207 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahalvern]

Worshipping the big dude who turned his back and stuck his fingers in his ears "lalalalala can't hear youuu" until his followers get sufficiently preachy and who stole some guy's wife who might actually be an archdemon is the sensible faith?

 

I would like to see elvhen culture restored, but safe to say reality is going to be messy and as messy for Andrastians as anyone.

 

I guess it's a matter of perspective. If you want to believe the Maker helped saved you in the thousand near death occurences you've had, you can believe it. It's established in the lore, he doesn't interfere in an anvil-on-your-head way. But as I mentioned before, you don't have that luxury with the elven faith. They stripped the mystery out of it, they're real, they've mostly been d*****bags, they loved being worshipped, they had their own personal elven slave guardians for Important Places.

 

It's a personal thing as well, I would be okay with worshipping a God who doesn't need to prove himself as opposed to a vain, selfish one who does. Since the revelations are most absolutely truths, I consider the elven faith botched. Feel free to disagree.

[Zyrious]

Yeah but this is a fantasy game, in which there are demons, dragons, magic, various fantastical races. I don't need it to mirror real life world history. Then it's just another game where the One True God Prevails All. I have faith in my private life, I just want to be able to roleplay a game believing in a culture's gods without it sounding completely wrong and laughable. Again, I had no problem with it in DA:O, I felt it equal to other faiths in terms of no bias. I really don't want them to make a game where one faith is the sensible one while others amount to worshipping mortal-ish beings resembling slavery.

But it already does mirror real life in many ways. If that's the story they choose to tell so be it. Also this would actually be the first game where monotheism is treated in a positive light. In almost all other fantasies polytheism is treated as the correct religion, especially elder scrolls. Often times monotheism is either mocked, rediculed, or ignored In Games and movies. This is a refreshing change of pace.

[Ahalvern]

But it already does mirror real life in many ways. If that's the story they choose to tell so be it. Also this would actually be the first game where monotheism is treated in a positive light. In almost all other fantasies polytheism is treated as the correct religion, especially elder scrolls. Often times monotheism is either mocked, rediculed, or ignored In Games and movies. This is a refreshing change of pace.

 

You may be right, but them doing it at the expense of the other religions bothers me. They can make it seem a respected and positive religion without making others look foolish in comparison.

 

And since they made the others look foolish, I'd like the Chantry faith to be ridiculed as well. Like Andraste murdering children.

 

Maybe not, but they need to have a dark secret that gets revealed in the next game for me to call it even.

[Addai]

I guess it's a matter of perspective. If you want to believe the Maker helped saved you in the thousand near death occurences you've had, you can believe it. It's established in the lore, he doesn't interfere in an anvil-on-your-head way. But as I mentioned before, you don't have that luxury with the elven faith. They stripped the mystery out of it, they're real, they've mostly been d*****bags, they loved being worshipped, they had their own personal elven slave guardians for Important Places.
 
It's a personal thing as well, I would be okay with worshipping a God who doesn't need to prove himself as opposed to a vain, selfish one who does. Since the revelations are most absolutely truths, I consider the elven faith botched. Feel free to disagree.

I suppose it is true that the Andrastians are left with more of their illusions, though I don't see that as superior. More like they're the primitive ones, though I suspect that all the Thedas religions are more interconnected than we can now see. I also think the elves still have a lot of mystery left. Can't say that the revelations are that far from what I already thought about the creators, and I'm really happy that we get to meet a few, with both of them we've met being very cool. I hope we'll get to meet more of them, either as positive figures or as villains.

My Dalish tend to be forward thinkers and quest-for-truth types anyway, so I guess that fits as well. I'm bracing for what will happen when more of the Dalish learn what we've learned in DAI. I suspect it will get worse for them before it gets better.

[EmissaryofLies]

I just hope that they do not become ME 3's Cerberus.

[Ahalvern]

I suppose it is true that the Andrastians are left with more of their illusions, though I don't see that as superior. More like they're the primitive ones, though I suspect that all the Thedas religions are more interconnected than we can now see. I also think the elves still have a lot of mystery left. Can't say that the revelations are that far from what I already thought about the creators, and I'm really happy that we get to meet a few, with both of them we've met being very cool. I hope we'll get to meet more of them, either as positive figures or as villains.

My Dalish tend to be forward thinkers and quest-for-truth types anyway, so I guess that fits as well. I'm bracing for what will happen when more of the Dalish learn what we've learned in DAI. I suspect it will get worse for them before it gets better.

 

Well... let's see in what way it'll get better. I find the options of them turning agnostic or to the Maker terrible choices, but continuing to worship the elven gods would be worse still. I'm very curious as to how they'll progress this particular story, now that they've chosen this path.

[Tielis]

You may be right, but them doing it at the expense of the other religions bothers me. They can make it seem a respected and positive religion without making others look foolish in comparison.

 

And since they made the others look foolish, I'd like the Chantry faith to be ridiculed as well. Like Andraste murdering children.

 

Maybe not, but they need to have a dark secret that gets revealed in the next game for me to call it even.

 

Thank you.  I love the elves and ancient elven culture, and I will continue to do so no matter how many skeletons they drag out of the closet.

 

But throughout the game I just wanted to deck every insipid Andrastean (no, I'm not calling Cassandra insipid, I do have a self-preservation instinct).  I mean, how can you not see through the whole "our god left us but he'll return once we've converted everyone" crap?  Do people really believe that?  

 

Ugh, this game made me believe more and more that people are just sheep, but humans moreso, since a lot of the elves seem to be a bit more open minded (except Sera).

 

And yes, I do realize that I've opened myself up to attacks against the elves.  Fire away, I refuse to take the bait.  

[Zyrious]

 

 

I suppose it is true that the Andrastians are left with more of their illusions, though I don't see that as superior. More like they're the primitive ones, though I suspect that all the Thedas religions are more interconnected than we can now see. I also think the elves still have a lot of mystery left. Can't say that the revelations are that far from what I already thought about the creators, and I'm really happy that we get to meet a few, with both of them we've met being very cool. I hope we'll get to meet more of them, either as positive figures or as villains.

My Dalish tend to be forward thinkers and quest-for-truth types anyway, so I guess that fits as well. I'm bracing for what will happen when more of the Dalish learn what we've learned in DAI. I suspect it will get worse for them before it gets better.

Again I feel compelled to point out one should be careful of labeling the religion based on Christianity as "primitive" or delusional. Let's try to avoid bringing RL intolerance here. And as far as in-game goes there's plenty to show that while the chantry has plenty of exaggerations and mistruths, it also is closer to the truth than some think though some of that is dependant on interpretation which goes back to this games central theme of faith.

[phaonica]

But throughout the game I just wanted to deck every insipid Andrastean (no, I'm not calling Cassandra insipid, I do have a self-preservation instinct).  I mean, how can you not see through the whole "our god left us but he'll return once we've converted everyone" crap?  Do people really believe that?  

 

How is that so different from "our gods don't answer us because they're imprisoned"? Either way, they are absent and there's no proof (previous to DAI's epilogue) they ever existed at all.

 

Not trying to attack. Genuinely curious.

[Tielis]

How is that so different from "our gods don't answer us because they're imprisoned"? Either way, they are absent and there's no proof (previous to DAI's epilogue) they ever existed at all.

 

Not trying to attack. Genuinely curious.

 

No, it's not intrinsically different.  

 

The difference is, this entire game builds the Chantry up while pulling the elven religion down.

[phaonica]

No, it's not intrinsically different.  

 

The difference is, this entire game builds the Chantry up while pulling the elven religion down.

 

I suppose. From my experience, it seems that no matter how the game "builds the Chantry up" it continues to be a really hard sell for a lot of players who insist that *of course* the Maker isn't real. Those who believe in the Maker are ridiculed for having no proof and being entirely faith-based while on the other hand players generally agree that the the Dalish gods could maybe, possibly have actually existed in some form. I don't know why that is.

[Addai]

Again I feel compelled to point out one should be careful of labeling the religion based on Christianity as "primitive" or delusional. Let's try to avoid bringing RL intolerance here. And as far as in-game goes there's plenty to show that while the chantry has plenty of exaggerations and mistruths, it also is closer to the truth than some think though some of that is dependant on interpretation which goes back to this games central theme of faith.

It's a fantasy religion so if people choose to identify with it for whatever reason, that's their own thing. But it is still fantasy. So, deal with it. /cassandra
 

Well... let's see in what way it'll get better. I find the options of them turning agnostic or to the Maker terrible choices, but continuing to worship the elven gods would be worse still. I'm very curious as to how they'll progress this particular story, now that they've chosen this path.

The thing is, I already saw their religion more like ancestor worship than a bowing the knee to an all-powerful being. They even talk about "honoring" the gods rather than worshipping them. You can still do that for the ones who deserve it. Flemeth refused to let Merrill bow to her. I consider that a good sign. Go Mythal.

[Lee80]

I thought the religious aspects of the game were annoying.  Not only is it forced on you, anytime you can question religion it's always just left to head cannon anyway.  There's never definitive proof that the Maker is real, nor is there definitive proof on what the elven Gods are/were.  It's all very in your face, but lets not make anything clear or certain.  Oh well, I just shrug most of it off anyway.  I do wish people would respect the inquisitor's desire to not be called the Herald though, but no dice.  

[Zyrious]

I suppose. From my experience, it seems that no matter how the game "builds the Chantry up" it continues to be a really hard sell for a lot of players who insist that *of course* the Maker isn't real. Those who believe in the Maker are ridiculed for having no proof and being entirely faith-based while on the other hand players generally agree that the the Dalish gods could maybe, possibly have actually existed in some form. I don't know why that is.

Technically both religions can be right in a way. In real life several of the germanic pantheons came to see their gods as "lesser gods" underneath the creator of the universe or the one true god as they evolved and eventually converted. Nordic in particular came to see their gods as having died to give way to the creator/true god. They may be going a similar route, especially given the strong parallels to our history in DA.

[EmissaryofLies]

I thought the religious aspects of the game were annoying.  Not only is it forced on you, anytime you can question religion it's always just left to head cannon anyway.  There's never definitive proof that the Maker is real, nor is there definitive proof on what the elven Gods are/were.  It's all very in your face, but lets not make anything clear or certain.  Oh well, I just shrug most of it off anyway.  I do wish people would respect the inquisitor's desire to not be called the Herald though, but no dice.  

 

That ridiculous title only made the Andrastians that much more obnoxious. I enjoyed being the Hero of Fereldan and the Champion of Kirkwall because those titles were earned. This Herald of Andraste nonsense is immediately stamped to your forehead no matter your character's background or race. I suppose it's the arrogance of it that irritates me the most.

 

I get that the Andrastians are desperate for their absentee god to show up but do I need to hear about it for a good 95% of the game?

[phaonica]

It also seems, in my experience, that players are more inclined to have no interest in their characters worshiping any god(s), known or unknown.

[phaonica]

I think it did a good job.  I appreciate that Bioware has not jumped on the Ubisoft bandwagon and actually treats religious subjects as ones worthy of respect/consideration.

 

I agree. It seems that in DA, one is given the chance to have their character's religion be a positive part of their identity. Yes, the religions in DA have their share of challenge and corruption, but DA does also depict some positives to religion, I think.

[Zyrious]

I agree. It seems that in DA, one is given the chance to have their character's religion be a positive part of their identity. Yes, the religions in DA have their share of challenge and corruption, but DA does also depict some positives to religion, I think.

Its nice having a game where faith and religion can actually be a positive thing and playing a faithful char can be rewarding instead of insulting or demeaning. Few games handle it so well. I imagine some on the writing staff are religious themselves and wanted at least one franchise where the subject matter is handled respectfully.

[_Aine_]

The "humanization" or de-godification (?lol) would make absolute sense if the PC was expected to play more directly amongst the gods in a future game though actually.  If it were condensing things to the point that they were familiar and somewhat attainable that is.  *shrug*  I highly doubt it though, I may be grasping at straws to try to explain away the dis-ease at the treatment of the elves in general.  First they make them ugly (personal perspective here) and then they take away (to some degree) their divinity... meanwhile, in the game it is very difficult AS an elf to explain your actions AS an elf, and especially when talking to humans who apologize for the treatment of the elves while the elves are mostly full on hating themselves.   I would like to think that they are working up to something with it.  It's my monthly moment of optimism.  It will pass.  

 

 

 

 

I hate the implication of now that the elven gods are fleshed out so they don't make sense as gods anymore, while recordings related to Andraste and Maker still keep some of their mystery. It just gives nourishment to the thought that elven gods were creations too, albeit more powerful kind. I would have preferred if they kept all the faiths in this game unique and mysterious and valid, not possibly related.

[myahele]

I like how it kept me guessing up until Corypheus told me it was all an accident- a fluke that I ended up getting the anchor.

[Ahalvern]

The thing is, I already saw their religion more like ancestor worship than a bowing the knee to an all-powerful being. They even talk about "honoring" the gods rather than worshipping them. You can still do that for the ones who deserve it. Flemeth refused to let Merrill bow to her. I consider that a good sign. Go Mythal.

 

Sadly we don't know what will happen with Flemythal now that her soul is stolen/transferred to Spoiler Person. Still she hardly cared about elves, was more busy being mysterious and speaking in riddles. She helped our heroes in most dire circumstances, so that's something. It's all very complicated, but yeah, now that it seems the elven gods are going to be a big part of the storyline I wonder what it'll be like to meet them. I'm dreading the worst. If we don't get to meet them it will not resolve anything and leave the Dalish faith in a s***tty place.

 

Technically both religions can be right in a way. In real life several of the germanic pantheons came to see their gods as "lesser gods" underneath the creator of the universe or the one true god as they evolved and eventually converted. Nordic in particular came to see their gods as having died to give way to the creator/true god.

 

See that's what I'm talking about when I say I hate how they've invalidated them as gods. They resemble more powerful creations instead of gods in the broadest sense of the term. It bears little difference to worshipping a totem. Only, they have more power and command and having them walk around on Thedas again will feel no different than slavery for elven people. Unless they would be content not to be worshipped? But from everything we've seen they would prefer to be worshipped. This just creates so many questions, not enough answers.

 

They may be going a similar route, especially given the strong parallels to our history in DA.

 

I would not like this kind of outcome. I had hoped all religions would make sense on their own, without implying any connections between them. It feels disrespectful to other cultures in this game if they go with the One God route.

[raging_monkey]

I just hope that they do not become ME 3's Cerberus.

you know mages and dalish are cerberus

[Uccio]

you know mages and dalish are cerberus

 

 

I think it might even be too late, Tevinter Imperium seems to be a strong advocate for that role.