440 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

I doubt that. The mage origin of DA:O shows an apprentice struggling to cast a basic barrier. They will probably be sold into slavery, but I can't think of any use they could have in battle.

 

Magical skill varies from person to person.  Connor managed to contact a demon and hold an entire castle/town in thrall.  The Mage Warden can be RP'ed as having arrived very young and be a 'prodigy' among her contemporaries--certainly she was viewed as exceptional and often called "Irving's star pupil".  The guy in the armoire is not very skilled, hence the wisdom of hiding instead of fighting.  The apprentice you mention was also an adult, so 1) can't be compared to a child, and 2) his skill was minor to start with.  

 

All I'm saying is that there is the potential for mages to be more useful than mundane kids who's only training up to that point has been 'their numbers and how to read/write'.  Templar recruits would be useless to Corypheus and his army, especially not being able to survive the rigor of red lyrium addiction (as old veterans had difficulty handling it from codex entries you can find in the game).

[Ryzaki]

Sorry, I can't get on the bandwagon that finds the murder/enslavement of children "amusing".  Fiona, yea, cause she's an idiot who led them down that path but the mages had children among them, and Connor is barely an adult.  At least all the templars are adults.

 

Yeah well I find this a video game where you regularly gore out people up the wazoo and most of the people you're traveling with have kill counts and recount fondly how they killed certain people laughing at pixel deaths because stupidity is good enough for me.

[Ryzaki]

Finally, somebody mentions that. Guess templar supporters don't care about harming children considering kids were definitely killed if you sided with the templars in the previous games.

 

Considering A. They're pixel children and B. My character didn't actually kill them him/her self who cares? Children die in this setting all the damn time.

 

Not to mention I have zero issue with killing Conner if it suits my character.

[keesio74]

Can you be pro-mage and even have an alliance (not conscription) with them but still at the end of it all rebuild the circle and templar order to some degree? Or are the Mages basically 100% free?

[Boost32]

Can you be pro-mage and even have an alliance (not conscription) with them but still at the end of it all rebuild the circle and templar order to some degree? Or are the Mages basically 100% free?

yes you can, but its much more difficult, because the allaince with the mages gives a lot of Divine points to Leliana

[keesio74]

yes you can, but its much more difficult, because the allaince with the mages gives a lot of Divine points to Leliana

 

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh... I see.... So the real deal is who is the Divine. Your choice to help a faction and to conscript or ally really impacts who becomes Divine and the Devine has their own ideas on what to do. Fascinating. I foolishly thought everything was in my hands (choice)

 

I assume I need Cassandra if I want any oversight of the Mages and conscripting Mages instead of allying with them helps here.

[LadyofClockwork7]

I'm very neutral towards the whole mage/templar conflict. In Origins, I saved the Circle from being annulled because it felt like the right thing to do; my warden didn't want to murder a bunch of potentially innocent people. I tried to stay neutral in DA2 with Orsino and Meredith, as both had their good and bad points; originally, again, I thought siding with the mages was the right thing to do, until I found out about Orsino's involvement with Quentin, then after some reflection I thought siding with Meredith was the way to go. When you think about it, Orsino got involved in Quentin's affair willingly, and while I doubt Meredith was all sunshine and rainbows before Bartrand sold her the idol/sword, I think her not being so heavily influenced by the red lyrium would've made her more sympathetic. I still wish there was an option to go "screw you all", give them the finger and walk off into the sunset to let Kirkwall burn.

 

On Inquisition - mages made their beds with the Tevinter magister, so they can have it, as far as I'm concerned. Templars' leader was under the influence of a demon, and I feel bad just leaving them to succumb to the corruption. I do disband them though and make them a part of the Inquisition, because of many reasons. But to answer the topic I do think siding with the templars makes a more interesting choice story-wise. I also like meeting Cole earlier and bonding with him; I think he's too awesome of a character to be introduced the way he is when you side with the mages.

 

Also - Calpernia > Samson as a villain. And Barris is awesome. That is all.

 

 

TL;DR: I think aiding the templars and then disbanding them is the way to go and makes for a more interesting choice story-wise.

[Broganisity]

 

-snippity snip-

I hate that I'm a Pro-Templar logically, but always sided with the Mages game-wise.

- Origins was the moral choice of saving innocent people, while still having the templars...in a way...why can't you send mages to fight the war and have templars fight while watching the mages?

 

- Didn't play DA2. Probably would be more able to go Pro Templar there, even with their crazy commander going crazy. Personally, I"m also on the Pro-Burning Kirkwall option.

- I chose Mages in DA:I only because allowing control of Redcliffe to a Venatori agent seems like a very bad idea...then I miss-clicked and freed those mofos..and was too stubborn to go back and fix that.

 

I like the introduction of Dorian more, and I feel like Cole's sudden appearance is more fitting for him. I like the thought of having the Venatori as Cory-bro's 'agents' or 'special forces', while the Red Templars are his army en masse...as to how there are that many darn templars I don't know but okay. The discussion of Samson is another thread in and of itself, but in short I find him simultaneously despicable and pitiable...and unfortunately beard-less.

 

Also Cassandra as a Divine after freeing the mages is a glorious thing indeed.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I hate that I'm a Pro-Templar logically, but always sided with the Mages game-wise.

- Origins was the moral choice of saving innocent people, while still having the templars...in a way...why can't you send mages to fight the war and have templars fight while watching the mages?

 

- Didn't play DA2. Probably would be more able to go Pro Templar there, even with their crazy commander going crazy. Personally, I"m also on the Pro-Burning Kirkwall option.

- I chose Mages in DA:I only because allowing control of Redcliffe to a Venatori agent seems like a very bad idea...then I miss-clicked and freed those mofos..and was too stubborn to go back and fix that.

 

I like the introduction of Dorian more, and I feel like Cole's sudden appearance is more fitting for him. I like the thought of having the Venatori as Cory-bro's 'agents' or 'special forces', while the Red Templars are his army en masse...as to how there are that many darn templars I don't know but okay. The discussion of Samson is another thread in and of itself, but in short I find him simultaneously despicable and pitiable...and unfortunately beard-less.

 

Also Cassandra as a Divine after freeing the mages is a glorious thing indeed.

Something tells me you wouldn't considering that the Templars there are the worst of the worst. For starters, one Templar called Ser Alrik calls for the Tranquil Solution, a plan to turn every mage in Thedas tranquil. He also illegally makes people tranquil and uses them for sex slaves. Another templar called Karras is a rapist and mage-hater. Don't forget how by the end, Meredith is willing to send death squads to kill NON-MAGES for things like feeding mages. 

[Cypher0020]

Well my human female mage choose the templars, just like my female elf mage

 

They can't logically go with Fiona, they just can't!

 

Heck, before you even get to the village to begin talks, Fiona went to the vints!!

[Gothfather]

Its a matter of disagreement and to me even without roleplaying it there are things in Redcliff that to me would send me going for the Templars like the hut full of tranquil skulls or simply the presence of the Tevinter.

That was my experience as well...

 

My first play through I was all set to do a "standard" pro-mage story arc, as I assumed that i would be pro-mage as I was in origins and DA2 based on the past two games. I expected more templar excesses with regards to the mages, which I found in spades in the hinterlands, but the things i found in redcliffe as you mentioned and the complete apathy towards actually standing up to what mages feel is wrong. Connor, a mage in the tavern, and a mage outside by the hero of fereldan statue, all voicing concern but refusing to actually take ACTION to do what was right. This made me say, 'you sided with a foreign power I strongly suspect was involved in something to do with the conclave. (and I was right) You have made your choice now to see if the Templars can be reasoned with.'

 

I also thought, still at this time, I can get my one off templar play through over and done with as I was sure that we would see examples of events that would strengthen my support of the mages. Nope, I found more atrocities by mages in the game, they attack the inquisition and the Templars work to actually HELP mages when they are innocent. I was surprised that I switched sides in DA:I, because it was not what I expected I would do when i first started making my character.

[The Baconer]

When you think about it, Orsino got involved in Quentin's affair willingly, and while I doubt Meredith was all sunshine and rainbows before Bartrand sold her the idol/sword, I think her not being so heavily influenced by the red lyrium would've made her more sympathetic.

 

The red Lyrium intensified what was already there. Meredith was a remarkably poor and mentally compromised leader all the way from Act 1.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The red Lyrium intensified what was already there. Meredith was a remarkably poor and mentally compromised leader all the way from Act 1.

This. Cullen confirms that Meredith made someone Tranquil simply for passing love notes. Don't forget how if you turn the Starkhaven mages over, she either executes them/ makes them tranquil at random. Meredith was terrible before red lyrium.

[Gothfather]

I don't understand how some of you people say that mages side is worse just because of what Fiona did. The point of both mages and templars missions was to save one of the factions from their own stupidity. Fiona's just one stupid mage who happened to be in charge, but most of the rebel mages were very displeased with her decision to side with Tevinter. Same goes for the templars - leaders (especially Lord Seeker) were to blame for both Envy demon and red lyrium, common templars were just following orders. Yea, it is unfortunate we cannot judge or kill Fiona, but the rest of the mages are not responsible for her actions. Also keep in mind that Alexius tricked mages into believing that the templars are coming to Redcliffe in force, so that's at least some justification for wanting a powerful ally to fend off their attack. I can't find any justification for what's been going on in the real Lord Seeker's head in Cassandra's quest.

It is unknown whether that was really Fiona in Val Royeax before time change, or a demon, but if you go to Redcliffe and see what's happening there it is very hard to justify going after the templars after that. There's an immediate threat to the mages in Redcliffe, but nothing really threatens templars that you may know about at that point. Lord Seeker taking away the remaining templars from the Chantry in Val Royeax? That's in line with what they've been doing since the Templar order along with the Seekers left the Chantry to fight mages.

So, for me the only way to justify going after the templars is by not going to Redcliffe at all. Metagaming aside, at that point nothing is known about the state of either faction and you're free to choose whichever you want to get. 

 

 

Except the "common templars" who where "just following orders" start to push back on the direction and choice made, so much so they have to be PURGED. By any rational expectation of what to expect by soldiers who realize their leadership is going astray the common templars take. They push back on their leadership first to make then rethink things and if they don't, you can surmise that they would have rebelled. How do we know this? because the corrupted leadership of the red templars know their men and they know that they have to be purged because they wont "just fallow orders."

 

There is no immediate threat to the mages as you imply even just looking at things from the mage perspective. They already HAVE an alley, one willing to give them a defensible stronghold, that is legendary in its strength. This is no token rundown keep, this is a real defensible location and any attack on it would mean an attack on the nation of Fereldan. Which would strengthen the alliance the mages already have.

 

The rest of the mages are responsible for their INACTION and refusal to stake a stand when they KNOW siding with a heretical and foreign nation is wrong. There is no mage purge there is no mage resistance to the actions of their leadership, they are the ones who just follow orders. Their tranquil population is murdered under their noses, they do nothing, they have to be the ones putting up the ocularium because venatori soldiers or mages wondering around ALL of Ferelden just isn't possible without someone noticing, but a bunch of mages that have leave to be in your nation would be able to move about largely unnoticed. This means that while they MIGHT not have known that those skulls were their own tranquil they sure as frak knew they were SOMEONES' Skulls, ergo someone had to have died for all those posts to be erected. Is that enough for them to take a stand against the venatori? Nope. They just QQ about how bad their leaders are but still support them enough jump right off the moral high ground into evil.

 

As I said before I stopped viewing the mages as victims when they stab their alley in the back, doing this makes them a partner in crime not an innocent.

[SgtSteel91]

 There's an immediate threat to the mages in Redcliffe, but nothing really threatens templars that you may know about at that point. Lord Seeker taking away the remaining templars from the Chantry in Val Royeax? That's in line with what they've been doing since the Templar order along with the Seekers left the Chantry to fight mages.

So, for me the only way to justify going after the templars is by not going to Redcliffe at all. Metagaming aside, at that point nothing is known about the state of either faction and you're free to choose whichever you want to get. 

 

It's also a threat to you, after talking with Dorian. Alexius' whole time travel deal and hijacking the Mages was to get to you. You take a big risk leaving the Venatori free to take the rebel mages and with you as their target.

[Gothfather]

Well let's see what each side does better than the other:

 

/snip

 

PRO-MAGE:

*The set-up for the next portion of the game makes TONS more sense here, where you see the future and can clearly ascertain the countermeasures you'll need against Corypheus' plot (saving Celene from assassination, and putting a stop to Alexius' plans in the present)

 

/snip

 

Sooooo, this is a lame answer, but since we're at 5-5, I'd say that both sides are equally good for their own reasons. If I had to summarize why, I'd say the Templar run makes for a more coherent story, whereas the Mage run leads to richer individual character experiences.

 

I utterly disagree with your first pro mage point. Seeing plans and papers about the assassination of Celene was far better a set up than timey wimey hand waving. The observations in the fade give you a great way to see the consequences of the enemy's future plans without "jumping the shark." You see a direct consequence of Celene's death and the warden's corruption a long with the consequences of the corruption of the Inquisition. Its all done within the established lore of the setting and doesn't require the introduction of "new magic" to explain it.

 

Maybe you missed the room or item where you find the papers about her planned assassination in the templar quest but I was fully invested in stopping this because of the experience of the Fade and what I found in the "real" world about their planned assassination. I did not find the time travel devise well executed because it took me out of the story, it broke my immersion as i just sighed at the over used tired trope.

[Gothfather]

Both sides didn't have the best leaders, however the templars had far more bad rank and file troops than did the mages. They went on ethnic cleansing rampages for months...following bad order after bad order and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry (and all this happened before the red lyrium thing). I have some respect for templars who left the order, like Lysette or Rylen. The rest got what they deserved.

 

 

Really/ just really? Did you actually DO the quests in the hinterlands and storm coast?

 

1) You get apostates that ritually murder people in their basement (storm coasts)

2) You get people who really don't have the ability to stop demons from possessing them (grand mother's cabin hinterlands) seems that isn't propaganda but a real danger not something invented to keep mages down.

3) A bunch of you strike out to become as gods according to a note in the hinterlands (the apostates in the hinterlands)

4) Ocularum skulls, when you find them in redcliffe there is a note about how they are killing tranquil to make them. Who is doing it? It can't be venetori putting them up in the hinterlands as their number are not high enough to put them all over ferelden yet And if trevinter mages are doing this it would be noticed, a bunch of trevinter soldiers or mages putting put these post all over ferelden would cause a reaction. yet free mages that have been given leave to stay in your country COULD move around relatively unnoticed putting up the Ocularum. Even if the mages don't know it is tranquil being killed (which I highly doubt as that many tranquil that go missing from your number is going to be noticed) you are putting Human/elf skulls on posts that means SOMEONE had to die. But no need to take a moral stand?

5) So many mages refused to stand up when they KNOW siding with trevinter is the wrong course of action. Its all 'well my leaders said we should do something i know is wrong so I am just going to do it.'

6) You encounter a mage summoning demons in a cave in the hinterlands

 

Here is just a list of what the mage rank and file do in DA:I no other sources just this one game. And there is a bunch of things the templar's do as well

 

1)Like kill a guy for using a shovel

2) Attack villagers for trading with mages

3) Attack a mage for having a picnic with an inquisition scout

4) Trap mages inside a building a burn them.

 

Yet these crimes as smaller scale than the mage crimes and there is SERIOUS push back by the Templars against the excesses. They try to co-op the templars and fail, the result is a purge which is bad enough that they start to create red templars outside the order. This happen regardless of what side you pick. There is no mage purge, they don't stand up to their leadership. The templars make bad choices and they are led astray but a significant enough portion of their rank and file refuse to continue slide down that slippery slope. They take a stand and are purged. What mages take a stand? i can't think of a single entry in the game that expresses that the mages were willing to risk their lives for the right thing. This purge by any ration look shows that the templars where better than the mages because they eventually took a stand against the evil direction their order was taking. The mages never do, they wilfully follow their leadership into evil even when they tell you that siding with tevinter mages is evil.

[Asari_Party]

I'm apparently completely incapable of siding with the the Templars. I'm sure the mission isn't bad, but I just can't do it. I simply love "In Hushed Whispers" too much, and I'd feel guilty about abandoning the mages to their fate while at the same time I can't say the same about the templars. As one of the chantry sisters put it: "We wanted the templars to treat mages more fairly and they rebelled for it."

[SgtSteel91]

About the Occularum...

 

Ally with the Mages and Fiona will tell you that Venatori agents infiltrated the Mages ranks to seed unrest and push them towards agreeing to Alexius' deal. So, to me, it seems possible that these infiltrators were moving the Occularum without anyone knowing.

[Ryzaki]

I'm apparently completely incapable of siding with the the Templars.

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm incapable of siding with the mages without losing all interest in the game afterwards.

[SnakeCode]

Something tells me you wouldn't considering that the Templars there are the worst of the worst. For starters, one Templar called Ser Alrik calls for the Tranquil Solution, a plan to turn every mage in Thedas tranquil. He also illegally makes people tranquil and uses them for sex slaves. Another templar called Karras is a rapist and mage-hater. Don't forget how by the end, Meredith is willing to send death squads to kill NON-MAGES for things like feeding mages. 

And the mages are all misunderstood I suppose? There's Quentin, a serial killer who abducts your mother, cuts her into pieces and magically reanimates her (using blood magic obviously.)

Orsino, the head enchanter of the circle, who's in contact with and actively AIDING that serial killer (oh, and secretly a blood mage.)

Idunna, who "works" at the brothel who (using blood magic) tries to force you to slit your own throat so you don't uncover the plot she's involved in (more on that soon.)

Tahrone (remember that plot? Well she's involved too.) She's forcibly putting demons into templars to sow disaccord within the ranks ( you guessed it, using blood magic.)

Grace, a mage who swears she isn't a bloodmage, who you can send to the circle or set free, doesn't matter which though she still comes back and kidnaps your sibling/lover and puts them under a spell that almost kills them (do I really need to say it at this point? I will, BLOOD MAGIC!!!!)

 

Want me to keep going? Unlike you I haven't exausted all of the examples and there's still far many more evil mages I can mention, whereas you've listed ALL of the bad templars in the game.

 

Don't be disingenuous in suggesting to somebody who never played the game that the templars are portrayed as being far worse. They aren't.

[keesio74]

Bioware clearly wanted to make this choice a hard one by having both mages and templars have a bunch of really bad apples in their ranks. They succeeded in IMHO since I am still torn. Unless you have a strongly vested interested in one group for whatever reason, this should be a hard call for most neutral parties.

[sylvanaerie]

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm incapable of siding with the mages without losing all interest in the game afterwards.

 

Same.  I'm still stuck on my Templar playthrough halfway through and lost the oomph to continue.  I plan on picking it back up when i get interested again.

[Ryzaki]

Same.  I'm still stuck on my Templar playthrough halfway through and lost the oomph to continue.  I plan on picking it back up when i get interested again.

 

Well tell me when you do so I can attempt to slog through the mage side so you'll know you're not bleehing alone

[Cypher0020]

I'm actually torn....I've played  both sides.....

 

With templars you get Ser Barris, best templar ever! Plus, you see the plans to assassinate Celene.... you can help red eem the templars from the brink of ruin

 

Plus, with the templars, you get Calpurnia..... not to mention, epically squashing the mages when Haven falls. Have either Viv, or Solas, or dorian slap em with dispel, they're effectively useless

 

But

 

The future plot has merits. It's nice to see what the future is, if Cory wins. ..

 

But.... I fin Fiona's arugments rather weak, not to mention the whole time traveling thing is by Alexsus to simply save his son.....so he joins a fanatic cult that will screw over all of Thedas...........

 

 

I think........templars are better