booze, hookers, or blackjack.

[CuriousArtemis]

I don't think that comparing Anora's and Dorian's pressure into marriage is the same, As far as i know Anora is bisexual so it isn't the same issue like with Dorian, who is homosexual, so arranged marriage is against his sexuality. Arranged marriages are bad all of them. But pushing Dorian into marraige was also against his nature, not only against his freedom. That is why his issue was more portrayed.

 

Ohhh I don't know how much I can agree with this. I am biologically female and I like guys, but honestly if someone were pressuring me into an arranged marriage, I would be more scared and horrified if my partner were a male than a female. I would say that is mostly due to gender politics.

 

Dorian was probably never afraid of his potential spouse or felt like his free will or power were in danger. Yes, it would have been not pleasant to be married to someone he's not attracted to and be expected to sleep with her until she got pregnant. But honestly, a woman could potentially feel the exact same thing.

 

I think the issue with Dorian's story is the father. The father wanted to change his sexuality, and that's the emotional gut puncher.

 

Not wanting to marry a woman because he's gay is no more heart wrenching than a story about a woman being forced to marry a man, in my opinion