207 réponses à ce sujet

[Tielis]

That doesn't really touch on why someone would continue to have faith in something they are told is wrong, like Abelas pointing out that the elves are wrong about Mythal, because she was murdered, not imprisoned.

 

There are plenty of theories about how Jesus didn't die on the cross... there was even an interesting movie about one where he ends up in Buddhist lands and lives to a grand old age.  As a Christian myself, I found it very interesting but it hasn't shaken my faith at all.  I honestly wouldn't mind if it was true.

[phaonica]

Known or not, I think the delivery could also be part of the reason. We also have to factor that the Dalish get the short end of the stick in Inquisition, as all the revelations involve the Dalish being wrong, while the developers went out of their way to completely rewrite Anders character in Legacy because they wanted to send a pro-Chantry message, and in Inquisition we're surrounded by advisers, companions, and random characters who continually reinforce a pro-Chantry message.

I admittedly don't understand what you are trying to say. That the developers are anti-Dalish?
 
 

You're asking why gods are worthy of worship, as opposed to mortal men and women?

Yeah, I am. What is a "god" and what makes them inherently worthy of worship?
 
 

The "old ways" of elves governing themselves and being allowed to follow their religion without being killed for it? That's the main focus of the Dalish, after all.

I'm referring to the "old ways" specifically having to do with whatever elven practices were before the fall of Arlathan. The Dalish seem to glorify those practices, even thought they don't know what they were.

[EmissaryofLies]

I wonder where Kanye fits in all this.

[Reznore57]

It could be a difference of continually being told the Dalish are wrong about one aspect or another of their culture in Inquisition, the recton with the mages in the clans, in addition to having two companions who are anti-Dalish (with no pro-Dalish companions), while being surrounded by characters who are pro-Chantry and talk about how important the Chantry and the Andrastian faith is. It's just another piece of the story where we're told that the Dalish aren't right.

 

 

 

The thing is the Andrastian faith is bigger than the elven faith.

Currently you can't raise army in the name of Mythal to defeat something like the Breach, it's just not happening.

But Mythal had a more direct role in saving or bringing solution to our heroes.

She saved the wardens , who went on to end the Blight.

She saved Hawke who went on to err...cause chaos everywhere.

And in the end it's Mythal who grants you a boon to defeat Corypheus.(also The Dread Wolf save the Inquisitor from dying from the Anchor.The Inquisitor basically walk out of the fade dying )

 

Anyway yeah the elven faith takes a few kicks in the head , most of their gods had a really darker side , and the Dalish have almost build a new faith at this point.

Anyway it's no big deal , I mean in DAI you can easily dismiss the Maker if that's your fancy.

I mean : The Inquisitor interrupted a ritual , touched an orb belonging to an elven god , got some power from it.

Then he was saved by the Divine , a mortal woman.

Then he was saved a second time by this Elven God who was there because he was looking for his orb.

He raised an army because people assumed it was all the Maker work .

In the fade again you're saved by a spirit .

Corypheus doesn't even know who the hell is the Maker , I mean...?

He's one of the few people who is supposed to have heard His voice , (with the other magisters and Andraste).

Also we got nothing about Andraste ashes ...they just went poof.

 

To be honest I thought the whole Maker /Chantry stuff was all about faith , you get nothing but your belief there's some higher thing looking out for you/the world.

I thought the elven Gods were more interesting , they were flawed,.They made mistakes , they have revenge fantasies .They failed the elves ...

Anyway meeting Flemythal in the fade was a bigger thing than Andraste who turns out to be the Divine who turns out to (probably) be a spirit(who likes all spirit has no freaking clue about anything).

 

Also the epilogue.I mean ...I played Dalish , and I think it was a big reason I enjoyed the game so much.

I thought it had some heartbreaking moment when your pc faith (if you believe in the elven Gods) is shaken to the core.

[Medhia_Nox]

@phaonica:  Perspective.

 

There are a maddeningly number of means by which the material universe is perceived.  Ours is one.  Plants and animals perceive the universe in vastly different ways and, among them, it is nowhere close to the same.  Cyanobacteria does not perceive the universe in the same way that an oak tree might - a drone bee does not perceive the universe in the same way as a house cat.

 

If there is a hierarchy of perception - and I would suggest there possibly is - we may be at the "top" in the sense of our perceivable universe - BUT there is no way to perceive beyond our limitations (it is why, in our reality, most religions suggest that god is "unknowable"). 

 

A god (Dumat or Fan'Harel) would be able to perceive greater.

 

A Supreme Deity (the Maker) would be able to perceive perfectly.

[LobselVith8]

I admittedly don't understand what you are trying to say. That the developers are anti-Dalish?

 

I'm saying that I see different treatment for the Dalish, in comparison to the Chantry, or even an order like the templars. We get a plethora of people who talk about the positives regarding the Chantry or the templars in Inquisition, while we continually get people talk negatively about the Dalish, whether it's Vivienne, Solas, Sera, or even minor characters.

 

We don't meet different types of Dalish, despite heading to the Dales - a region that is supposed to be predominantly elven in population. We do get to accomplish some pro-Dalish outcomes, but that involves the main character being pro-Dalish to start with. I'm not even touching on the decision to turn vallaslin into slave markings.

 

Yeah, I am. What is a "god" and what makes them inherently worthy of worship?

 

I can't really answer why people would worship a god, as opposed to a mortal person, except I'm pretty sure you already know that finding out that the gods some people worshiped weren't gods at all would cause some people to lose faith.

 

I'm referring to the "old ways" specifically having to do with whatever elven practices were before the fall of Arlathan. The Dalish seem to glorify those practices, even thought they don't know what they were.

 

Which the Dalish admittedly know little about, as Merrill even admits to Hawke; they have gaps in their lore, and they simply don't have all the facts. It's why she says they don't really know who the Forgotten Ones are, or why there was a war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones. She remarks that no one in Clan Sabrae knows whether Tevinter humans or Arlathan elves summoned Audacity, despite how the Dalish negatively view using magic that involves spirits.

 

The Dalish want to uncover the truth about their past, but I think the Dalish care more about their autonomy and self-governance. A hunter like Taniel prefers the nomadic lifestyle because the Dalish clans are truly free, while Merrill talks about how Hawke could unite the Dalish and establish a homeland if he was Dalish; the latter is mentioned as a goal for many Dalish - a homeland where they can govern themselves. The diversity of the clans and the aspiration for an elven homeland is pretty much ignored in Inquisition for incessant dialogue where a myriad of people talk about how the Dalish are wrong about X, Y, or Z.

[Medhia_Nox]

@LobselVith8:  What you may be upset about is your perception of what they intended and where they were going with the Dalish. 

 

It is possible you believed they suddenly did an about face on this group of people in their fictional universe - I will say that I believed this is what they intended for the Dalish all along.

 

It is possible that all the dialogue, all the reveals, all the info just stops short of a blatant:  "This group was ALWAYS like this."  ((For the markings you need look no further than the dwarven caste system to say: "Well, there IS precedence in the DA universe for this."))

 

Merrill is obsessed with the goal... she admires Hawke - so thinks Hawke could unite them.  That isn't the developers say: "Hawke could do this..."  Especially since everything Hawke touches turns south.

 

In three games and several books I have never gotten the impression that the Dalish want what you're suggesting - DA:I actually just affirmed everything I've believed about them before this game (Masked Empire started the trend).

[phaonica]

@phaonica:  Perspective.
 
There are a maddeningly number of means by which the material universe is perceived.  Ours is one.  Plants and animals perceive the universe in vastly different ways and, among them, it is nowhere close to the same.  Cyanobacteria does not perceive the universe in the same way that an oak tree might - a drone bee does not perceive the universe in the same way as a house cat.
 
If there is a hierarchy of perception - and I would suggest there possibly is - we may be at the "top" in the sense of our perceivable universe - BUT there is no way to perceive beyond our limitations (it is why, in our reality, most religions suggest that god is "unknowable"). 
 
A god (Dumat or Fan'Harel) would be able to perceive greater.
 
A Supreme Deity (the Maker) would be able to perceive perfectly.

I like how this is explained. Thank you.

It does suggest, I think, that very powerful mages could achieve and be considered gods.

[LobselVith8]

@LobselVith8:  What you may be upset about is your perception of what they intended and where they were going with the Dalish. 

 

It is possible you believed they suddenly did an about face on this group of people in their fictional universe - I will say that I believed this is what they intended for the Dalish all along.

 

I think you're forgetting about all the rectons and handwaves if you think the developers "intended" this; the developers couldn't even keep the Magi or Dalish Boons precisely because they didn't plan ahead. It's also why we have people like Leliana and Anders resurrected from the dead. As for the idea that they always intended these revelations, I don't see how that's the case when Merrill's codex entry contradicts the new lore about what's done to the elven mages, as well as Origins already having more than three mages to a specific clan.

 

It is possible that all the dialogue, all the reveals, all the info just stops short of a blatant:  "This group was ALWAYS like this."  ((For the markings you need look no further than the dwarven caste system to say: "Well, there IS precedence in the DA universe for this."))

 

It contributes nothing, except to add to the list of things that the Dalish got wrong. That and fodder for anti-elven threads.

 

Merrill is obsessed with the goal... she admires Hawke - so thinks Hawke could unite them.  That isn't the developers say: "Hawke could do this..."  Especially since everything Hawke touches turns south.

 

Merrill is driven to help her people, but I pointed it out as an example of a Dalish who thinks about the possibility of an elven homeland; it wasn't meant to be a reflection on Hawke's capabilities.

 

In three games and several books I have never gotten the impression that the Dalish want what you're suggesting - DA:I actually just affirmed everything I've believed about them before this game (Masked Empire started the trend).

 

An elven homeland has been mentioned as far back as Origins; it's even the premise of the Dalish Boon. As Taniel remarks, "The keeper says that one day the Dalish will find a home that we can call our own. But why? Why should we tie ourselves to stone constructions like the humans and the dwarves? What is wrong with the life we have now? We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?"

[o Ventus]

 

Part of me was afraid when I started the game that it would be too american in the typical in-your-face religious talk kind of way. No offence but as a european I've often rolled my eyes at how all US media is way too much about God this, God that and Jesus this, Jesus that. It's just highfalutin platitudes to me, and I'm not even atheist. I can't really decide if DA:I overdid this or not though. I think sometimes it did have a bit of an american-centric viewpoint on how the various characters perceived god, but again, I think it makes sense because this is like mediveal times of the Dragon Age universe.

 

I love how non-Americans always say that America is very zealous in its religion (when 1/5 of the country describes themselves as atheist, and only about 40% of those who qualify as "religious" go to Church on Sunday, and that figure in itself is under scrutiny by sociologists, who say the figure is actually LOWER). I also like the "as a European" qualification, implying that Europeans are somehow less religious than anyone else on the planet (and ignoring Europe's far darker history of religious violence than America's).

 

Then again, America is the easy target for every little teeny-tiny thing, so I shouldn't be at all surprised.

[phaonica]

I'm saying that I see different treatment for the Dalish, in comparison to the Chantry, or even an order like the templars. We get a plethora of people who talk about the positives regarding the Chantry or the templars in Inquisition, while we continually get people talk negatively about the Dalish, whether it's Vivienne, Solas, Sera, or even minor characters.
 
We don't meet different types of Dalish, despite heading to the Dales - a region that is supposed to be predominantly elven in population. We do get to accomplish some pro-Dalish outcomes, but that involves the main character being pro-Dalish to start with. I'm not even touching on the decision to turn vallaslin into slave markings.

I agree that I felt those who hold the Chantry faith were not as challenged as those who hold the Dalish faith. I think it would have been more interesting if both faiths had been challenged more equally, specifically that the Chantry faith had been challenged more, not that the Dalish faith be challenged less.
 
 

I can't really answer why people would worship a god, as opposed to a mortal person, except I'm pretty sure you already know that finding out that the gods some people worshiped weren't gods at all would cause some people to lose faith.

That could be true for anyone, mortal or immortal. An element of trust has been damaged. But it doesn't have to be broken entirely. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
 

The Dalish want to uncover the truth about their past, but I think the Dalish care more about their autonomy and self-governance. A hunter like Taniel prefers the nomadic lifestyle because the Dalish clans are truly free, while Merrill talks about how Hawke could unite the Dalish and establish a homeland if he was Dalish; the latter is mentioned as a goal for many Dalish - a homeland where they can govern themselves. The diversity of the clans and the aspiration for an elven homeland is pretty much ignored in Inquisition for incessant dialogue where a myriad of people talk about how the Dalish are wrong about X, Y, or Z.

Perhaps. I had the impression that the Dalish uncovering and restoring their past was a higher priority for them. Maybe I was mistaken.

[phaonica]

As for the idea that they always intended these revelations, I don't see how that's the case when Merrill's codex entry contradicts the new lore about what's done to the elven mages,  
 
It contributes nothing, except to add to the list of things that the Dalish got wrong. That and fodder for anti-elven threads.

I see what you're saying about the contradictions between Merril's codex and Minaeve's origin. That does seem a little unfair, to me. If they wanted Minaeve's account to be representative, that ship had already sailed when they made Merril's account representative.

[LobselVith8]

I agree that I felt those who hold the Chantry faith were not as challenged as those who hold the Dalish faith. I think it would have been more interesting if both faiths had been challenged more equally, specifically that the Chantry faith had been challenged more, not that the Dalish faith be challenged less.

 

That's an interesting idea. Admittedly, I'm bothered by the imbalance with the Dalish and their faith, rather than that it's challenged. People constantly talk negatively about it, but we seldom see the positives. Minaeve, Solas, Vivienne, the mercenary 'Dalish' - all bombard the player with negative views about the People, and it's really only the main character who can provide a positive Dalish perspective. 

 

Why not see positive examples at the forefront, instead of consistently negative ones? Even in past games we had this issue with the abrasive story-teller Sarel (who we find out is still reeling from his wife's death at the hands of the werewolves, but only if the player is Dalish) or the arrogant guards at Sundermount?

 

Unfortunately, the Dalish perspective suffers. Lavellan uses shemlen terminology throughout the game, and even Keeper Hawen's clan suffers from occasionally using it instead of elvish terms. This was also a problem with the previous game; Merrill's line about how the Dalish view spirits simply as spirits (as WoT affirms), and her explanation that the Dalish don't see them as Spirits and Demons (the First Children of the Maker and those who turned their backs on the Maker) aren't elaborated on unless you listen to her companion banter with Anders, so it's easily to initially dismiss her cultural perspective. However, this doesn't make it into Inquisition, where everyone uses the Andrastian terminology of 'Spirits' and 'Demons', although Solas admittedly uses a different definition for demon than the one intended by the Chantry.

 

That could be true for anyone, mortal or immortal. An element of trust has been damaged. But it doesn't have to be broken entirely. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

 

True. It doesn't have to be, but I think it would be broken for some individuals simply based on the knowledge that the god they worshiped was simply a mortal, because it comes with all the flaws and failings that mortality entails.

 

Perhaps. I had the impression that the Dalish uncovering and restoring their past was a higher priority for them. Maybe I was mistaken.

 

I'm sure it varies from person to person.

[Hellion Rex]

I personally thought the concept of Faith was handled rather well, considering all the twists and turns that were thrown into what we knew of Thedosian lore prior to Inquisition.

 

Faith was best personified in Cassandra's character, in my opinion. I was so impressed with her growth as a character in this installment.

 

I think Morrigan said it best: "Is it worth reminding myself that perhaps I do not know everything after all?"

[LobselVith8]

I see what you're saying about the contradictions between Merril's codex and Minaeve's origin. That does seem a little unfair, to me. If they wanted Minaeve's account to be representative, that ship had already sailed when they made Merril's account representative.

 

I really don't see the point of Minaeve or Dalish's account; it seems like the developers simply want to avoid the Dalish being an alternative for any elven mages, but it runs contradictory to what was established in two games already. Lanaya already said some Keepers are descended from the nobility who governed the Dales, so you had mage nobles in the elven kingdom without templars, and the Dalish clans are remnants of this society. Zathrian's clan had more than three mages at one point, and Ariane mentions an elven Circle mage was welcomed into her clan.

 

Merrill mentions how the Dalish view magic as a gift of the Creators, and that the notion of the Circles is simply foreign to them. As she tells Bethany, "Any child with the gift of magic is apprenticed to a Keeper... in another clan if there's no need in her own." She adds, "Magic is a gift of the Creators. Why wouldn't we use it? It just seems... wasteful for humans to lock their mages away where they can't do any good."

 

Frankly, Inquisition feels like it stacks the deck against the Dalish one too many times, from their culture to matters of faith, and does nothing to counterbalance that.

[raging_monkey]

I really don't see the point of Minaeve or Dalish's account; it seems like the developers simply want to avoid the Dalish being an alternative for any elven mages, but it runs contradictory to what was established in two games already. Lanaya already said some Keepers are descended from the nobility who governed the Dales, so you had mage nobles in the elven kingdom without templars, and the Dalish clans are remnants of this society. Zathrian's clan had more than three mages at one point, and Ariane mentions an elven Circle mage was welcomed into her clan.
 
Merrill mentions how the Dalish view magic as a gift of the Creators, and that the notion of the Circles is simply foreign to them. As she tells Bethany, "Any child with the gift of magic is apprenticed to a Keeper... in another clan if there's no need in her own." She adds, "Magic is a gift of the Creators. Why wouldn't we use it? It just seems... wasteful for humans to lock their mages away where they can't do any good."
 
Frankly, Inquisition feels like it stacks the deck against the Dalish one too many times, from their culture to matters of faith, and does nothing to counterbalance that.

time to flip the table ?

[phaonica]

That's an interesting idea. [size=4]Admittedly, I'm bothered by the imbalance with the Dalish and their faith, rather than that it's challenged. People constantly talk negatively about it, but we seldom see the positives.  
Why not see positive examples at the forefront, instead of consistently negative ones?

The examples do have to be significantly negative if one is expected to be challenged. If too balanced, no challenge could occur.
However, I think I understand what you mean, that Dalish faith has already endured constant challenge in these games with little to no relief. Also, that these challenges seem contradictory to what we've been told before.

Why not see positive examples at the forefront, instead of consistently negative ones?

What if the negative ones are legitimately representative? Do you feel that, from what we have already been shown, that there is nothing negative that could be depicted that wouldn't be a contradiction?

[Rannik]

Jesus, everybody telling the guy is wrong and wating to make him feel stupid and unwelcome...he must feel like the worst sort of criminal now.

Have people in this forum always been like that? 

 

Just the elven fans.

[Medhia_Nox]

@LobselVith8:  My point is, you as a player keep getting upset because you insist that the Dalish are something grand.

 

Then you also state that the devs are always bombarding you with the contrary.

 

Yet, you seem to insist that the devs are just retconning to... I dunno... hurt you?

If they've bombarding you with negatives toward the Dalish - the only one painting the Dalish in a positive light, is you.

 

Liking the Dalish doesn't have to mean that they're going to get their spot in the sun.

 

@phaonica:  Well stated:  "What if the negative ones are legitimately representative." 

[phaonica]

I really don't see the point of Minaeve or Dalish's account; it seems like the developers simply want to avoid the Dalish being an alternative for any elven mages, but it runs contradictory to what was established in two games already. Lanaya already said some Keepers are descended from the nobility who governed the Dales, so you had mage nobles in the elven kingdom without templars, and the Dalish clans are remnants of this society. Zathrian's clan had more than three mages at one point, and Ariane mentions an elven Circle mage was welcomed into her clan.
 
Merrill mentions how the Dalish view magic as a gift of the Creators, and that the notion of the Circles is simply foreign to them. As she tells Bethany, "Any child with the gift of magic is apprenticed to a Keeper... in another clan if there's no need in her own." She adds, "Magic is a gift of the Creators. Why wouldn't we use it? It just seems... wasteful for humans to lock their mages away where they can't do any good."
 
Frankly, Inquisition feels like it stacks the deck against the Dalish one too many times, from their culture to matters of faith, and does nothing to counterbalance that.

I don't know. I don't like to assume that all Dalish clans are the same and have the same practices and priorities, but maybe they do.

I did think that Minaeve's story opened up the potential for a Dalish PC to have been raised with a more "magic is dangerous and must be controlled" perspective. But if her background contradicts previous examples, then I agree it wasn't a good way to do this.

[LobselVith8]

The examples do have to be significantly negative if one is expected to be challenged. If too balanced, no challenge could occur.
However, I think I understand what you mean, that Dalish faith has already endured constant challenge in these games with little to no relief. Also, that these challenges seem contradictory to what we've been told before.

 

It's why I'd like to see more positive portrayals of the Dalish at the forefront. Most recent portrayals are strongly negative (particularly Clan Virnehn in TME), and even leave out all the context for why some of the Dalish are abrasive towards outsiders.

 

What if the negative ones are legitimately representative? Do you feel that, from what we have already been shown, that there is nothing negative that could be depicted that wouldn't be a contradiction?

 

I don't see the point when we've gotten two previous games, and even a novel, that put negative portrayals of the Dalish at the forefront. I don't see why other groups are allowed to have a nuanced look at their culture (the good and the bad) while the Dalish continually get the negative. Again, I don't mind that the Dalish have flaws, but I do mind all the excessive negativity without any balance to show the other sides to them.

 

Why not allow the Dalish to take in elven mages who didn't want to fight in the war? Why not have some of the Dalish play a role in the Dales, in the wake of the Orlesian civil war and the massacre at Halamshiral? Despite the Dales being predominantly elven, and Asunder mentioning most humans in the Dales leaving en mass because of the civil war, the Dales offers a plethora of human quests and only a small handful of elven ones. It's incredibly one-sided.

[phaonica]

Just the elven fans.

Wait, what? Who are we making feel stupid or unwelcome?

[Rannik]

I love how non-Americans always say that America is very zealous in its religion (when 1/5 of the country describes themselves as atheist, and only about 40% of those who qualify as "religious" go to Church on Sunday, and that figure in itself is under scrutiny by sociologists, who say the figure is actually LOWER). I also like the "as a European" qualification, implying that Europeans are somehow less religious than anyone else on the planet

 
That's because we objectively are, 7 of the 10 less religious countries in the world are in Europe, the other three being China, Japan and SK.
 
I'm yet to see a politician (even conservative christians) mention religious stuff in my entire life, meanwhile you have "In God we trust" printed on your money... same with church attendance, I know exactly one person that goes to church on Sundays (statistics are reaching the single digits).
 

(and ignoring Europe's far darker history of religious violence than America's).

Actually, that past is your past too 
 

Then again, America is the easy target for every little teeny-tiny thing, so I shouldn't be at all surprised.

Well, I love America all things considered but facts are facts.

[Ahalvern]

I agree that I felt those who hold the Chantry faith were not as challenged as those who hold the Dalish faith. I think it would have been more interesting if both faiths had been challenged more equally, specifically that the Chantry faith had been challenged more, not that the Dalish faith be challenged less.

 

Well I think since the Chantry faith closely mirrors the monotheistic religions they don't want to go down that rabbit hole but since the Dalish faith is entirely made up they think they can do whatever the f they want to do with it.

 

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but this is what it feels like.

[LobselVith8]

@LobselVith8:  My point is, you as a player keep getting upset because you insist that the Dalish are something grand.

 

Then you also state that the devs are always bombarding you with the contrary.

 

Your aim seems to be to completely miss the point of my posts. Allow me to clarify the matter. I'm pointing out that groups like the Chantry and the Order of Templars are shown different sides to them - right at the forefront of the narrative - while the same isn't true about the Dalish. All we get is the negative, while the positive sides tend to be easy to miss.

 

Yet, you seem to insist that the devs are just retconning to... I dunno... hurt you?

 

I'm having trouble taking you seriously when you phrase things like this, because you come across incredibly petty. I was pointing out that Merrill's codex (as well as the presence of more than three mages within a clan prior to Inquisition) contradicts what was said in Inquisition about how a clan treats their mages.

 

If they've bombarding you with negatives toward the Dalish - the only one painting the Dalish in a positive light, is you.

 

Liking the Dalish doesn't have to mean that they're going to get their spot in the sun.

 

I see nothing wrong with wanting more balance with an ethnic group of different people. You're welcome to dislike the Dalish, but I'm not inclined to share your opinion about them, or how the developers have handled them. I do see a problem when the positive portrayals are relegated to easy to miss codex entries and optional war table missions, while the negative portrayals are consistently at the forefront of the games and one of the most recent novels of the franchise.