207 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahalvern]

Really? Is it here on the BSN? 

 

That's the f*cking nail in the coffin if true.

 

Yup. Here you go:

 

http://forum.bioware...ation-spoilers/

[EmissaryofLies]

Yup. Here you go:

 

http://forum.bioware...ation-spoilers/

 

All the while Justinia/Chantry gets full responsibility for the Inquisitor even existing.

 

lmfao.

 

Thanks for the link.

[Ahalvern]

All the while Justinia gets full responsibility for the Inquisitor even existing.

 

lmfao.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

She did her part, but yeah, funny.

 

No problem.

[Roamingmachine]

I hate the implication of now that the elven gods are fleshed out so they don't make sense as gods anymore, while recordings related to Andraste and Maker still keep some of their mystery. It just gives nourishment to the thought that elven gods were creations too, albeit more powerful kind. I would have preferred if they kept all the faiths in this game unique and mysterious and valid, not possibly related.

How do they not make sense anymore as gods? They are unimaginably powerful entities that have been known to create living beings (the halla, for example) and mould reality. That they actually exist is, to my mind, a pretty powerful argument for their religion to keep going. Gods are not nice, in our world or in Thedas.
As for andrastianism, what I saw in the game pretty much took the wind out of the sails of that religion. Nobody was home in the (already) black city when Cory and gang came a-knocking. No divine interventions helped the inquisitor (except by an elven goddess...) and the whole doctrine of spirits and demons is hooey. The chantry needs excuse machines like mother Giselle spouting platitudes just to keep the organization from falling like a house of cards under the weight of questions raised. What does all this leave the andrastians?

[EmissaryofLies]

As for andrastianism, what I saw in the game pretty much took the wind out of the sails of that religion. Nobody was home in the (already) black city when Cory and gang came a-knocking. No divine interventions helped the inquisitor (except by an elven goddess...) and the whole doctrine of spirits and demons is hooey. The chantry needs excuse machines like mother Giselle spouting platitudes just to keep the organization from falling like a house of cards under the weight of questions raised. What does all this leave the andrastians?

 

This helps me as a fan of the franchise, thanks for that.

 

As for your question, they have the "Herald of Andraste". Which is a lie perpetuated by Justinia's hands. A lie that I hope can be exposed. Maybe the dread wolf can play a part in that.

[Rannik]

Time to hunt some elven gods!

 

Kill the Dread Wolf DLC Biower pls.

[LobselVith8]

This helps me as a fan of the franchise, thanks for that.

 

As for your question, they have the "Herald of Andraste". Which is a lie perpetuated by Justinia's hands. A lie that I hope can be exposed. Maybe the dread wolf can play a part in that.

 

The Inquisitor has a discussion with Josephine in Skyhold where they discuss whether or not to explain what actually happened, and the Inquisitor can tell her to make it clear that it was Justinia who helped him, not Andraste; Josephine also notes that this should pacify the Chantry.

[EmissaryofLies]

The Inquisitor has a discussion with Josephine in Skyhold where they discuss whether or not to explain what actually happened, and the Inquisitor can tell her to make it clear that it was Justinia who helped him, not Andraste; Josephine also notes that this should pacify the Chantry.

 

Interesting. Wonder how that'll play out to the Andrastians when a new Divine is chosen; I wonder what story the Chantry will ultimately tell/make-up.

[Ahalvern]

How do they not make sense anymore as gods? They are unimaginably powerful entities that have been known to create living beings (the halla, for example) and mould reality. That they actually exist is, to my mind, a pretty powerful argument for their religion to keep going. Gods are not nice, in our world or in Thedas.
As for andrastianism, what I saw in the game pretty much took the wind out of the sails of that religion. Nobody was home in the (already) black city when Cory and gang came a-knocking. No divine interventions helped the inquisitor (except by an elven goddess...) and the whole doctrine of spirits and demons is hooey. The chantry needs excuse machines like mother Giselle spouting platitudes just to keep the organization from falling like a house of cards under the weight of questions raised. What does all this leave the andrastians?

 

Because the Dalish faith now amounts to worshipping glorified mages. Especially when said glorified mages were okay with their worshippers branding their slaves with slave markings and waged war to kill each other. They were okay with proving their godhood and even delighting in it; It is as Solas said: "Your Maker sets an example by not wanting to prove himself. I wish many other gods felt the same."

 

The thing is, it is not the same anymore in regards to faith with the Dalish. I cannot claim my Dalish is a worshipper of the elven gods without it sounding ridiculous in my ears, and it wasn't this way before these revelations. I thought the faiths in this game had equal distributions of mystery, story and truth mixed in them, but it appears the Dalish faith is full of horsesh*t, moreso than any other religions. I cannot help but feel this way.

 

And it is all related to stripping of the mystery out of it. You can still make excuses for the Chantry but you do not have the same luxury with the elven gods, the truth is revealed. Mother Giselle claims maybe Corypheus doesn't remember the events correctly since he slumbered for so long or did something so horrible he erased it from his mind, and it doesn't sound entirely unplausible.

 

Also, what does that say for the Dalish people's future? Will they turn to Chantrystianism after they learn about their gods? Would it make sense to plug their ears and worship them still? It is a point of no return after this game, and I'm curious how they're going to end it or progress it.

 

So, bottom line, the religion doesn't feel the same after the revelations. I had thought it equal to Chantry faith when I first played the series, no one could call them liars or wrong anymore than they could call themselves.

[Addai]

Because the Dalish faith now amounts to worshipping glorified mages. Especially when said glorified mages were okay with their worshippers branding their slaves with slave markings and waged war to kill each other. They were okay with proving their godhood and even delighting in it; It is as Solas said: "Your Maker sets an example by not wanting to prove himself. I wish many other gods felt the same."
 
The thing is, it is not the same anymore in regards to faith with the Dalish. I cannot claim my Dalish is a worshipper of the elven gods without it sounding ridiculous in my ears, and it wasn't this way before these revelations. I thought the faiths in this game had equal distributions of mystery, story and truth mixed in them, but it appears the Dalish faith is full of horsesh*t, moreso than any other religions. I cannot help but feel this way.
 
And it is all related to stripping of the mystery out of it. You can still make excuses for the Chantry but you do not have the same luxury with the elven gods, the truth is revealed. Mother Giselle claims maybe Corypheus doesn't remember the events correctly since he slumbered for so long or did something so horrible he erased it from his mind, and it doesn't sound entirely unplausible.
 
Also, what does that say for the Dalish people's future? Will they turn to Chantrystianism after they learn about their gods? Would it make sense to plug their ears and worship them still? It is a point of no return after this game, and I'm curious how they're going to end it or progress it.
 
So, bottom line, the religion doesn't feel the same after the revelations. I had thought it equal to Chantry faith when I first played the series, no one could call them liars or wrong anymore than they could call themselves.

Some of the difference may be in what we expected. I never wanted the elven gods to be angelic figures in halos riding gentle halla. The fact that they're far more complex is to me a positive development. I mean, didn't you already suspect half those stories were only half as true as they seemed? The fact that they always exonerate the elves was highly suspicious.

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say we understand the elven gods fully yet. Solas berates Morrigan for taking the same attitude- for admitting she doesn't understand them but dismissing them anyway. And I'd say we're still about where we were in terms of Andrastian faith- it was neither disproven nor proven, and there are plenty of holes in their stories as well.

[phaonica]

Because the Dalish faith now amounts to worshipping glorified mages.
 
I thought the faiths in this game had equal distributions of mystery, story and truth mixed in them, but it appears the Dalish faith is full of horsesh*t, moreso than any other religions. I cannot help but feel this way.
 
And it is all related to stripping of the mystery out of it.

I find this interesting, because you seem to be saying that you could only believe if it couldn't be proven one way or the other.

If Mythal had revealed herself in any form other than Flemeth's, would that have been okay, would you have still had faith? If you could have found irrefutable proof that the elven legends were real and true, would having proof that they were true also break your faith?

It makes me ponder what it actually means to "worship the elven gods." It seems to me that it means showing reverence and adoration for a supreme being. Glorified mages are still supreme beings. Which, to me, their being glorified mages would not be a deal breaker so long as I could still believe that they were benevolent. Which I can't; so that's a deal-breaker.

[Tielis]

I really love where they're going with it.  I think faith is a very personal thing, and should be treated accordingly.  I also love that there's an undercurrent of something "else" in the world that rises far above the various religious dogma of the various races.

[Ahalvern]

Some of the difference may be in what we expected. I never wanted the elven gods to be angelic figures in halos riding gentle halla.

 

Me neither, but I would have been content with them disappearing ages ago just as the Chantry figures did. They existed at some point, helped the people, maybe caused negative things to happen as well but they are gone and now their legend lives on in the stories.

 

 

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say we understand the elven gods fully yet. Solas berates Morrigan for taking the same attitude- for admitting she doesn't understand them but dismissing them anyway. And I'd say we're still about where we were in terms of Andrastian faith- it was neither disproven nor proven, and there are plenty of holes in their stories as well.

 

It is another aspect of what frustrates me in this game too. We got mostly negative things about them, so I am unhappy with how I see the religion as a result of it. Solas always seems so high and wise and passionate on issues that mean something to him, but you cannot inquire anything further. Well, how am I to think anything positive or make anything of it when Solas is so cryptic about it all?

 

As I said, frustrating.

[Ahalvern]

I find this interesting, because you seem to be saying that you could only believe if it couldn't be proven one way or the other.

If Mythal had revealed herself in any form other than Flemeth's, would that have been okay, would you have still had faith? If you could have found irrefutable proof that the elven legends were real and true, would having proof that they were true also break your faith?

It makes me ponder what it actually means to "worship the elven gods." It seems to me that it means showing reverence and adoration for a supreme being. Glorified mages are still supreme beings. Which, to me, their being glorified mages would not be a deal breaker so long as I could still believe that they were benevolent. Which I can't; so that's a deal-breaker.

 

Nope. I'm pretty much with Solas on this one; the fact that they desire to make their godhood known makes them unworthy of worship in my mind. If they are truly benevolent, they would be okay with letting their people choose, and not provide a concrete proof that they're real and worthy of worship. The stories are the best way of honouring them and living on in their life. Asking for more is selfish and a way to exert their power over them.

 

I would be fine if one of the gods appeared as part of a quest, talking to your PC, bestowing blessings and leaving. Because even if they appeared, it would be a result of you seeking them out (maybe part of a long quest chain?) and returning to wherever they reside, without requiring you to gloat or prove that you met the Great Elven Goddess to your other fellow Dalish.

 

But that's not the story they're telling, and the gods cannot appear and dissappear as they please since either they're locked in a mirror gate or were murdered and possessed a mortal's body or they were too busy sleeping for a long time for some reason.

[LobselVith8]

I find this interesting, because you seem to be saying that you could only believe if it couldn't be proven one way or the other.

 

It could be a difference of continually being told the Dalish are wrong about one aspect or another of their culture in Inquisition, the recton with the mages in the clans, in addition to having two companions who are anti-Dalish (with no pro-Dalish companions), while being surrounded by characters who are pro-Chantry and talk about how important the Chantry and the Andrastian faith is. It's just another piece of the story where we're told that the Dalish aren't right.

 

This is in addition to Anders' characterization in Legacy being re-written to serve as a Chantry mouthpiece. There does seem to be a bias by the writers in favor of the Chantry (particularly given how Inquisition forces you to save the Chantry, no matter how you feel about it), and I doubt the developers thought that 'slave markings' and continually having characters in your face about how wrong you or your people are was going to look good. Even Solas' romance involves having the option to get rid of your vallaslin.

 

If Mythal had revealed herself in any form other than Flemeth's, would that have been okay, would you have still had faith? If you could have found irrefutable proof that the elven legends were real and true, would having proof that they were true also break your faith?

 

Why would you have faith if you're told that what you believe in is wrong?

 

It makes me ponder what it actually means to "worship the elven gods." It seems to me that it means showing reverence and adoration for a supreme being. Glorified mages are still supreme beings. Which, to me, their being glorified mages would not be a deal breaker so long as I could still believe that they were benevolent. Which I can't; so that's a deal-breaker.

 

No, glorified mages aren't cosmic beings, which is how the Creators are viewed by the People; a mage doesn't literally wrestle with the sun, for example.

[Medhia_Nox]

Solas better get to his power-mongering... because if my Inquisitor ever catches wind of what he's doing/done... the next nap he's going to take is a dirt one.

[Addai]

Solas better get to his power-mongering... because if my Inquisitor ever catches wind of what he's doing/done... the next nap he's going to take is a dirt one.

Yeah, yeah. About how that worked for our Mary Sue Wardens and Flemeth.

[phaonica]

Nope. I'm pretty much with Solas on this one; the fact that they desire to make their godhood known makes them unworthy of worship in my mind. If they are truly benevolent, they would be okay with letting their people choose, and not provide a concrete proof that they're real and worthy of worship. The stories are the best way of honouring them and living on in their life. Asking for more is selfish and a way to exert their power over them.

Hm. That's an interesting way to look at it. One I would not have thought of. Thank you for sharing it.

[Tielis]

It could be a difference of continually being told the Dalish are wrong about one aspect or another of their culture in Inquisition, the recton with the mages in the clans, in addition to having two companions who are anti-Dalish (with no pro-Dalish companions), while being surrounded by characters who are pro-Chantry and talk about how important the Chantry and the Andrastian faith is. It's just another piece of the story where we're told that the Dalish aren't right.

 

This is in addition to Anders' characterization in Legacy being re-written to serve as a Chantry mouthpiece. There does seem to be a bias by the writers in favor of the Chantry (particularly given how Inquisition forces you to save the Chantry, no matter how you feel about it), and I doubt the developers thought that 'slave markings' and continually having characters in your face about how wrong you or your people are was going to look good. Even Solas' romance involves having the option to get rid of your vallaslin.

 

 

Why would you have faith if you're told that what you believe in is wrong?

 

 

No, glorified mages aren't cosmic beings, which is how the Creators are viewed by the People; a mage doesn't literally wrestle with the sun, for example.

 

Not if you think the entire thing was allegory to begin with.  Some people believe the Bible is allegory, and some people believe it is literal.  Both types can be extremely strong in their faith.  (Oh dear God I really hope I'm not stepping in it by bringing out that metaphor.)

[Ahalvern]

Hm. That's an interesting way to look at it. One I would not have thought of. Thank you for sharing it.

 

Happy to help.

[phaonica]

It could be a difference of continually being told the Dalish are wrong about one aspect or another of their culture. Why would you have faith if you're told that what you believe in is wrong?

The person I was quoting implied that it would break her faith for those aspects to be *known*, whether or not they were true or false.
 
 

No, glorified mages aren't cosmic beings, which is how the Creators are viewed by the People; a mage doesn't literally wrestle with the sun, for example.

Why are "cosmic beings" more worthy of worship than incredibly powerful benevolent earthly beings?

[LobselVith8]

Not if you think the entire thing was allegory to begin with.  Some people believe the Bible is allegory, and some people believe it is literal.  Both types can be extremely strong in their faith.  (Oh dear God I really hope I'm not stepping in it by bringing out that metaphor.)

 

That doesn't really touch on why someone would continue to have faith in something they are told is wrong, like Abelas pointing out that the elves are wrong about Mythal, because she was murdered, not imprisoned.

[phaonica]

Not if you think the entire thing was allegory to begin with.  Some people believe the Bible is allegory, and some people believe it is literal.  Both types can be extremely strong in their faith.  (Oh dear God I really hope I'm not stepping in it by bringing out that metaphor.)

I think it's a fair way to look at it. That one's Dalish faith could be based on the thought that maybe none of those "gods" were real, but that certain ideas are embodied in certain names and tales and that those ideas are what are actually being worshiped. The tales were never "true" so it doesn't matter if they are disproved.

However, if part of your faith includes an adamant belief that the "old ways" should be restored, then I think the game encourages you (as a Dalish) to really consider that you don't know what that truly means.

[TheLastArchivist]

Jesus, everybody telling the guy is wrong and wating to make him feel stupid and unwelcome...he must feel like the worst sort of criminal now.

Have people in this forum always been like that? 

[LobselVith8]

The person I was quoting implied that it would break her faith for those aspects to be *known*, whether or not they were true or false.

 

Known or not, I think the delivery could also be part of the reason. We also have to factor that the Dalish get the short end of the stick in Inquisition, as all the revelations involve the Dalish being wrong, while the developers went out of their way to completely rewrite Anders character in Legacy because they wanted to send a pro-Chantry message, and in Inquisition we're surrounded by advisers, companions, and random characters who continually reinforce a pro-Chantry message.

 

Why are "cosmic beings" more worthy of worship than incredibly powerful benevolent earthly beings?

 

You're asking why gods are worthy of worship, as opposed to mortal men and women?

 

I think it's a fair way to look at it. That one's Dalish faith could be based on the thought that maybe none of those "gods" were real, but that certain ideas are embodied in certain names and tales and that those ideas are what are actually being worshiped. The tales were never "true" so it doesn't matter if they are disproved.

However, if part of your faith includes an adamant belief that the "old ways" should be restored, then I think the game encourages you (as a Dalish) to really consider that you don't know what that truly means.

 

The "old ways" of elves governing themselves and being allowed to follow their religion without being killed for it? That's the main focus of the Dalish, after all.