447 réponses à ce sujet

[Fantazm1978]

Forums. An open place to post opinions, great aren't they?

 

as long as people don't go around thinking their opinion is gospel and anyone who disagrees is "wrong" then sure.

[AlanC9]

No, because gameplay hours depends a lot from player to player. I finished my first playthrough in 80 hours and I did everything, there was only one bottle left and a few mosaic pieces. And I've read people saying they had playthroughs with 150+ hours. I will never understand how in the world you can take so long to complete this game, so again, different people, different ways to play the game, different gameplay hours.

That's true, but I don't see the significance. If a player is comparing his experience in two different games, it's still him playing both of them. We shouldn't compare my DAO times to your DAO times, but I don't see why I can't compare my DAI times to my DAO times. Though you'd need to control for things like exploration time and pointless corridor fights, true.

The problem with counting the number of quests is that it makes games with more but shorter missions and games with missions that are arbitrarily divided into separate quests by the journal look like they have more content than they actually do. We saw a lot of this on the ME3 boards. (Of course, those threads were typically being driven by raw intellectual dishonesty, reaching rock-bottom with someone proclaiming that Grissom Academy and Attican Traverse didn't count as sidequests because they were too good.)

It's fine to disagree and say why you disagree but the fact that some people feel the need to bring up other things in DAI (like the main quest or the dragons) to defend the sidequests just shows that they don't have that many good arguments in the first place.

Hasn't that been the other way around too? I saw people mentioning stuff from DAO's main quests to prove something about sidequests.

[pinkjellybeans]

The things you list actually do have a story. The watchtower one particularly, for in my first play through my character was very involved with that quest. She understood the necessity and thus made it happen.
Even the fetch ones you mention are very realistic, because the war affects people in the most mundane sort of ways, like lack of food. I think it would be nice to see people cook around fires once you are done (as someone else mentioned), but claiming those have no story is exeggaration. Still, you can decide not to do them.

 

 

If you consider that a proper "story", alright then. And I actually have to do most of them because I need the power to unlock new places and the main quest. And in the beginning you need a LOT of power.

 

 

Hasn't that been the other way around too? I saw people mentioning stuff from DAO's main quests to prove so ething about sidequests.

 

Maybe I missed it. The only thing I said was that most of the sidequests in DAO can be completed while you're doing the main quest unlike DAI which seems like we're playing two different games, the main quest and the sidequests. Some people who are defending DAI's sidequests are trying to deviate the attention to something else, like "Ok, but look at the awesome dragons! We never had that!" 

[Intomydimension]

Agreed with the OP

[alwaysquestions]

So basically you have cutscenes and flavour RP choice. We're not going around in circles since - in almost every post I've made - I've said that people seem to want more cutscene and dialogue.

What I'm back to is how the actual gameplay part - the stuff you do in game - is any different. That's the quest design. Not the dialogue part.

A complaint that you would be completely fine with every quest staying the same if it had more dialogue is not a complaint about the quest.

 

I read most of your posts and I feel like you're the only person in the thread who insists that the words "quest design" stand for gameplay design, whereas most other people take it to mean the overall presentation of a quest (from the mechanics to integration with overall story to visuals and dialogue)

 

I agree with you, da series has a very limited set of quest mechanics (fetch, kill, talk) and dao is in no way better than dai as far as mechanics are concerned. But I don't think that's what people are talking about.

[outlaw1109]

 

Some people who are defending DAI's sidequests are trying to deviate the attention to something else, like "Ok, but look at the awesome dragons! We never had that!" 

 

Since I'm the one that brought up the dragons a few pages back, I thought I would reiterate the context (because the above line is obviously trying to derail that).

I said, "I would rather fight a dragon in DAI than deal with Ruck's quest in DA:O."

That was then perverted into the statement above.  Sorry I don't share your opinion.

[alwaysquestions]

Here's a quest I liked in dao: An Unlikely Scholar. You get

 

1) an interesting, voiced and developed character in Dagna to interact with

2) a very meaningful choice to make about her future

3) exposure to dwarves society and its problems, and decent integration into the overall story (outcomes also depend on your decisions wrt circle of magi)

 

This isn't even really a quest, since the gameplay element is minimal, but quests like this one really made the game for me and they practically litter dao: ruck, singing tree, the templar who always wanted a family and will most likely never have one unless you let the desire demon give him one,...

[pinkjellybeans]

Since I'm the one that brought up the dragons a few pages back, I thought I would reiterate the context (because the above line is obviously trying to derail that).

I said, "I would rather fight a dragon in DAI than deal with Ruck's quest in DA:O."

That was then perverted into the statement above.  Sorry I don't share your opinion.

 

Actually I wasn't talking about you. I don't have the patience to go through all the pages and it doesn't even matter who said it but there was more than one person that started talking about the main quest and how we didn't have dragons in previous games. So I didn't pervert anything.

[In Exile]

@In Exile
I am not skilled in this, so I am curious, what other sort of quest designs are available, you think?
Maybe if you listed a few it would point out more prominently what you suggest. It is difficult at times to relate to something so abstract.

Most people don't disect the quests in this depth, which again makes it difficult to intone our wish properly.

Cut scenes and dialogue options are obviously in favor of the flavor and story, it also helps elaborating the role you take. It gives motivation, which makes people more tolerant toward other flaws. So yes, they matter, depending to people, to various degree. We can not deny that.

But I am interested in the quest design aspect you listed and I wonder which of them you think plausible in a game of this scope.

I think we can separate quests into three general spheres: exploration quests, combat quests, and "skill" quests. These are not meant to be technical - just general classifications.

"Combat" quests are the kind of quests where basically 100% of the non-dialogue gameplay beside getting from A to B is fighting. This is the vast, vast majority of all Bioware quests. Whether we call something a fetch quest (kill everyone on the way to getting an item) or a kill quest (kill everyone on the way to killing a mini-boss) the content is basically the same. DAO added RP content over this by giving you a choice either in who you gave the item too (DAI does this a few times) or whether or not you kill a boss. DAI reduces the cutscene and cuts out your pre-fight conversation but sometimes adds in judgement at Skyhold to make up for it.

"Exploration" quests are quests where the main content is actually exploring the environment. These are essentially puzzles. The simplest DAI example is those quests where you have to make the line segment shapes to find loot. No combat. The various temple ruins you explore in DAI that have puzzle elements are sort of like this but because Bioware cannot let go of combat they feel like fetch quests. At a high level games like Myst are basically all exploration quests.

The final category - skills quests - are quests where to solve them you need in-game character skills and need to use the appropriate mini-game. Fallout New Vegas has a lot of these quests. Like getting Fisto the robot. Except that these quests in FO:NV also had lots of combat.

In my ideal world Bioware adds in lots more exploration and skill quests and most importantly *keeps them combat free*. This would give lots of variety.

The main quest in DAI tries to do it this way a little bit. Wicked Hearts is mostly an exploration quest around the Winter Palace with dialogue and combat to break up the pace. It's one of Bioware's best quests in all of DA.

If you like dialogue then adding it in improves any quest (that's why I liked DA2 despite the fact every quest just mean killing waves of trash mooks) but that only hides the bad design.

[In Exile]

Here's a quest I liked in dao: An Unlikely Scholar. You get

1) an interesting, voiced and developed character in Dagna to interact with
2) a very meaningful choice to make about her future
3) exposure to dwarves society and its problems, and decent integration into the overall story (outcomes also depend on your decisions wrt circle of magi)

This isn't even really a quest, since the gameplay element is minimal, but quests like this one really made the game for me and they practically litter dao: ruck, singing tree, the templar who always wanted a family and will most likely never have one unless you let the desire demon give him one,...

Those are part of the critical path. Especially the rhyming tree. You can't avoid meeting it. The desire demon you can absolutely skip but you need to talk either to the hermit or rhyming tree to process. It's a main quest just like saving Redcliffe is a main quest.

You're right about Dagna. I don't think DAI really has equivalent pure dialogue quests like that one. DAO has a few other pure dialogue quests that don't exist in DAI.

[Lianaar]

Didn't DA:2 go that way though? You could make tonnes of decisions, that are not necessarily tied to the world, like checking if that kidnapped templar is possessed or no, then telling the truth or not about it, then helping him out or not. Or chosing between the dwarven brothers in the deeproad. There were many minor things in DA:2 along that line. Still it was pretty talked down upon saying how terrible it is. But what you bring up what is good in DA:O quests is all done in DA:2 and even more. (While I am not biased with DA:I, I might be so with DA:2, for it is my favorite)

[Lord Giantsbane]

The OP hit the bull's eye.

 

Side quests in Origins were indeed the best. Like when you enter the mage's tower, going floor after floor, you're still on the way but can do excellent quests like 'Watchguard of the reaching' or 'Summoning /sciences' along the way. A diversion yes, and optional, but right on the track of the main quest. Similarly there were 'Asunder' and' Topsider's Honor' in Deep Roads, Juggernaut armor quest in Brecilian Forest and so on. They could be completed while doing the main quest, gave a good reward for exploration without being too circumvent and excellently built up the world and the lore around you. They were all very interactive.

 

DA2 was a bit off. There everything was done, in a way, in modules. And those modules did not connect well. There were good side quests, like the one with Feynriel, the one witht the magistrate's son, but they seemed to have not much connection with the story. The lore was sort of thrown into your face

 

Inquisition is I believe the worst. The side quests are interspersed in the world around you, but their connection to the story is not much clear. Also, while closing fade rifts, and fighting off venatori/red templars makes sense for the inquisitor, it is just lame to think that the head of such a powerful organisation has to go hunt frigging rams to keep the villagers fed, or collect herbs for the wounded personally. And it is not rewarding at all, it i just dumping a load of menial tasks on us. Not like you have to brave a dungeon to find those spindelweeds, they're forking everywhere, you just have to go collect 15 of them. It makes no sense. There are some good quests yes, but they're totally non interactive. Also, the puzzle quests that are supposed to be spanning the whole world, like Gaxkang in Origins, or Xebenkeck/ Hybris in DA2, are in this game all fetch quests - Shards, Mosaics, Wine bottles...  And they made a joke of

Spoiler

Imshael 

   which just plain sucks.

 

I was so pumped up for the game, it was banned in my country and yet I somehow got it on the launch day. Can't say I'm much impressed.

[DEUGH Man]

I'm not going to lie, the abundance of rock collecting at the beginning of this game has made me really bored with it, and I've pretty much stopped playing at Skywatch. The Hinterlands is exactly like Lothering, except the amount of pointless fluff that you do for gold and experience is amped up by a hundred, and you're expected to spend your first 4 levels or so there. There were a lot of "drop notes off" or "collect our money" or "tell wives that their husbands are dead" quests in Origins, but the quests were spread out to other areas. Doing that encouraged exploration and it left things uncluttered. When I look at a map on this game, I am not excited to see all those marks that represent a rock I need to find or a trash mob I need to kill, I feel overwhelmed and bored. That's the thing, the problem isn't just in the Hinterlands. Every open area I've encountered in this game so far has been exactly like the Hinterlands, so I don't even want to play long enough to get my power up to play a short story mission so I can *maybe* have one conversation with a companion that isn't me just going down the same list of questions again. Most Bioware games are like this, but they have the pacing and the action to help you ignore some things or let some things go. This game is just too boring to distract me. There's no pacing, immersion or investment that I feel in this game, which is a shame because you can tell that they were ambitious about this project. I paid full price for this game, so I'll beat it eventually, but I don't think it will be any time soon.

[Scerene]

Sadly op, none of this is going to change. BW is moving into new territory while holding on to a vestige of their former image. I made a similar thread a few weeks ago, bringing up similar issues. I would rather they had cut out most of the maps and made deep and meaningful content in a few of them, but it is what it is, though i disagree about the meaningfulness of the dao quests. I replayed it myself  not too long age and most of them involved kill x or bring y of z, the main difference being that you did these quests within the same area as the main quest, which is a far better way of doing it. When the sidequests didnt take place in the same map, it was usually an instanced map, with a clear objective that wasnt filled with clutter. 

 

90% of the entire game being dedicated to 10 huge areas filled with fetch quests/collectibles, is a different matter, and -thats- imo, where the meat of the dishonesty comes from, when comparing the two, and other games from the past. Its also impossible to ignore this content, despite the constant suggestions to do so, because you need to grind these quests in order to move the main story forward, and almost all of the sidequests from advisers/companions, involve either grinding for certain items or getting to an area to kill someone, but before you can get to that area, you have to slog through annoying mobs/and or grind something else.

 

The thing is bioware used to specialize in story-driven gameplay, where  90% of the game was focused on the main story, the main char and the companions. Thats why i loved the ME trilogy, and even enjoyed DA2 in spite of its flaws. In DAI the story, companions and main char take a huge backseat to collectibles, fetch quests, huge empty areas, tons of impersonal codex entries, many of which were ripped straight out of the world of thedas( though some of the letters scattered throughout the land are actually quite moving). These things wouldnt be so bad if there was fun gameplay, but the combat is very repetitive , with very few active abilites and a very barebones crafting system( the purple uniques are also weak in comparison and have high lvl reqs, despite their inferior stats, so its hard to feel any sense of awe or excitement when exploring dungeons because the loot simply isnt worth it). Looting and resource management has been made extremely laborious for no apparent reason, and farming for herbs/ore has never been as tedious as this, even many MMOs do a better job.

 

Theyve said that all of their games are heading down the same path, which means that you are either willing to follow or you arent. Many of the key figures of BW are long gone, and with them the core rpg making mechanics that characterized BWs previous games. They dont give a rats behind what any of us think, which is fine. They are a company that is looking to make a profit, but their level of sleaziness and dishonesty has reached an all time high. 

[dragonflight288]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm enjoying Inquisition's side quests. I never expected a carbon copy of DAO so I'm not disappointed. 

[NedPepper]

I've been thinking about this topic. Honestly, what were these phenomenal DAO side quests?

Helping Bella find her brother in Lothering?
Randomly encountering a trickster after reading some codices in the Circle tower?
Kicking some mercenaries out of a brothel?
Going around on a few kill quests with no dialogue for the crows?
Finding Ruck in the Deep Roads?

I'm honestly curious.

 

 

One of the small little fetch quests in Origins was Dagna and her wanting to go to the Circle.  A tiny, nothing of a side quest.  In Inquistion, Dagna basically replaced Sandal and people were excited to see her again!.

Name one NPC quest giver in Inquisition that has fans engaged to the point that you could see them again in a future Dragon Age game?

Hell, even the Rhyming Tree is basically an interesting piece of lore that told us about the nature of spirits.  You could even make an argument that the Rhyming Tree = Cole.  They made an entire companion out of the concept of the Rhyming Tree.

Hell, Wade and Herren have rabid fans.  This is what people are talking about when they say the side quests lack any emotional attachment.

You are right in that the side quests are basically conceptually the same.  But the emotional investment in them, the depth of the characters giving you the quests?  It's not just there.  At all.  That little Bioware touch, Wade being a melodramatic neurotic made gathering drake scales entertaining.  Dagna being so spunky and rebelling against dwarven soicety?  People rooted for her.  The Rhyming Tree had lore implications and was helping to build the concepts of the world. Ruck's story (STORY!) was heartbreaking and gave us insight about what it means to actually catch the Blight and become a ghoul.  They all had emotional story connection.

I'm actually baffled people CAN'T see the difference....
 

[Fishy]

In Origin side quest never felt like a chore. In Inquisition it feel like a chore. I am doing them because.. I don't know. It like grinding in a korean mmo.

[NedPepper]

You probably got the same DAO copy as me and not the 'Enhanced Nostalgia Edition'

 

That is completely disingenuous to the entire debate.  

Every game has flaws.  All three Dragon Age games do.  Ultimately, the amount of flaws determine your enjoyment of the overall game itself.  

For example, the reused environments in Dragon Age 2 were obviously a flaw.  Yet, it didn't detract from me enjoying the overall experience of playing Dragon Age 2. For A LOT of other people, it did.  For Inquisition, the sheer number of bland, non-varied, dry as dirt, lacking any character or emotional connected side quests is a flaw.  For me, it DOES affect my enjoyment of the overall game.  For others, not so much.

So for all of you saying we should just ignore it, well, why didn't people just ignore and stop complaining about DA 2's reused environments?  They shouldn't  That's the point of giving feedback.  It's why these forums exist.

[Elhanan]

Name one NPC quest giver in Inquisition that has fans engaged to the point that you could see them again in a future Dragon Age game?

Fiona, Josephine, Cullen, some of the Keep Stewards, the Horse-master, some of the agents like the Avvar Sky Watcher, etc. While I am not good with names, there are so many personalities and characters in DAI, it seems unwise to dismiss all of them due dislike for the quests themselves.

[Morroian]

One of the small little fetch quests in Origins was Dagna and her wanting to go to the Circle.  A tiny, nothing of a side quest.  In Inquistion, Dagna basically replaced Sandal and people were excited to see her again!.

Name one NPC quest giver in Inquisition that has fans engaged to the point that you could see them again in a future Dragon Age game?

Hell, even the Rhyming Tree is basically an interesting piece of lore that told us about the nature of spirits.  You could even make an argument that the Rhyming Tree = Cole.  They made an entire companion out of the concept of the Rhyming Tree.

Hell, Wade and Herren have rabid fans.  This is what people are talking about when they say the side quests lack any emotional attachment.

You are right in that the side quests are basically conceptually the same.  But the emotional investment in them, the depth of the characters giving you the quests?  It's not just there.  At all.  That little Bioware touch, Wade being a melodramatic neurotic made gathering drake scales entertaining.  Dagna being so spunky and rebelling against dwarven soicety?  People rooted for her.  The Rhyming Tree had lore implications and was helping to build the concepts of the world. Ruck's story (STORY!) was heartbreaking and gave us insight about what it means to actually catch the Blight and become a ghoul.  They all had emotional story connection.

I'm actually baffled people CAN'T see the difference....

 

Scout Harding, Krem are 2 that are similar.

 

Theyve said that all of their games are heading down the same path, which means that you are either willing to follow or you arent. Many of the key figures of BW are long gone, and with them the core rpg making mechanics that characterized BWs previous games. They dont give a rats behind what any of us think, which is fine. They are a company that is looking to make a profit, but their level of sleaziness and dishonesty has reached an all time high. 

 

Going in a direction you dislike is sleazy and dishonest? I don't like many aspects of their direction either but I fail to see why that makes them sleazy and dishonest.

[In Exile]

Sadly op, none of this is going to change. BW is moving into new territory while holding on to a vestige of their former image. I made a similar thread a few weeks ago, bringing up similar issues. I would rather they had cut out most of the maps and made deep and meaningful content in a few of them, but it is what its is, though i disagree about the meaningfulness of the dao quests. I replayed it myself not too long age and most of them involved kill x or bring y of z, the main difference being that you did these quests within the same area as the main quest, which is a far better way of doing it. When the sidequests didnt take place in the same map, it was usually an instanced map, with a clear objective that wasnt filled with clutter.

95% of the entire game being dedicated to 10 huge areas filled with fetch quests, is a different matter, and -thats- imo, where the meat of the dishonesty comes from, when comparing the two, and other games from the past. Its also impossible to ignore this content, despite the constant suggestions to do so, because you need to grind these quests in order to move the main story forward, and almost all of the sidequests from advisers/companions, involve either grinding for certain items or getting to an area to kill someone, but before you can get to that area, you have to slog through annoying mobs/and or grind something else.

The thing is bioware used to specialize in story-driven gameplay, where 90% of the game was focused on the main story, the main char and the companions. Thats why i loved the ME trilogy, and even enjoyed DA2 in spite of its flaws. In DAI the story, companions and main char take a huge backseat to collectibles, fetch quests, huge empty areas, tons of impersonal codex entries, many of which were ripped straight out of the world of thedas( though some of the letters scattered throughout the land are actually quite moving). These things wouldnt be so bad if there was fun gameplay, but the combat is very repetitive , with very few active abilites and a very barebones crafting system( the purple uniques are also weak in comparison and have high lvl reqs, despite their inferior stats, so its hard to feel any sense of awe or excitement when exploring dungeons because the loot simply isnt worth it). Looting and resource management has been made extremely laborious for no apparent reason, and farming for herbs/ore has never been as tedious as this, even many MMOs do a better job.

Theyve said that all of their games are heading down the same path, which means that you are either willing to follow or you arent. Many of the key figures of BW are long gone, and with them the core rpg making mechanics that characterized BWs previous games. They dont give a rats behind what any of us think, which is fine. They are a company that is looking to make a profit, but their level of sleaziness and dishonesty has reached an all time high.

Whatever else you think about Bioware games post BG2, focused on the main story cannot be one of them. The MQ (crit. path) was always short. You can see that via speed runs.

What DAO did that DAI does not is integrate the MQ and side quests way better. Saving Lothering is technically a not a critical path quest. But it's a good one and includes a lot of what we'd consider side quests (Bella's brother, finding the Smith's daughter, etc)

[Lianaar]

So for all of you saying we should just ignore it, well, why didn't people just ignore and stop complaining about DA 2's reused environments?  They shouldn't  That's the point of giving feedback.  It's why these forums exist.

Not arguing this, but please check the title of the thread and the first part of the OP. It is offensive and belligerent, basically attacking people with different opinion and actually liking DA:I side quest. With a start like that, it is not surprising to get a certain style of answer. This is not a good base of tone for a conversation at all.

 

So yes, the forum is there to express opinions, but it should be constructive and respectful to others who disagree especially in places where personal opinions matter so much.

 

I admit, it was difficult each time I had to answer to distance myself from the original tone and mood set by the thread. But it was necessary regardless.
There are a lot of people that evoke emotions in DA:I, they just happen to have a bigger role then those npcs in DA:O.

I find DA:I to be big, a bit too big for my liking. I wish it was shorter. Even if this sounds really stupid. No matter how much I love pancakes, I can not eat it every day. But when I have a surplus from it, I tend to overeat. So the same with DA:I. Husband and me play and have over 700 hours invested by now. A lot of that time is also spent with reading codex entries, listening to ambiguous text, listening to bar music (Oh, they are so beautiful!). I don't fight dragons. Not if avoidable. Of course I wouldn't ask for no dragons in dragon age

Probably the content is too varried, so people don't focus on the part that is fun for them, but see how much is fun for them and how much isn't. Thus the ratio of quest is not good for them. But the quests they like might varry from people to people.

[In Exile]

One of the small little fetch quests in Origins was Dagna and her wanting to go to the Circle. A tiny, nothing of a side quest. In Inquistion, Dagna basically replaced Sandal and people were excited to see her again!.

Name one NPC quest giver in Inquisition that has fans engaged to the point that you could see them again in a future Dragon Age game?

Hell, even the Rhyming Tree is basically an interesting piece of lore that told us about the nature of spirits. You could even make an argument that the Rhyming Tree = Cole. They made an entire companion out of the concept of the Rhyming Tree.

Hell, Wade and Herren have rabid fans. This is what people are talking about when they say the side quests lack any emotional attachment.

You are right in that the side quests are basically conceptually the same. But the emotional investment in them, the depth of the characters giving you the quests? It's not just there. At all. That little Bioware touch, Wade being a melodramatic neurotic made gathering drake scales entertaining. Dagna being so spunky and rebelling against dwarven soicety? People rooted for her. The Rhyming Tree had lore implications and was helping to build the concepts of the world. Ruck's story (STORY!) was heartbreaking and gave us insight about what it means to actually catch the Blight and become a ghoul. They all had emotional story connection.

I'm actually baffled people CAN'T see the difference....

I'm going to exclude the advisors. I'm also not great with names. However, I'll share. I'll exclude characters from other media like Fionna, Gaspard, Brialla or Celene who IMO were all great but if you count Loghain you gave to count them.

Ser Barras is great. Felix, despite his fate. Mother Giselle is phenomenal. Krem is great. Scout Harding is unfortunately a breakaway character - people are asking for a romance.

There are other NPCs just as good as people like the Lothering tavern keeper. Pretty much the entire cast of characters at the Winter's Ball.

You've got a lot of rhetoric but it's nothing more than "I liked the DAO NPCs".

[Lianaar]

 

Pretty much the entire cast of characters at the Winter's Ball.

Oh-oh-oh, Josephine's sister!  She was hilarious. A short convo and mostly focused on Josie, but still she was enjoyable.
And with the restrictions, but I really would like to have a chat with Cullen's sister too.

[In Exile]

Oh-oh-oh, Josephine's sister! She was hilarious. A short convo and mostly focused on Josie, but still she was enjoyable.
And with the restrictions, but I really would like to have a chat with Cullen's sister too.

She was incredible. I'm kind of looking forward to my Josie romance play through to see if the chat changes up and I can really poke fun at Josie a bit.