207 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

Again, I don't mind that the Dalish have flaws, but I do mind all the excessive negativity without any balance to show the other sides to them.
 
Why not allow the Dalish to take in elven mages who didn't want to fight in the war? Why not have some of the Dalish play a role in the Dales, in the wake of the Orlesian civil war and the massacre at Halamshiral? Despite the Dales being predominantly elven, and Asunder mentioning most humans in the Dales leaving en mass because of the civil war, the Dales offers a plethora of human quests and only a small handful of elven ones. It's incredibly one-sided.

Maybe the point is to depict a culture that, regardless of why they became who they are, legitimately doesn't have a lot of positive elements to it anymore. A whole culture that is tragically, slowly doomed.

[LobselVith8]

Maybe the point is to depict a culture that, regardless of why they became who they are, legitimately doesn't have a lot of positive elements to it anymore. A whole culture that is tragically, slowly doomed.

 

The issue isn't that there aren't positive elements to the Dalish - it's that they are never at the forefront of the story like the negative ones are. You can read about a Dalish clan taking in a human infant who was abandoned by her parents, who grew up to be Aveline and changed the lives of women across the scope of Thedas forever. You can go out of your way to find out that Zathrian's clan rescued Aneirin when he was a boy, and left for dead by the templars. You can optionally encounter Velanna's clan, who respond positively when they see her in the company of humans. You can do war table missions where Clan Lavellan might survive and help cure the humans of Wycome, and protect the elves of the Alienage from encroaching humans who threaten them. However, it's much, much easier to hear Solas, Vivienne, Sera, and even a minor character like Minaeve or Dalish talk negatively about the Dalish, and there isn't even a pro-Dalish adviser or companion available within the narrative. Solas can even admit he's wrong about the Dalish, but that also takes time, and a pro-Dalish character to tell him that he's wrong about the People.

[phaonica]

The issue isn't that there aren't positive elements to the Dalish - it's that they are never at the forefront of the story like the negative ones are. You can read about a Dalish clan taking in a human infant who was abandoned by her parents, who grew up to be Aveline and changed the lives of women across the scope of Thedas forever. You can go out of your way to find out that Zathrian's clan rescued Aneirin when he was a boy, and left for dead by the templars. You can optionally encounter Velanna's clan, who respond positively when they see her in the company of humans. You can do war table missions where Clan Lavellan might survive and help cure the humans of Wycome, and protect the elves of the Alienage from encroaching humans who threaten them. However, it's much, much easier to hear Solas, Vivienne, Sera, and even a minor character like Minaeve or Dalish talk negatively about the Dalish, and there isn't even a pro-Dalish adviser or companion available within the narrative. Solas can even admit he's wrong about the Dalish, but that also takes time, and a pro-Dalish character to tell him that he's wrong about the People.

I'm just saying maybe they're not at the forefront because they are outliers, exceptions, uncommon. Or maybe not. I think we don't necessarily know what's representative because we can't see the whole picture. And maybe we'll never see it. Even if we could look at all of a picture as a whole, sometimes a fair deception will still reveal that a thing is mostly negative.

[o Ventus]

 
That's because we objectively are, 7 of the 10 less religious countries in the world are in Europe, the other three being China, Japan and SK.
 
I'm yet to see a politician (even conservative christians) mention religious stuff in my entire life, meanwhile you have "In God we trust" printed on your money... same with church attendance, I know exactly one person that goes to church on Sundays (statistics are reaching the single digits).
 

Actually, that past is your past too 

Well, I love America all things considered but facts are facts.

Except 20% of the country identifies as atheist as of 2012, which is 4% more than South Korea.

 

"In God We Trust" has been in circulation on money since 1957 (when a ton of people in America DID identify as religious), and was phased in entirely by 1964. The thing is, it's been nearly 58 years since 1957. Pointing the finger and saying "well, it's on their money, it must be true" is stupid when said money became the way it is in an entirely different time.

 

In what way is past European religious violence MY past? I've never been to England. I've never been off the North American continent. Or maybe you were being facetious by implying that since most Americans descend from Europeans, that it's our past by proxy. Still no, because the Europeans that came here at the turn of the 20th century didn't fight in the Crusades. Either way, you're wrong.

 

Facts are facts, but they aren't facts when you make sh*t up or regurgitate tired old stereotypes and are objectively, verifiably false.

[Zyrious]

Except 20% of the country identifies as atheist as of 2012, which is 4% more than South Korea.

 

"In God We Trust" has been in circulation on money since 1957 (when a ton of people in America DID identify as religious), and was phased in entirely by 1964. The thing is, it's been nearly 58 years since 1957. Pointing the finger and saying "well, it's on their money, it must be true" is stupid when said money became the way it is in an entirely different time.

 

In what way is past European religious violence MY past? I've never been to England. I've never been off the North American continent. Or maybe you were being facetious by implying that since most Americans descend from Europeans, that it's our past by proxy. Still no, because the Europeans that came here at the turn of the 20th century didn't fight in the Crusades. Either way, you're wrong.

 

Facts are facts, but they aren't facts when you make sh*t up or regurgitate tired old stereotypes and are objectively, verifiably false.

Why downplay the amount of religious here in the U.S. as if its a bad thing? We are a secular nation but one that takes pride in the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom for public practice of religion, and separation of church and state. We have nothing to be ashamed of and I find the very notion that we do insulting.

 

On topic i loved the way faith was portrayed. You could be a true faithfull beginning to end, or start agnostic and become religious or vice versa or be outright atheist.

[o Ventus]

Why downplay the amount of religious here in the U.S. as if its a bad thing? We are a secular nation but one that takes pride in the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom for public practice of religion, and separation of church and state. We have nothing to be ashamed of and I find the very notion that we do insulting.

 

On topic i loved the way faith was portrayed. You could be a true faithfull beginning to end, or start agnostic and become religious or vice versa or be outright atheist.

I'm not, if that's what it looks like. But when someone says "yeah, you Americans are all about that Bible stuff, heh yeah!" as it was in the OP, it shows that whoever is making that statement has a colored view of how other people practice their religion, and 9.9/10 times it's completely wrong, and it gets really annoying hearing people say "you Americans do X" and "Why are Americans all Y?" It also runs with the assumption that Americans are all Christian, which is even worse than assuming that we're all zealots.

 

"Yeah, you Americans are all about that Bible stuff!" Yeah, except for all of us who aren't.

[Medhia_Nox]

LobselVith8:  The developers literally own the Dalish - they're not some real world minority group.

 

If the developers say:  "Yes, the Dalish are as myopic and bitter as we're portraying them."  It doesn't matter - at all - what you think.  The very same for the opposite. 

 

I hate the Dalish because I find them to be insulting to my studies on animistic tribal traditions - they are, to me, what a modern hipster "thinks" nature loving people's should be like.  The noble savage gone ludicrous. 

 

That is not relevant - if the developers want to have Solas bring about the next golden age of elves - I've got two choices, roll my eyes and continue playing DA games or move on.

 

Chances are - I'll do the former so long as I'm not forced to play a Dalish (City Elf would be palletable) saving the elven people from... "whatever".  If they want to tell the "Dalish rebel and make homeland story."  My only hope is that they inform the consumer so I can opt out.

 

But unlike the mustache twirling villains you seem to make "Dalish haters" out to be - I actually couldn't care at all about what happens to them or how they are portrayed. 

 

My response to you is simply the fact that you seem to believe you have ownership of "The People" and that you, not the developers, are the authority on who they are and how they are portrayed and anything that doesn't fit into your view is reconning, or favoritism or whatever.

 

Also - trying to discredit someone by suggesting you don't take them seriously holds no value to me - I don't know the real you, and I could care less about the opinion of someone named LobselVith8.  There's really no need to couch conversations you don't like with passive aggressive behavior.

[LobselVith8]

LobselVith8:  The developers literally own the Dalish - they're not some real world minority group.

 

If the developers say:  "Yes, the Dalish are as myopic and bitter as we're portraying them."  It doesn't matter - at all - what you think.  The very same for the opposite. 

 

I hate the Dalish because I find them to be insulting to my studies on animistic tribal traditions - they are, to me, what a modern hipster "thinks" nature loving people's should be like.  The noble savage gone ludicrous.

 

I doubt anyone is under the impression that the Dalish aren't a fictional group; I also don't see the point in your post, aside from you making one snide remark after another. You don't need to take my opposing point of view so personally. I like the Dalish, while you hate them. I dislike how the developers handled the Dalish because the negative portrayals are always at the forefront of the games, and even the second to last novel that was released; I explained why I took issue with it. I wanted a more balanced, nuanced look at the Dalish.

 

That is not relevant - if the developers want to have Solas bring about the next golden age of elves - I've got two choices, roll my eyes and continue playing DA games or move on.

 

Chances are - I'll do the former so long as I'm not forced to play a Dalish (City Elf would be palletable) saving the elven people from... "whatever".  If they want to tell the "Dalish rebel and make homeland story."  My only hope is that they inform the consumer so I can opt out.

 

But unlike the mustache twirling villains you seem to make "Dalish haters" out to be - I actually couldn't care at all about what happens to them or how they are portrayed. 

 

I think you're confusing my issue with certain people who expressed homophobic and transphobic statements against other posters with my difference of opinion with people who don't share my views about fictional elements in a game. I'm friends with people who I disagree with; I don't take opposing views about fictional stories quite as personally as you seem to be doing with me.

 

My response to you is simply the fact that you seem to believe you have ownership of "The People" and that you, not the developers, are the authority on who they are and how they are portrayed and anything that doesn't fit into your view is reconning, or favoritism or whatever.

 

I must be the first person you've ever read who disagreed with the developers, then, since the concept seems to be unfamiliar to you.

 

Also - trying to discredit someone by suggesting you don't take them seriously holds no value to me - I don't know the real you, and I could care less about the opinion of someone named LobselVith8.  There's really no need to couch conversations you don't like with passive aggressive behavior.

 

There's also no need to make things personal with me simply because I don't share your views on the Dalish.

[Medhia_Nox]

@LobselVith8:  It's not an opposing viewpoint - you're saying the developers are wrong for their portrayal.  That's preposterous.  They can't be wrong.  You just don't like it.  Instead of saying:  "This might be who the Dalish are."  You fixate on what you like and say:  "This is an unfair portrayal."  It can't be an unfair portrayal.... it's whatever portrayal they want it to be.

 

And I already said I don't have a real opinion about the Dalish... apathy is far closer. 

 

How can anything be "personal"?  You're not actually named LobselVith8 and that isn't actually a photo of you is it?  Saying: "I don't know the real you"  is actually the opposite of personal. 

 

I'm not the one moved to post about the Dalish because of any strong feelings I have for, or against, them.

[LaughingBanana]

Or Islam.

 

Yeah, the only other philosophy/world view/faith that gets presented is the Qun.  Solas presents a surprisingly optimistic humanist philosophy - or whatever you call an elf that rejects his elfiness half the time. 

 

I think the Qun is inspired in part by the Islamic religion.

 

Of course not everything in it (especially considering how the Qunari treats sex, hahaha), but it does share some similarities.
 

[RepHope]

I think the Qun is inspired in part by the Islamic religion.

Of course not everything in it (especially considering how the Qunari treats sex, hahaha), but it does share some similarities.

Gaider once referred to them as "Islamic-Something-Borg" so the similarities are DEFINITELY intentional.

[Ahalvern]

LobselVith8:  The developers literally own the Dalish - they're not some real world minority group.

 

If the developers say:  "Yes, the Dalish are as myopic and bitter as we're portraying them."  It doesn't matter - at all - what you think.  The very same for the opposite. 

 

That's a strawman argument. We have been given the choice to play Dalish the two times there were options to choose races in this game. They created a whole culture and belief system for them, as they did for Dwarves and the Qunari. If they're showing blatant favouritism to one group we have the right to call it out. The writers aren't "gods", immune to criticism. Since the whole game is a creation of the people making them, we will of course not get angry not at the creation but the portrayal.

 

Not caring about it is problematic, as the whole game is built upon belief system, what faith means to one person and how a person can achieve his/her purpose despite the odds and biases stacked against them. We would like an equal and unbiased faith system and cultural varieties in this game. If the Dalish were meant to be portrayed as ***holes they would have made them into one with no complexity. As it turns out, either they're trying but failing or purposefully showing them in a bad light to prop up Chantrystianism.

[Kulyok]

I killed a 100-hour playthrough because I accidentally told Cassandra that yes, I believe in the Maker/that I was sent by fate, and from that moment on, everyone treated me as Andrastian and a Chantry believer. Ugh. There's no option to take Dorian's point of view, for example. So I reloaded, said "Don't know" to all faith inquiries, and my playthrough suddenly became much more comfortable.

 

I think the plot was well-built: sure, you were surrounded by Chantry forces, but saving the world may require even bigger sacrifices than working with the enemy. And you did have a chance to liberate mages and make things better.

 

What I'm worried about is that the game doesn't let you escape - you're trapped in Skyhold, and everyone says the Inquisition will continue(even though Mother Giselle and many other characters said it would be good for the Inquisition to put its sword away when the time comes). You don't have a single option to say "After Cory is dead, the Inquisition would be dissolved, and I'm leaving". That's the opposite of the Warden's fate, actually - all I wanted was for my Warden to remain in Ferelden with her friends, and instead, they made her disappear. Now all I want is for my Inquisitor to disappear - study the real elven past, find Solas, use the mark to enter the Black City, explore the Fade away from the Inquisition - and they wouldn't let me. Sigh.

[Captmorgan72]

The Inquisitor has a discussion with Josephine in Skyhold where they discuss whether or not to explain what actually happened, and the Inquisitor can tell her to make it clear that it was Justinia who helped him, not Andraste; Josephine also notes that this should pacify the Chantry.

Josephine subtly told me to say that it was Andraste that saved me after I told her I was going to tell them the truth. She reminded me that only a handful of people know the truth and that faith is what the people need. 

[Zyrious]

That's strawman argument. We have been a choice to play Dalish the two times there were options to choose races in this game. They created a whole culture and belief system for them, as they did for Dwarves and the Qunari. If they're showing blatant favouritism to one group we have the right to call it out. The writers aren't "gods", immune to criticism. Since the whole game is a creation of the people making them, we will of course not get angry not at the creation but the portrayal.

 

Not caring about it is problematic, as the whole game is built upon belief system, what faith means to one person and how a person can achieve his/her purpose despite the odds and biases stacked against them. We would like an equal and unbiased faith system and cultural varieties in this game. If the Dalish were meant to be portrayed as ***holes they would have made them into one with no complexity. As it turns out, either they're trying but failing or purposefully showing them in a bad light to prop up Chantrystianism.

Not quite. Just because a side is present doesn't mean it needs parallel or equal presentation . in Kotor/swtor you can be sith but their beliefs are clearly wrong' even if you can be a true adherent.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that even though thedas is a unique place' its foundation is middle ages Europe. Roughly 900-1100ad period. North chantry and south is analogous to the east-west schism of christianity. The qun invasion is analogous to the Muslim invasion of Europe and the qunari-tvinter war is a literal copy paste of the eastern roman wars with the Muslims, the only difference being no exalted march from the Southern chantry to help stave off the qun simulating the first crusade

.

There is a reason we have few if any pagans today. At this time paganism died out as christianity reformed and became a dominant force competing with Islam(qun). Only a few Germanic tribes kept pegan and were all eventually converted. The elves are analogous to the old tribes conquered by Rome, slowly their traditions faded, as did their religion. Them seeing that their religion is not all they thought it was and the chantry rising stronger than ever sticks to this foundation, with its own twists obviously.

[Wolfen09]

while we did try to deny the whole herald of andraste thing, we still wound up playing that role...  dont get me wrong, i understand that no matter what my inquisitor thinks, other people will still call him the herald.  probably the one thing about religion in the whole thing that bugged me was that...

 

anyway, the fact that the chantry was constantly up in your face is partially due to the herald thing, and the fact that the previous inquisition had very strong ties to the chantry, and this inquisition was even sanctioned by the chantry in the first place.  now, we didnt really get to fix any issues with the chantry until the end of the game, and even then i dont count it as fixing it.  the fact of the matter is, is that the chantry is in your face and you have to deal with it, maybe it wasnt as well written as the thought was, but this is a major issue for the people of the game universe...  the world of thedas is a lot less advanced than our world, by today's standards, they seem like a bunch of idiots, but for worlds like those, religion is everything to most people.  It does not surprise me at how big a role they tried to make it play.

 

btw, OP, europe was the most fanatical about religion for hundreds of years, even enough to send its countries soldiers to the middle east to fight holy wars... so before you bash america, look back at your own history and hold your tongue lest someone from the barbaric colonies comes and brings harm upon your teapot

[The Ascendant]

I enjoyed learning more about the Qun and allying with the Ben-Hassrath is a major historical event. The first alliance between the Qunari and a foreign power. I lament and mourn the Chargers, but the Qun demanded it.

[Zyrious]

while we did try to deny the whole herald of andraste thing, we still at poole...  dont get me wrong, i understand that no matter what my inquisitor thinks, other people will still call him the herald.  probably the one thing about religion in the whole thing that bugged me was that...

 

anyway, the fact that the chantry was constantly up in your face is partially due to the herald thing, and the fact that the previous inquisition had very strong ties to the chantry, and this inquisition was even sanctioned by the chantry in the first place.  now, we didnt really get to fix any issues with the chantry until the end of the game, and even then i dont count it as fixing it.  the fact of the matter is, is that the chantry is in your face and you have to deal with it, maybe it wasnt as well written as the thought was, but this is a major issue for the people of the game universe...  the world of thedas is a lot less advanced than our world, by today's standards, they seem like a bunch of idiots, but for worlds like those, religion is everything to most people.  It does not surprise me at how big a role they tried to make it play.

 

btw, OP, europe was the most fanatical about religion for hundreds of years, even enough to send its countries soldiers to the middle east to fight holy wars... so before you bash america, look back at your own history and hold your tongue lest someone from the barbaric colonies comes and brings harm upon your teapot

I would be careful lamenting the display of faith in Thedas as "primitive" as for many today faith is still an important thing. I myself believe and I liked that you could play a faithful character who isn't a nut and faces their doubts while maintaining their faith.

 

In fact one of the things this game really gets right is that sometimes facing doubt and new truths while maintaining your faith can make your faith stronger, not weaker. As Giselle puts it, "faith untested is weak". There are things that happen that question your faith, but also plenty that reinforce it, just like in real life. While not everything is as you thought, not all is false either.

 

I always play my DA characters as believers in the maker, this is the first time that it is not only rewarding but at times outright inspirational. Few media pieces treat this topic so well.

[Roamingmachine]

I would be careful lamenting the display of faith in Thedas as "primitive" as for many today faith is still an important thing. I myself believe and I liked that you could play a faithful character who isn't a nut and faces their doubts while maintaining their faith.

 

In fact one of the things this game really gets right is that sometimes facing doubt and new truths while maintaining your faith can make your faith stronger, not weaker. As Giselle puts it, "faith untested is weak". There are things that happen that question your faith, but also plenty that reinforce it, just like in real life. While not everything is as you thought, not all is false either.

 

I always play my DA characters as believers in the maker, this is the first time that it is not only rewarding but at times outright inspirational. Few media pieces treat this topic so well.

 

Good points here about faith.Have a +1. But here's the problem of how the game handles it (as i see it): While both elven and human faith get tested, the only devout faithful you have the option of playing is andrastian. The elven faith gets 3-4 lines in total and the dwarven one is all but ignored.I would have loved to have the experience you had but i am a polytheist and trying to play andrastian just feels....wrong at a deeply personal level.

[The Ascendant]

Faith is great coping mechanism in time of crisis. Remember these are people who live in a world full of monsters, dragons, evil magics and literal demons who exist without a doubt. The biggest threat to our own world is ourselves. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Good points here about faith.Have a +1. But here's the problem of how the game handles it (as i see it): While both elven and human faith get tested, the only devout faithful you have the option of playing is andrastian. The elven faith gets 3-4 lines in total and the dwarven one is all but ignored.I would have loved to have the experience you had but i am a polytheist and trying to play andrastian just feels....wrong at a deeply personal level.

 

Agreed. It's too one sided; it relentlessly tries to get you to lean a certain way. 

 

Lets hope the DLC isn't about meeting Andraste/the Maker and wiping his/her ass.

[Char]

I'm strongly atheist. Secular humanist if we're going to get technical, and I thought the game handled the topic really well.

[Addai]

 

I hate the Dalish because I find them to be insulting to my studies on animistic tribal traditions - they are, to me, what a modern hipster "thinks" nature loving people's should be like.  The noble savage gone ludicrous. 

 

Since when are the Dalish supposed to be savages, noble or otherwise? They're not animistic, either. They're polytheistic nomadic remnants of a once highly literate, highly cultured civilization. It sounds to me like you're hating something that isn't there to begin with.

 

I don't know if I agree that the developers are portraying the Dalish unfairly. I think they're portraying them as well as the condition of the city elves as in ever steepening decline. That's possibly a setup for a turnaround, so it just might be what the writers feel is necessary to have a place to start, story wise. I guess I also don't care if the more positive portrayals are hidden. A major theme of Thedas is that the Dalish are so misunderstood that some even doubt their existence, and they become the subject of wild stories that reflect the attitude of the teller more than reality.

[Ahalvern]

Not quite. Just because a side is present doesn't mean it needs parallel or equal presentation . in Kotor/swtor you can be sith but their beliefs are clearly wrong' even if you can be a true adherent.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that even though thedas is a unique place' its foundation is middle ages Europe. Roughly 900-1100ad period. North chantry and south is analogous to the east-west schism of christianity. The qun invasion is analogous to the Muslim invasion of Europe and the qunari-tvinter war is a literal copy paste of the eastern roman wars with the Muslims, the only difference being no exalted march from the Southern chantry to help stave off the qun simulating the first crusade

.

There is a reason we have few if any pagans today. At this time paganism died out as christianity reformed and became a dominant force competing with Islam(qun). Only a few Germanic tribes kept pegan and were all eventually converted. The elves are analogous to the old tribes conquered by Rome, slowly their traditions faded, as did their religion. Them seeing that their religion is not all they thought it was and the chantry rising stronger than ever sticks to this foundation, with its own twists obviously.

 

Yeah but this is a fantasy game, in which there are demons, dragons, magic, various fantastical races. I don't need it to mirror real life world history. Then it's just another game where the One True God Prevails All. I have faith in my private life, I just want to be able to roleplay a game believing in a culture's gods without it sounding completely wrong and laughable. Again, I had no problem with it in DA:O, I felt it equal to other faiths in terms of no bias. I really don't want them to make a game where one faith is the sensible one while others amount to worshipping mortal-ish beings resembling slavery.

[Addai]

Yeah but this is a fantasy game, in which there are demons, dragons, magic, various fantastical races. I don't need it to mirror real life world history. Then it's just another game where the One True God Prevails All. I have faith in my private life, I just want to be able to roleplay a game believing in a culture's gods without it sounding completely wrong and laughable. Again, I had no problem with it in DA:O, I felt it equal to other faiths in terms of no bias. I really don't want them to make a game where one faith is the sensible one while others amount to worshipping mortal-ish beings resembling slavery.

Worshipping the big dude who turned his back and stuck his fingers in his ears "lalalalala can't hear youuu" until his followers get sufficiently preachy and who stole some guy's wife who might actually be an archdemon is the sensible faith?

 

I would like to see elvhen culture restored, but safe to say reality is going to be messy and as messy for Andrastians as anyone.