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[Basher of Glory]

After all the chats with Sten, many DA II runs and now the conversations with Bull I still have not made up my mind about the Qun.

In some ways it sounds like a "lawful neutral" philosophy, in other aspects it looks more like North Korea.

 

I realize, that the Tal-Vashoth abandoned the Qun, but I don't understand, why they are automatically become raiders.

Is this just the way, they are regarded by the "true" Qunari? Can't they just be "normal" citizens somewhere else like the surface dwelling dwarves?

 

In DA I the Qunari Inquisitor answers several times "...you realize, I am Qunari...". Shouldn't (s)he answer "....I am Tal-Vashoth"?

 

Opinions? Insights?

[Rainbow Wyvern]

The Inquisitor isn't Tal-Vashoth, they're Vashoth. Born outside of the Qun. Also, qunari is the name of the race as well as the name for followers of the Qun.

 

And Tal-Vashoth probably do become citizens (if possible. They're still giant probably-horned people.) but we don't see/hear of it much because killing them is apparently more interesting. They're also probably going to be chaotic people since they are no longer restricted by the Qun and can decide things for themselves. Thus the large number of mercs/raiders/whatnot.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Don't feel bad TC. The writers haven't made up their minds about the Qunari either.

[Basher of Glory]

Don't feel bad TC. The writers haven't made up their minds about the Qunari either.

 

What do you mean? We see a DLC in which they are

 

1) saviours of the world

or

2) worse than Coryphaeus could ever be?

 

BTW... what is "TC"?

[joejoe099]

What do you mean? We see a DLC in which they are

 

1) saviours of the world

or

2) worse than Coryphaeus could ever be?

 

BTW... what is "TC"?

 

They started as a totalitarian theocracy, minus the god but keeping the priests that conquered half the freaking world in less than a decade through nothing but sheer force. Every one oft them we've run into was cold, knew their job and limits, and never questioned their place. Suddenly Iron Bull comes from no where just constantly making dick and violence jokes, acting like a frat boy, and says the Qun is more of a guideline rather than rule. There's also the whole 'qun accepting krem' thing that was another post entirely, I don't know if that was shut down or something.

[Geth Supremacy]

Don't feel bad TC. The writers haven't made up their minds about the Qunari either.

 

Truth! This is the answer.

 

[Basher of Glory]

They started as a totalitarian theocracy, minus the god but keeping the priests that conquered half the freaking world in less than a decade through nothing but sheer force. Every one oft them we've run into was cold, knew their job and limits, and never questioned their place. Suddenly Iron Bull comes from no where just constantly making dick and violence jokes, acting like a frat boy, and says the Qun is more of a guideline rather than rule. There's also the whole 'qun accepting krem' thing that was another post entirely, I don't know if that was shut down or something.

Especially Bull's statements made me think again...

 

"...Cole would be killed without a second thought..."

"...Sera would live a soulless life in some backyard..."

etc.

 

So, it sounds more and more like totalitarianism than anything else, perhaps comparable with that what we have today ...to avoid political expressions... with these bearded guys. 

[katerinafm]

Their philosophies, well, most of them anyway, sound good in theory, but if you listen to Iron Bull and Cole's banter, you get a glimpse of how much the qun can mess up a kid growing up. Psychological abuse and brain washing right from the get-go, and all the qunari don't see anything wrong with it because it's all they know. If the qun was something that a consenting adult pursued, it'd be very different.

[Kurogane335]

After all the chats with Sten, many DA II runs and now the conversations with Bull I still have not made up my mind about the Qun.

In some ways it sounds like a "lawful neutral" philosophy, in other aspects it looks more like North Korea.

 

I realize, that the Tal-Vashoth abandoned the Qun, but I don't understand, why they are automatically become raiders.

Is this just the way, they are regarded by the "true" Qunari? Can't they just be "normal" citizens somewhere else like the surface dwelling dwarves?

 

In DA I the Qunari Inquisitor answers several times "...you realize, I am Qunari...". Shouldn't (s)he answer "....I am Tal-Vashoth"?

 

Opinions? Insights?

 

Honestly, most of the Qun (as completed by Bull) seems right (at least, a better society than, say, Tevinter IMHO). It seems alien and terrible to most of us (IRL speaking) because it is not the path that human societies followed for thousand of years, even if I believed that they could have at some point in ancient time. But such a stringent set of rules has to come from something. If, as I suspect, the Kossith were actually Dragon worshippers (or at least that those which would become Qunari were) then they could have made a far too greater use of the Dragon's blood, thus transforming themselves, and more importantly, losing themselves into the blood-lust that stem from it.

 

Therefore, since the Qunari have a breeding program, this blood-lust is probably still a thing among the Antaam (the army). And most of the Tal-Vashoth are from the Antaam, if only because, as in all military in the world, there will be soldiers unhappy with their stranding in the society and who would want to rule their people. And since the Qunari society seems to be able to prevent it (possibly because the Arishok and higher echelons of the Antaam are selected among the most fervent Followers of the Qun) the disfranchised soldiers doesn't posses much knowledge outside of killing and when they turn their back on the Qun, they try to inflict as much violence to a society they have ended despised as they can.

 

This is also why Salit, a Ben-Hassrath, wanted to sell the list of Qunari agents : to make the Qun suffer. In fact, I believe that some Tal-Vashoth became such because they felt that the Qun wasn't doing enough to propagate itself since the end of the Qunari Wars. They probably believed that they were suffering for no purpose since the leaders weren't unleashing the might of the Qunari on the world again. I think that most Tal-Vashoth are simply unable to have a "bigger picture" vision of the world and the Qun, at least at first, and that's why they turn so violent.

 

Obviously, not all the Tal-Vashoth are like this, otherwise there wouldn't be any Vashoth or companies such as the Valo-Kas; Some of them are honourable and truly believe that the Qun isn't as benevolent as they were told (like the Inquisitor parents if you play a Qunari) and they could actually try to create something, given enough time and some support from the powers of Thedas (honestly, I was so sad that my Inquisitor couldn't met the Valo-Kas and convince them to create something more than a simple mercenary company during my first save).

[hazmatzak]

About the term "Qunari"; consider this seasonal analogue: what is a "yam"?

When people (in the US and Canada at least) use the word, there is no confusion about the object in question, but for the "wrong" reasons. Those yams aren't really yams. There's a clear but trivial history that doesn't click with most people. It's rarely worth the effort to clarify.

[Basher of Glory]

Honestly, most of the Qun (as completed by Bull) seems right (at least, a better society than, say, Tevinter IMHO). It seems alien and terrible to most of us (IRL speaking) because it is not the path that human societies followed for thousand of years, even if I believed that they could have at some point in ancient time. But such a stringent set of rules has to come from something. If, as I suspect, the Kossith were actually Dragon worshippers (or at least that those which would become Qunari were) then they could have made a far too greater use of the Dragon's blood, thus transforming themselves, and more importantly, losing themselves into the blood-lust that stem from it.

 

Therefore, since the Qunari have a breeding program, this blood-lust is probably still a thing among the Antaam (the army). And most of the Tal-Vashoth are from the Antaam, if only because, as in all military in the world, there will be soldiers unhappy with their stranding in the society and who would want to rule their people. And since the Qunari society seems to be able to prevent it (possibly because the Arishok and higher echelons of the Antaam are selected among the most fervent Followers of the Qun) the disfranchised soldiers doesn't posses much knowledge outside of killing and when they turn their back on the Qun, they try to inflict as much violence to a society they have ended despised as they can.

 

This is also why Salit, a Ben-Hassrath, wanted to sell the list of Qunari agents : to make the Qun suffer. In fact, I believe that some Tal-Vashoth became such because they felt that the Qun wasn't doing enough to propagate itself since the end of the Qunari Wars. They probably believed that they were suffering for no purpose since the leaders weren't unleashing the might of the Qunari on the world again. I think that most Tal-Vashoth are simply unable to have a "bigger picture" vision of the world and the Qun, at least at first, and that's why they turn so violent.

 

Obviously, not all the Tal-Vashoth are like this, otherwise there wouldn't be any Vashoth or companies such as the Valo-Kas; Some of them are honourable and truly believe that the Qun isn't as benevolent as they were told (like the Inquisitor parents if you play a Qunari) and they could actually try to create something, given enough time and some support from the powers of Thedas (honestly, I was so sad that my Inquisitor couldn't met the Valo-Kas and convince them to create something more than a simple mercenary company during my first save).

 

If I understood correctly:

 

Soldiers, who desert and form kind of a "revolutionary militia" to fight the existing state, would be comparable to the "Tal-Vashoth", right?

[Plague Doctor D.]

Well,the way i understood it was:

The Tal-Vashoth we fight in DA2(and the majority of them in general,i guess) still believe in the Qun,but simply werent happy with their lot in life,so they left.

And since the Qun says that Tal-Vashoth are a bunch of murdering raiders,they become a bunch of murdering raiders.

Thats why Maraas was such an insult to the Qun.Even as a Tal-Vashoth he refused to act like the Qun said he should.

 

But thats just my interpretation,i could be way off.(And in things like these i usually am^^)

[Navasha]

Also remember that the Tal-Vashoth are deserters from the Qun, and as such were born and bred under its messed up policies.    They are basically damaged beyond help by the time they desert.    They didn't have any kind of real upbringing.   Those in the military are trained to fight and kill without mercy, they are taught nothing else.   So when one of them gets an inkling of individualism and leaves, they still don't know how to do anything else, hence fighting in mercenary companies is about the only way for them to survive.

 

The army is mostly the only branch that sees much outside of Qun lands so that's why we run into those deserters.    The Qun secret-police pretty much watch and quell any rebellious thought in their own lands.   

[TeraBat]

I never really interpreted Iron Bull as being gung-ho for the Qun; ever. He was happiest when hanging out with the Chargers, and paid lip service to the ideals of the Qun. But he never had the arrogance that Sten or the Arishok did; that his way was the right way and you were too ignorant to see that. Bull reminds me of a lot of people I've known who have left their childhood faith behind. There's a moment where they're on their way out, but haven't fully left yet; and they answer questions about their faith in much the same way that Iron Bull discusses the Qun. That's why I always tell him to save the Chargers - I'm not impressed with the Qunari as allies, and Iron Bull will, in the long run, be happier as Tal-Vashoth. 

 

If Qunari society reminds me of anything, it's Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Not only does everyone get their proper place in the social order, but society has been actively constructed to make you viciously unhappy if you step outside your bounds. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

It is, to me a communist society where your job, place in it is decided for you based on your aptitude. You don't have hopes and dreams because it is pointless to want to be other than you are. You were bred for a certain role and, you will be that or Ben Hassrah. I'm sure Tal Vashoth would integrated into other cultuires if they could but, looking as they do makes it difficult so, out of necessity, they are thieves, mercenaries and, the like.

 

As for the inquisitor being Qunari, I take that as only his race, and since he was a mercenary at the conclave, my Qunari Quizzy is Tal Vashoth, a rather lawful one as Iron Bull becomes if you let him save the Chargers. A Tal Vashoth that doen't think of themselves as an outlaw, or anti Qunari, one made such by circumstance. Quizzy never knew the Qun until he was old enough to know he didn't want it, Bull only left it to save his chargers.

[myahele]

I always thought the Qun reminded my of the society in "The Giver"

 

As for Tal-Vasoth becoming bandits I thinks its because fighting is what they and is easy money as a result.

[Basher of Glory]

Do you think that the remaining leaders of the DA II Qunari would have condoned the Arishok's actions

or would he rather be seen as a zealot who lost every reference to the "True Qun"?

[Wiggs Magee]

Bull/Solas banter highlights that the reason that many Tal-Vashoth go raider is because for the entirity of their lives every single aspect of it has been decided for them by someone else. When they're thrown into an enviroment where suddenly they can make decisions for themselves, something so alien to them its hard for us to truly grasp the shock they go about bonkers.

Me personnally? I despise the Qun for the sole reason that they believe it should be forced on others in other regions, I like Iron Bull but the one thing that always kept me from fully becoming attached to the character is that deep down, he is working towards the goal for the Quanri to wage a war of cultural genocide against the entire world resulting in atleast millions of deaths (atleast unless he also goes TS)

[Pewps]

After all the chats with Sten, many DA II runs and now the conversations with Bull I still have not made up my mind about the Qun.

In some ways it sounds like a "lawful neutral" philosophy, in other aspects it looks more like North Korea.

 

I realize, that the Tal-Vashoth abandoned the Qun, but I don't understand, why they are automatically become raiders.

Is this just the way, they are regarded by the "true" Qunari? Can't they just be "normal" citizens somewhere else like the surface dwelling dwarves?

 

In DA I the Qunari Inquisitor answers several times "...you realize, I am Qunari...". Shouldn't (s)he answer "....I am Tal-Vashoth"?

 

Opinions? Insights?

 

Play through Mark of the Assassin. If Tallis doesn't make you hate the Qunari simply by associating her and her horrific goblin face with the Qun, then I don't know what could make up your mind.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

I duno.. this is starting to sound like disent.. i may have to call reeducators.   

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Do you think that the remaining leaders of the DA II Qunari would have condoned the Arishok's actions

or would he rather be seen as a zealot who lost every reference to the "True Qun"?

SPOILER: If you gave Isabella to the Arishok, then in DAI, ask Varric about him, you hear he lost the Tome of Koslun again, then faced the Qunari equivalent of a court marshal so, no the didn't approve of his actions at all.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

^ So he is the Qune equivelent of Sgt Bilko?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

perhaps comparable with that what we have today ...to avoid political expressions... with these bearded guys.

Cute.

[Ashagar]

Some of what I hear about the Qun gives me heavy 1984 vibes, they have what is basically thought police watching everyone as well as the ministries of truth and love.

[atamajakki]

Why Tal-Vashoth go crazy: The Qun is all-encompassing; it has an answer for every aspect of a Qunari's life, and has governed every moment of their existence from birth onward. Obedience to the Qun isn't just a social virtue, it's been bred into the populace through generations of selective reproduction. For a being to go Tal-Vashoth is to live without a structure that has literally shaped everything they have ever said and done, and to go against hundreds of years' worth of instinct. Many of them aren't just rebels, they've effective gone feral.

 

Alternatively, you could understand that the Qun has a damn good reason to say "everyone who tries to leave the Qun becomes a craaazy maniac!" and remember that we've seen perfectly reasonable Tal-Vashoth in DA2.

 

Why Adaar says they're Qunari: The average person knows that a Qunari is a big grey horned person who is scary as hell and wants to conquer the world. They don't know a damn thing about the Qun itself or the individuals within it, they likely can't divorce the notion of 'Qunari' from the species, and they couldn't care less what a Vashoth is.