440 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

I dunno, if I sent someone into the future and they pop back to the present covered in blood and demon gibs, I'd reconsider my current course of action.

Besides which, Alexius is pretty defeated already. He's only working with Corypheus in the hope that, with his resources, he'll be able to rewind time so his wife and son never get attacked by darkspawn. If that's doomed to failure, then what reason does he have to keep fighting the inquisition?

 

For all he knows, you could've just killed bandits that summoned a few demons, not the whole mess you fought in the future, unless he actually saw what. we did

[holdenagincourt]

I tend to agree with these points, except for the argument in favor of Champions of the Just over In Hushed Whispers. I felt the latter was just in a different league of storytelling; it really made me feel swept away and feel the weight of everything. Champions of the Just felt short, had an (admittedly brief) Fade sequence which is never going to be a crowd pleaser, and a final battle that felt kind of lame because it was just a much weaker version of an extremely strong multiplayer boss, with no relatability nor much characterization, who I've fought and defeated a hundred times. And I also don't feel Dorian carried In Hushed Whispers at all. Leliana and the prisoners did that, for me.

[Gothfather]

I disagree.

 

Your first meeting with Fiona is her inviting you to talk with her about an alliance in Redcliff. Everything after that was changed by the Venatori and their Time Magic. The Mages had no hope of resisting Alexius and the Venatori with their ability save scum until they got the right words and actions to all but force Fiona into thinking allying with them is her only choice. The Rebel Mages, including Fiona, don't like this decision but think it's either that or death because of Alexius' and his Venatori sleeper agents within the Rebellion manipulating them. And even then the Venatori's plan was to brainwash the Rebels into working for Corypheus.

 

It is exactly like the Templars, the Mages want to do good but are subverted by outside forces that will force them to serve the Big Bad or be killed without the Inquisition's help. And when you do ally with the Mages, nothing goes wrong. They help you, and in the best case scenario, rehabilitate their image and enjoy acceptance throughout Thedas.

 

Spoiler

But f*** it, I know I won't change your mind. I just get pissed off seeing these half-backed, knee-jerk victim blaming posts.  I wanted to get this off of my chest.

 

Victim blaming post? How are the mages' leadership victims?

 

Dorian states that the time magic used was used to get to the mages first before the Inquisition not for them to do "ground hog day" over and over until they get it "right." Fiona willingly and with total free will joins the Venetori. She allies with a foreign power, a heretic power and she isn't controlled. She willingly betrays the Ferelden leadership AFTER they were given sanctuary in a fortified location. To protect them from the very thing they feared a Templar attack. A legendary location for holding out against numerous sieges.  It wasn't exactly like the only support the mages were getting was from the venetori.

 

Fiona is a crap leader, she lead her people into bretraying the very people HELPING them. The mages were not lead astray because their leadership was "poisoned" with a corrupting substance that corrupted them in similar way as the blight, the mages were not lead astray because Fiona was replaced with an agent of cory. Nope the mages went because their leader was a moron and weak.

 

This is beside the point, even if Fiona was mind controlled with blood magic the mages go along with it. They are perfectly happy to do evil things without a purge being required. The Templars had to have their number purged, it happens if you side with them and it happens if you side with the mages (you read about it in a Chargers war table mission). This tells me that even with their leadership hijacked the Templars had too many in their number of "high moral character" for the entire order to be subverted so they killed those who would not yield. That doesn't happen in the mage side of things. You hear constant complaint about the direction taken by the mage leadership my mages in Redcliffe but there is no resistance offered by complaints. No group of mages standing up saying "i will not do this evil" and being purged. Nope.

 

I judge the mages by their actions which is why i sided with them in DA:O and DA2 but enough is enough. They have proven that they can't be trusted with freedom they can't be trusted to think of putting anyone else ahead of their own self interest, even ALLIES that offered them sanctuary in a fortified location get pushed aside as soon as a "better" offer comes along. You'd think "hey lets not betray the one nation that is granting us sanctuary to live and protection from attack" opinion would at least upset a significant portion of the mages so they'd splinter but NOPE they just "followed orders" of their leadership.

 

My support of a victim ends when they stab a third party in the back because a forth party offered them better protection from their enemy then the third party offered. You aren't the victim anymore when you do that you are a partner in crime now.

[frostajulie]

Not another thread about the morality of mages versus Templars - all my canon runs are pro-mage.

 

But I've done both pro-Templar and pro-Mage now, and I'm kind of glad I did the Templar run first.  I think I understand and appreciate the story better because of it.

 

The reasons:

• Nemesis: Samson had a one-game head start on Calpernia, so he should have had the advantage where this stuff is concerned.  But I didn't understand Samson's motives at all until he was giving testimony at his trial.  I found myself sympathizing with ex-slave Calpernia, to the point where my pro-Templar templar Trevelyan pardoned her to return to Tevinter and make it better.  When we last saw Samson he'd been sorely disillusioned with the mage cause, and now he was sided with the biggest-baddest mage of them all and his army of Tevinter cultists.
• Ally: Fiona was a known quantity too.  I liked her from The Calling, many hated her.  Her understated appearance in DAI didn't really change anyone's opinion of her.  Some of the things she was doing seemed hard to fathom too, and when you get her she just kind of hangs out in the library.  Ser Barris, meanwhile, has quickly become a fan favourite, and you can send him out on missions.
• Recruitment: The pro-Mage mission takes you into Redcliffe castle, which is a fairly standard dungeons in spite of the Fade rips.  Much of it is carried by Dorian's sparkling personality.  The central and interesting drama with Alexius and his son is not heavily developed.  It also introduced time travel, which is an element most fans seemed to react badly too.  The pro-Templar run was tense, exciting, and dramatic, and the dive into the Fade gave you insight into the darker side of Cassandra's character.  The Fade was a pretty safe place to bring players (safer than time travel) and the battle against the Envy demon was epic.
• Corypheus: When I first got to the forums, I was surprised to see how many felt Corypheus was a complete nonentity, a blank.  It took me awhile to realize most people had never set foot in the pro-Templar version of the Temple of Dumat, where you can find Corypheus's journals.  His agony over the silence of his old god.  His surprising respect for Calpernia, and his regret at using her for a vessel.  Suddenly this alien, monstrous villain had an emotional complexity.  The most interesting thing in the pro-mage run was a Tranquil who'd chosen to side with Samson of his own free will.

So am I way off on this...?  Irrespective of which choice is "right," does the Templar path make the better story in DAI?

Thank you for this insight into a protemplar run.  I never thought I would do a templar pro run until I read your account of things, I am hardcore promage but now I am really excited to try one.

[TudorWolf]

I preferred the mage side as a quest, personally, but the templars are by far the better faction to side with in terms of what you get out of it. Calpernia is much better than Samson from what I've seen so far, among other things

[moxiegraphix]

Victim blaming post? How are the mages' leadership victims?

 

Dorian states that the time magic used was used to get to the mages first before the Inquisition not for them to do "ground hog day" over and over until they get it "right." Fiona willingly and with total free will joins the Venetori. She allies with a foreign power, a heretic power and she isn't controlled. She willingly betrays the Ferelden leadership AFTER they were given sanctuary in a fortified location. To protect them from the very thing they feared a Templar attack. A legendary location for holding out against numerous sieges.  It wasn't exactly like the only support the mages were getting was from the venetori.

 

Fiona is a crap leader, she lead her people into bretraying the very people HELPING them. The mages were not lead astray because their leadership was "poisoned" with a corrupting substance that corrupted them in similar way as the blight, the mages were not lead astray because Fiona was replaced with an agent of cory. Nope the mages went because their leader was a moron and weak.

 

This is beside the point, even if Fiona was mind controlled with blood magic the mages go along with it. They are perfectly happy to do evil things without a purge being required. The Templars had to have their number purged, it happens if you side with them and it happens if you side with the mages (you read about it in a Chargers war table mission). This tells me that even with their leadership hijacked the Templars had too many in their number of "high moral character" for the entire order to be subverted so they killed those who would not yield. That doesn't happen in the mage side of things. You hear constant complaint about the direction taken by the mage leadership my mages in Redcliffe but there is no resistance offered by complaints. No group of mages standing up saying "i will not do this evil" and being purged. Nope.

 

I judge the mages by their actions which is why i sided with them in DA:O and DA2 but enough is enough. They have proven that they can't be trusted with freedom they can't be trusted to think of putting anyone else ahead of their own self interest, even ALLIES that offered them sanctuary in a fortified location get pushed aside as soon as a "better" offer comes along. You'd think "hey lets not betray the one nation that is granting us sanctuary to live and protection from attack" opinion would at least upset a significant portion of the mages so they'd splinter but NOPE they just "followed orders" of their leadership.

 

My support of a victim ends when they stab a third party in the back because a forth party offered them better protection from their enemy then the third party offered. You aren't the victim anymore when you do that you are a partner in crime now.

 

The couple people you talk to in the tavern after meeting Fiona, only a tranquil asks to join you. One mage mocks you and is derisive. Another hates what is happening but doesn't ask to join nor did I see an option to recruit him. Even Connor, who begs you to stop Fiona from doing this doesn't ask to go with the Inquisition, nor did there appear to be any option to offer him a place. Even before you choose mages or templars there ARE some mages with the Inquisition. I was kind of bummed I couldn't recruit or offer a place for those who said they didn't want to join, or that there wasn't some kind of war table mission later for those who wanted to join, who had run away or something.

 

This post summed up how I felt about it when choosing Templars (I've chosen mages too). I certainly don't see the mages as victims, at any point, they could have run. Or resisted. Even if there were Venatori prowling about, Redcliffe is a big place. Why not try to leave?

[thesuperdarkone2]

The couple people you talk to in the tavern after meeting Fiona, only a tranquil asks to join you. One mage mocks you and is derisive. Another hates what is happening but doesn't ask to join nor did I see an option to recruit him. Even Connor, who begs you to stop Fiona from doing this doesn't ask to go with the Inquisition, nor did there appear to be any option to offer him a place. Even before you choose mages or templars there ARE some mages with the Inquisition. I was kind of bummed I couldn't recruit or offer a place for those who said they didn't want to join, or that there wasn't some kind of war table mission later for those who wanted to join, who had run away or something.

 

This post summed up how I felt about it when choosing Templars (I've chosen mages too). I certainly don't see the mages as victims, at any point, they could have run. Or resisted. Even if there were Venatori prowling about, Redcliffe is a big place. Why not try to leave?

If you side with the Templars, one of Dorian's banters with I believe Iron Bull says that there were some mages who tried to escape but the Venatori killed them all. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. Don't forget the mage children. Funny how it seems pro-templar people never seem to have a problem condemning children to death or worse.

[moxiegraphix]

If you side with the Templars, one of Dorian's banters with I believe Iron Bull says that there were some mages who tried to escape but the Venatori killed them all. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. Don't forget the mage children. Funny how it seems pro-templar people never seem to have a problem condemning children to death or worse.

 

I think I just rolled my eyes so hard they rolled out of my head. I never said I was Pro Templar by the way. I play the game and make choices based on the character I'm playing at the time. So far I have conscripted the mages, made them allies, and made Templars allies (this play through i plan to dissolve the Templars but, hey, why don't you decide what my thoughts are for me like you already have). But the mages didn't exactly play it smart. Tossing hypothetical children at me ( won't somebody think about the childreeeeeeeen) in an effort to make me change my mind or to somehow invalidate my opinion was rather silly, though. You could have mentioned the banter without trying to toss a false guilt trip (over pixels) on top of it.

[MikaelNovasun]

Speaking of those who can't protect themselves, what did the Fiona and mage leadership do about the tranquil? Never acknowledge them or what the Venitori are doing to them? I only did the shards quest once on a completetionist play through. The thought of using the oclarum makes my inquisitors sick.

 

Fiona and the mage leadership fail on so many levels, if only you could ally with them and judge/remove her. I could see letting them form a college of magi if that was the case but her leading the mages, no thanks. The only thing she has done worthwhile is give birth to Alistair. Thank the maker she did not stick around and actually try and be a mother to him.

[Petrikles]

I find it hard to choose the "mage alliance mission". Here are my reasons, purely non-pro-Templar, ex-ante, in-game:

 

- We have an obviously brainwashed leader of the Templars; needs immediate follow up.

- A powerful potentially hostile force in the Inquisition`s back is not good. Mages rebel are just a splinter force compared to the organised Templars.

- Running to the rebel mages could seriously hurt the Inquisition´s reputation with the normal people. Showing Chantry loyalty by pursuing the Templar´s abandonment will probably be well received by people.

- With Vivienne, we are already allied to a small host of mages from the remaining court circle, their loyalty much more assured.

- Rebel mages sit idle in the Hinterlands and do not help the threatened people; a somewhat dubious party.

- Obvious trap when invited by the leader to Redcliffe instead of agreeing on an alliance "sur place" in Vale Royaux, when she is already there in person.

- Mages being prime suspect of opening the breach, thus a higher risk trying an alliance with them.

[Bigdoser]

Really? Most people complain you don't have a good reason to actually go after the templars while you have more reason to investigate the mages and the Tevinter nonsense. 

[ThreeF]

Really? Most people complain you don't have a good reason to actually go after the templars while you have more reason to investigate the mages and the Tevinter nonsense. 

 

Perhaps if you are roleplaying, otherwise yes the game itself doesn't give you enough reasons to go after Templar and favors the mage mission.

[Ashagar]

Its a matter of disagreement and to me even without roleplaying it there are things in Redcliff that to me would send me going for the Templars like the hut full of tranquil skulls or simply the presence of the Tevinter.

[Bigdoser]

Its a matter of disagreement and to me even without roleplaying it there are things in Redcliff that to me would send me going for the Templars like the hut full of tranquil skulls or simply the presence of the Tevinter.

When they clearly don't want anything to do with you and were not even interested in talking before. 

[ThreeF]

Its a matter of disagreement and to me even without roleplaying it there are things in Redcliff that to me would send me going for the Templars like the hut full of tranquil skulls or simply the presence of the Tevinter.

 

I have the issue with that scene too, but it's mostly about how you almost end up renting cabbages (also known as mages) from Alexius and be completely ok with that, with no other options provided.

 

If you talk to the two mages and the one tranguil in the tabern you will see that only the one mage is happy about the Tevinters.

 

Another thing that is maybe sometimes missed, is that Fiona originally actually approached you to negotiate, but  by the time to reach Redcliffe the timeline is already altered. So it's not like she didn't want to talk, she was eventually manipulated into the deal with Alexius who had all the time to do it.

 

To me if they had added a hook to Templar side right after you leave the Redcliffe (or even if you enter the Haven for the first time after the VR), maybe something very simple like a letter, the things would be more balanced. Without the hook the conversation at the war table when you choose the Templars is very off.

 

edit: also the mini boss fight against the mages is so anticlimactic, I almost missed that Fiona was actually there.

[Nen_Rx]

I've mostly chose Mages... but I have to say in my canon version of my Dragon Age (all three of them) I think I'll choose Templars. At the end of the day... even though it still bad... I feel for the greater good, Mages do need Templar oversight.

 

I try to get Cassandra as divine though so there can be some level of reform in the Chantry. Seems to be the best balance.

[Ryzaki]

Eh any mage children deaths that occured are on Fiona's head. She's the one who sold them into slavery. *skips*

[NaclynE]

Not another thread about the morality of mages versus Templars - all my canon runs are pro-mage.

 

But I've done both pro-Templar and pro-Mage now, and I'm kind of glad I did the Templar run first.  I think I understand and appreciate the story better because of it.

 

The reasons:

• Nemesis: Samson had a one-game head start on Calpernia, so he should have had the advantage where this stuff is concerned.  But I didn't understand Samson's motives at all until he was giving testimony at his trial.  I found myself sympathizing with ex-slave Calpernia, to the point where my pro-Templar templar Trevelyan pardoned her to return to Tevinter and make it better.  When we last saw Samson he'd been sorely disillusioned with the mage cause, and now he was sided with the biggest-baddest mage of them all and his army of Tevinter cultists.
• Ally: Fiona was a known quantity too.  I liked her from The Calling, many hated her.  Her understated appearance in DAI didn't really change anyone's opinion of her.  Some of the things she was doing seemed hard to fathom too, and when you get her she just kind of hangs out in the library.  Ser Barris, meanwhile, has quickly become a fan favourite, and you can send him out on missions.
• Recruitment: The pro-Mage mission takes you into Redcliffe castle, which is a fairly standard dungeons in spite of the Fade rips.  Much of it is carried by Dorian's sparkling personality.  The central and interesting drama with Alexius and his son is not heavily developed.  It also introduced time travel, which is an element most fans seemed to react badly too.  The pro-Templar run was tense, exciting, and dramatic, and the dive into the Fade gave you insight into the darker side of Cassandra's character.  The Fade was a pretty safe place to bring players (safer than time travel) and the battle against the Envy demon was epic.
• Corypheus: When I first got to the forums, I was surprised to see how many felt Corypheus was a complete nonentity, a blank.  It took me awhile to realize most people had never set foot in the pro-Templar version of the Temple of Dumat, where you can find Corypheus's journals.  His agony over the silence of his old god.  His surprising respect for Calpernia, and his regret at using her for a vessel.  Suddenly this alien, monstrous villain had an emotional complexity.  The most interesting thing in the pro-mage run was a Tranquil who'd chosen to side with Samson of his own free will.

So am I way off on this...?  Irrespective of which choice is "right," does the Templar path make the better story in DAI?

 

The whole Nemesis is new to me unless if you do templar it's the Venetori queen while mages it's Samson? As far as ally is concerned you are half right. If you play the mage storyline Fiona says it herself: "We met in Val Riyoux? Oh really. Honestly this is the first time we met (being in the Red Cliffe inn)". Then your Inquisitor retorts by saying "then who was it that I spoke with back in Val Riyoux then?" I believe it's Dorian that goes "A demon". In other words the "Fiona" that you fight in the templar storyline is actually a doppleganger. I think mage one is of the same way except it's somehow a copy of that african american templar guy I think. i know it wasn't the high templar guy you meet Val Riyoux because you still get a quest to fight if if need be. as far as "early ally" getting Dorian is a bit of a plus over Cole. I seem to be always happy taking Sera while feeling unsure about taking Cole since he's a dagger guy. I still am unsure about how or when to get my allies in the fade for the templar story because I always wind up stuck alone but surviving it without needing anyone until I exit.

 

I haven't gotten much different out of Corepheus yet other than I have noticed Solas is more of a story player in the mage storyline while Vivianne is unimportant (talks trash) while in the templar storyline Vivianne is a story player in the templar storyline while Solas is unimportant (talks trash).

[Barquiel]

I agree with your first point. Samson was ok, he shows how far the templars had fallen and the conversations with Cullen were interesting...but from what I've seen Calpurnia is way more compelling as a character. I don't care for Barris at all. I think Fiona has a much more interesting background, I prefer her as an ally. As for the missions, I think In Hushed Whispers is better because I like that it shows what happens to Thedas if Corypheus wins and the end is one the single most powerful scene in a DA game, imo. Corypheus...no arguing here. There is not much about him in the mage arc.

[Bluto Blutarskyx]

Which is more relevant to the story is subjective depending on the character you are role playing as.

[MikeJW]

If you side with the Templars, one of Dorian's banters with I believe Iron Bull says that there were some mages who tried to escape but the Venatori killed them all. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. Don't forget the mage children. Funny how it seems pro-templar people never seem to have a problem condemning children to death or worse.

 

Then this makes the mages seem even worse. What was Fionas mages doing while the Venatori were killing the mages who refused to become slaves? Besides, what authority does she have to sell anyone into slavery? Hey, youve just become a rebel fighting for your freedom...no, wait, your leader just sold all of you out and now your real slaves to a foreign power.

[Aramintai]

I don't understand how some of you people say that mages side is worse just because of what Fiona did. The point of both mages and templars missions was to save one of the factions from their own stupidity. Fiona's just one stupid mage who happened to be in charge, but most of the rebel mages were very displeased with her decision to side with Tevinter. Same goes for the templars - leaders (especially Lord Seeker) were to blame for both Envy demon and red lyrium, common templars were just following orders. Yea, it is unfortunate we cannot judge or kill Fiona, but the rest of the mages are not responsible for her actions. Also keep in mind that Alexius tricked mages into believing that the templars are coming to Redcliffe in force, so that's at least some justification for wanting a powerful ally to fend off their attack. I can't find any justification for what's been going on in the real Lord Seeker's head in Cassandra's quest.

It is unknown whether that was really Fiona in Val Royeax before time change, or a demon, but if you go to Redcliffe and see what's happening there it is very hard to justify going after the templars after that. There's an immediate threat to the mages in Redcliffe, but nothing really threatens templars that you may know about at that point. Lord Seeker taking away the remaining templars from the Chantry in Val Royeax? That's in line with what they've been doing since the Templar order along with the Seekers left the Chantry to fight mages.

So, for me the only way to justify going after the templars is by not going to Redcliffe at all. Metagaming aside, at that point nothing is known about the state of either faction and you're free to choose whichever you want to get. 

[MKein]

Can't say anything about long-term pro-templar plot since I only plan on taking templars' side during my next playthrough and I only tried the mission with demon of pride just to see it. But the mages' quest looks more epic - there you can see that you are truly the only hope for Thedas and it proves the importance of your mission. And in templars' mission the threat is demon!Inquisitor - so you can still think that if there is no demon in your body, the world still can do without you. You'll never know. Also I think Cole looks more impressive than Dorian when he comes to warn the Inquisitor. (though he also looks impressive when he appears on the table)

But I have to say templars quest is also good. It's just more centered on Inquisitor's mind.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Then this makes the mages seem even worse. What was Fionas mages doing while the Venatori were killing the mages who refused to become slaves? Besides, what authority does she have to sell anyone into slavery? Hey, youve just become a rebel fighting for your freedom...no, wait, your leader just sold all of you out and now your real slaves to a foreign power.

The mages were brainwashed

[MikeJW]

The mages were brainwashed

Considering how many mages openly complain about the deal I dont think so. Or maybe they were and its bad story telling. Wait, even they were brain washed its bad story telling because it removes any cupability from one of the factions.