440 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtSteel91]

Um, I think I probably shouldn't go into this discussion but this is a very bad argument. Wynne is much older in DAO and she kicks some serious butt, so does Loghain and he has no advantage of a spirit inside him but a taint that is killing him. Age in not an issue in DA universe.

 

Then disregard that point and consider that, despite some opposition to posters here, she is still the leader of the Mages and is managing them like Cullen and Leliana. Do you notice that Ser Barris doesn't get any War Table missions after he's promoted?

[eyezonlyii]

I just started my pro-templar play through and so far I do like it more than the mages. The mission itself was more interesting and as people said before, all the templars that were left are the morally string once AND the youngest if the order. As Barris said, they were cut off from the top, so that the less experienced would just fall in line, but even then, they stood for what the order meant.
The mages on the other hand, folded when the whisper of a possibility if a Templar attack was mentioned. But really though? Would the Templars really be so stupid as to march on Redcliffe, knowing that not only are there mages, but Redcliffe soldiers and the fact that this would be seen as an act of war by the monarch in charge?
It wouldn't be so bad, I guess if the mages had a version of Ser Barris, who stood against what was going on. Actually would have been a great place to have Conner.

[Ascendra]

Then disregard that point and consider that, despite some opposition to posters here, she is still the leader of the Mages and is managing them like Cullen and Leliana. Do you notice that Ser Barris doesn't get any War Table missions after he's promoted?

 

Barris' whole point of War Table missions is to restore Templars' good name, to earn back trust of the people and to show he is capable of leading Templars, he does not really need missions to prove anything after he gets promoted, he has already proven that he deserves the title by doing a lot of good. Fiona is already a leader and a crappy one at that, her previous mistakes also dont show her in a very good light. 

 

While I do agree with you that situations for Mages and Templars are similar and both have the Inquisitor to the rescue, its the details that got me on Templars side.

The Mages that went before "rrrawwrr, freedom!" are now covering in Redcliff and hiding behind their incompetent leader. They do not object. They whine, while Templars fight the corruption. They submit consciously to slavery while Templars die rather then become monsters. There is a reason we do not see Barris when Haven gets attacked but we see Fiona. Because Barris died fighting and Fiona just submitted. And then after the quests finish from mages we hear "but its time magic, we were forced!" and from templars we hear "yeah, it was our fault, we screwed up, but we are willing to make it better".

 

This isn't very eloquent reasoning but in a nutshell its pretty much what I thought.

 

Edit: Personally, (as much as I dislike Fiona) I thought it was a horrible way to kill her off as a mini-boss in the first part of the game, I actually felt sorry for her character. I thought she was built for something grander. Even Samson got more screen-time than her, and he was a hopeless lyrium addict. 

[sylvanaerie]

Barris' whole point of War Table missions is to restore Templars' good name, to earn back trust of the people and to show he is capable of leading Templars, he does not really need missions to prove anything after he gets promoted, he has already proven that he deserves the title by doing a lot of good. Fiona is already a leader and a crappy one at that, her previous mistakes also dont show her in a very good light. 

 

While I do agree with you that situations for Mages and Templars are similar and both have the Inquisitor to the rescue, its the details that got me on Templars side.

The Mages that went before "rrrawwrr, freedom!" are now covering in Redcliff and hiding behind their incompetent leader. They do not object. They whine, while Templars fight the corruption. They submit consciously to slavery while Templars die rather then become monsters. There is a reason we do not see Barris when Haven gets attacked but we see Fiona. Because Barris died fighting and Fiona just submitted. And then after the quests finish from mages we hear "but its time magic, we were forced!" and from templars we hear "yeah, it was our fault, we screwed up, but we are willing to make it better".

 

This isn't very eloquent reasoning but in a nutshell its pretty much what I thought.

 

I'm going to try templars this run.  I don't know.  I just don't like the idea of the mage children being killed.  

 

At least I'll get to kill Fiona this time, but it's small consolation.

[SgtSteel91]

Barris' whole point of War Table missions is to restore Templars' good name, to earn back trust of the people and to show he is capable of leading Templars, he does not really need missions to prove anything after he gets promoted, he has already proven that he deserves the title by doing a lot of good. Fiona is already a leader and a crappy one at that, her previous mistakes also dont show her in a very good light. 

 

While I do agree with you that situations for Mages and Templars are similar and both have the Inquisitor to the rescue, its the details that got me on Templars side.

The Mages that went before "rrrawwrr, freedom!" are now covering in Redcliff and hiding behind their incompetent leader. They do not object. They whine, while Templars fight the corruption. They submit consciously to slavery while Templars die rather then become monsters. There is a reason we do not see Barris when Haven gets attacked but we see Fiona. Because Barris died fighting and Fiona just submitted. And then after the quests finish from mages we hear "but its time magic, we were forced!" and from templars we hear "yeah, it was our fault, we screwed up, but we are willing to make it better".

 

This isn't very eloquent reasoning but in a nutshell its pretty much what I thought.

 

The Mages don't fight back because they think Alexius was helping them. When he lets slip that he intends for Fiona's Mages to be fodder fighting Qunari, she immediately turns against him. We don't get a fight in the halls of Redcliff with the Mages because by the time Alexius shows he's evil, you get sent into the future. Then when you get out of that, he surrenders cause his entire plan was to get close enough to the Mages to brainwash them and he blew it when he was bragging in front of Fiona.

[herkles]

I would have liked to have a leader better then fiona, who would explain or SHOW what free mages would do that would help earn people's trust.

 

Ser barris, defends mages from mobs, protects mages who just want to be left alone and fights off mages that become abominations and start attacking a city with demons. the mages need a ser barris equivilent.

[Ascendra]

I'm going to try templars this run.  I don't know.  I just don't like the idea of the mage children being killed.  

 

At least I'll get to kill Fiona this time, but it's small consolation.

 

Eh, its really an underwhelming battle which then gets easily overshadowed by Cory, but it does give some satisfaction true.

 

Give the Templars a try, I don't think you will be disappointed, they are much more honorable in this game.

[Ascendra]

The Mages don't fight back because they think Alexius was helping them. When he lets slip that he intends for Fiona's Mages to be fodder fighting Qunari, she immediately turns against him. We don't get a fight in the halls of Redcliff with the Mages because by the time Alexius shows he's evil, you get sent into the future. Then when you get out of that, he surrenders cause his entire plan was to get close enough to the Mages to brainwash them and he blew it when he was bragging in front of Fiona.

 

Well, we are talking about Tevinter here, they aren't known for helping others. The first alarm bell should have been illegally kicking local Bann out of his own lands. I see your arguments, I really do, I just call their behavior idiotic because the signs were literally hitting the mages on their heads. Arguably Templars are the same, but at least they died fighting while mages complacently went along with Alexius plan, which we later see at Haven's battle.

[Ashagar]

The Mages don't fight back because they think Alexius was helping them. When he lets slip that he intends for Fiona's Mages to be fodder fighting Qunari, she immediately turns against him. We don't get a fight in the halls of Redcliff with the Mages because by the time Alexius shows he's evil, you get sent into the future. Then when you get out of that, he surrenders cause his entire plan was to get close enough to the Mages to brainwash them and he blew it when he was bragging in front of Fiona.

 

And what's their excuse for what happened to the tranquil, all those skulls that are used to find shards were made from the tranquil at Redcliff as you find out in a locked hut in Redcliff village. I find it very hard to believe none of them knew what was going on. Its one of those things I wish we could have investigated further to find out who in the rebel mages were involved.
 

[SgtSteel91]

Well, we are talking about Tevinter here, they aren't known for helping others. The first alarm bell should have been illegally kicking local Bann out of his own lands. I see your arguments, I really do, I just call their behavior idiotic because the signs were literally hitting the mages on their heads. Arguably Templars are the same, but at least they died fighting while mages complacently went along with Alexius plan, which we later see at Haven's battle.

 

How do you know Mages didn't die fighting the Venatori? How do you know Fiona tired to fight back but was overpowered and brainwashed?

[SgtSteel91]

And what's their excuse for what happened to the tranquil, all those skulls that are used to find shards were made from the tranquil at Redcliff as you find out in a locked hut in Redcliff village. I find it very hard to believe none of them knew what was going on. Its one of those things I wish we could have investigated further to find out who in the rebel mages were involved.
 

 

Venatori masquerading as Rebel Mages? Seems like a logical reason.

[SgtSteel91]

Well, we are talking about Tevinter here, they aren't known for helping others. The first alarm bell should have been illegally kicking local Bann out of his own lands. I see your arguments, I really do, I just call their behavior idiotic because the signs were literally hitting the mages on their heads. Arguably Templars are the same, but at least they died fighting while mages complacently went along with Alexius plan, which we later see at Haven's battle.

 

Dorian offers to help. Are you going to turn him down cause he's from Tevinter? The Qunari offer an alliance. Are you going to turn it down cause of their practices? Fiona knows it's a bad deal, but to her it's her only choice if wants to protect her people (it isn't, and she doesn't know that cause she's being manipulated by forces she cannot hope to defend against).

[SgtSteel91]

And that's the issue. Is that the mages have all of these mitigating factors for why that turned out the way it did, but at no point do they (meaning Fiona) ever take responsibility. It's always, "But we were pressed! And desperate! And...and..." While causing all sorts of problems, seiging Redcliffe, and allying with tevinter. However the Templars, even as devastated and green as they are (due to everyone higher up being corrupted) realize their mistakes, and want a chance to price they can be trusted again. The mages just come along because you're "better than the alternative".

 

But you were their first option. Were you paying attention in Val Royexu? When you meet Fiona again in Redcliff? They wanted to ally with you and don't even remember it because of Time Magic. They have every reason to say "we were manipulated, it's not our fault." They had no hope of defying the Venatori when they had Time Travel and the ability to redo their mistakes until they got what they want. The Templars are trained to fight demons, they should have known that their leader was actually a demon in disguise.

[eyezonlyii]

Double post

[Ascendra]

How do you know Mages didn't die fighting the Venatori? How do you know Fiona tired to fight back but was overpowered and brainwashed?

 

I dont recall Alexius having any brainwashing tools. The only thing he had was time magic. But was very dangerous and very unpredictable and I gathered was used only once by Alexius to get to Fiona ahead of you and cement the alliance, hence Fiona acting weirdly when you meet her in Haven. The second and more powerful time magic attempt actually went wrong and sent Quizzy into the future. So I gathered Fiona not brainwashed, but convinced, out of hopelessness probably but also out of stupidity and shortsightedness. And then later the mages just went along with slavery like cattle. Their leader made a mistake, but they obeyed. They all were in their right minds and they knew what awaited them, and the only thing they did was whine to Fiona about it. The Templars do have an actual brain-washing tool which is red lyrium.

[SgtSteel91]

I dont recall Alexius having any brainwashing tools. The only thing he had was time magic. But was very dangerous and very unpredictable and I gathered was used only once by Alexius to get to Fiona ahead of you and cement the alliance, hence Fiona acting weirdly when you meet her in Haven. The second and more powerful time magic attempt actually went wrong and sent Quizzy into the future. So I gathered Fiona not brainwashed, but convinced, out of hopelessness probably but also out of stupidity and shortsightedness. And then later the mages just went along with slavery like cattle. Their leader made a mistake, but they obeyed. They all were in their right minds and they knew what awaited them, and the only thing they did was whine to Fiona about it. The Templars do have an actual brain-washing tool which is red lyrium.

 

Fiona breaks off her alliance with Alexius when he says he wants her Mages to fight Qunari. Do you really think she would agree to fight the Inquisition in her right mind? Add to that there's a Codex that explains that the Venatori plans to brainwash the Mages at Redcliff to serve Corypheus.

[Ascendra]

Dorian offers to help. Are you going to turn him down cause he's from Tevinter? The Qunari offer an alliance. Are you going to turn it down cause of their practices? Fiona knows it's a bad deal, but to her it's her only choice if wants to protect her people (it isn't, and she doesn't know that cause she's being manipulated by forces she cannot hope to defend against).

 

um, because Dorian is explicitly working against Tevinter and tells you about it? and Dorian's situation stems from Alexius being in Ferelden in the first place? If Alexius wasn't there Dorian wouldn't be either.

Qunari are a different case. But I did refuse their alliance because I do not trust them. 

 

The whole point about Alexius is that he appeared suddenly out of nowhere in the middle of Ferelden at the right time and moment and offered 'help', anyone would get suspicious. And kicked the local bann out of his home.

 

 

Fiona breaks off her alliance with Alexius when he says he wants her Mages to fight Qunari. Do you really think she would agree to fight the Inquisition in her right mind? Add to that there's a Codex that explains that the Venatori plans to brainwash the Mages at Redcliff to serve Corypheus.

 

She only breaks it if you are there, because she already has you to defend them. If you are not there, the mages complacently submit. While the Templars die. Thats the point.

 

 

Again, Fiona is manipulated verbally and not by some special tool. I'm saying that I find her reasons idiotic and unforgivable. You are saying her reasons have merit which is perfectly fine. But I doubt we are going to convince each other otherwise.

 

Edit: haven't read the codex so maybe you are right, maybe they were brainwashed. I still find her idiotic though.

[Livi14]

I think both missions are excellent (I only watched the templar path on youtube), but there's absolutely nothing the templars could do that would ever make me side with them.

[SgtSteel91]

 

Again, Fiona is manipulated verbally and not by some special tool. I'm saying that I find her reasons idiotic and unforgivable. You are saying her reasons have merit which is perfectly fine. But I doubt we are going to convince each other otherwise.

 

Edit: haven't read the codex so maybe you are right, maybe they were brainwashed. I still find her idiotic though.

 

Fair enough  . I also find Fiona more compelling with her immunity to the Blight and her history with so many of the Dragon Age characters. I feel like Ser Barris is redundant as we already have Cullen as the Good Templar. And I feel both sides are good missions and stories in their own way and allying or conscripting them can be equally considered a good choice for all kinds of people.

[eyezonlyii]

But you were their first option. Were you paying attention in Val Royexu? When you meet Fiona again in Redcliff? They wanted to ally with you and don't even remember it because of Time Magic. They have every reason to say "we were manipulated, it's not our fault." They had no hope of defying the Venatori when they had Time Travel and the ability to redo their mistakes until they got what they want. The Templars are trained to fight demons, they should have known that their leader was actually a demon in disguise.

Actually yes I was paying attention. The question is were YOU paying attention when whatever monarch is in charge, tells you that they offered support and refuge. Meaning they were under defense of Ferelden. So no, the mage had no reason to believe a Templar attack would succeed. I mean did they think Eamon and Alistair/Anora would just let a Templar army march in?

[Livi14]

Actually yes I was paying attention. The question is were YOU paying attention when whatever monarch is in charge, tells you that they offered support and refuge. Meaning they were under defense of Ferelden. So no, the mage had no reason to believe a Templar attack would succeed. I mean did they think Eamon and Alistair/Anora would just let a Templar army march in?

The templars did attack Redcliff before Alexius arrived. There are NPCs in the village who talk about it.

[Ashagar]

Or at least they belived the Templars attacked either that or they are just saying that so the tevintor don't turn them out like the Arl, his men and any villagers they felt were unneeded into a area where mad mages and rouge Templars are fighting each other and everyone else.

[TheodoricFriede]

I think in this game, more than any other Dragon Age game, it really is an equal choice in terms of quality. Ultimately its whatever the player prefers.

 

I prefer the mages.

[Ascendra]

The templars did attack Redcliff before Alexius arrived. There are NPCs in the village who talk about it.

 

Nah the Templars never attack because there was never going to be an attack. The villages talk about the imminence of attack but it never happens. It was a ruse by Alexius to get Fiona to side with them. After Val Royex both parties go to their respective strongholds and sit there waiting for you. The Templars go to Therinfall, they never leave until either you arrive or they get turned and part of them dies fighting.

 

Edit: unless you are talking about small attacks in Hinterlands where rogue groups of Templars and Mages attack each other and you. They attack everyone else as well and are irrelevant to the plot. The main force that Fiona fears is happily sitting in Therinfall and waiting for Quizzy to arrive.

[eyezonlyii]

The templars did attack Redcliff before Alexius arrived. There are NPCs in the village who talk about it.

I must have missed that convo. And in that case, I am wrong. However, the fact that gonna was surprised at the fact that every mage would be required to fight for ten years means she didn't ask about the fine print off the arrangement.