63 réponses à ce sujet

[Lucky Thirteen]

I agree with what a lot of people are saying about qunari going crazy because all their life they had everything decided for them.

 

But consider this. All the good, peaceful qunari that leave the Qun and don't go crazy probably don't draw as much attention as the ones that go all out and start killing and raiding everything.

 

Also, I think there is a factor that a person freeing themselves from such an establishment, only to be rejected by the one they wish to be apart of, the one they had thought would be so much more free thinking and open minded, can have very negative effect on that person's attitude about the world. I can imagine many trying to lead a good life at first, only to be treated like a monster on sight before anyone even bothers to get know them.

 

Thus groups can become a vital thing. Either they all cave together to just become criminals, or they support each other to stay on a relatively good path despite the crap all the other races throw at them.

[Ashagar]

Hence how you get groups like the mercenary group that the qunari Inquisitor came form with a good enough rep for members to be hired as guards for the conclave by the chantry.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Hence how you get groups like the mercenary group that the qunari Inquisitor came form with a good enough rep for members to be hired as guards for the conclave by the chantry.

 

I like to think the Inquisitor being Vashoth is extremely important for the transition for a lot of them. The inquisitor is more worldly as a result but at the same time knows some Qun stuff and can be very understanding. I always have my qunari inquisitor take beating Iron Bull with a stick very seriously and I imagine she has a list of stages qunari go through after they leave the Qun. Just Iron Bull is a tough one cause he doesn't exactly leave willingly.

 

edit: Qunari Inquisitor to Iron Bull : Join me on the Tal-Vashoth side. MWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

edit2: Also, remember Maraas. He was cool and not crazy. Not completely anyways.

[JnEricsonx]

I wish I could have recruited Kejotan in DA2.   I really need to do a Qunari Mage playthrough.  I was going to make that my original one, basically freak everyone out by their savior being a Qunari and Mage to boot.

[Basher of Glory]

Play through Mark of the Assassin. If Tallis doesn't make you hate the Qunari simply by associating her and her horrific goblin face with the Qun, then I don't know what could make up your mind.

Of course I played "MotA" but - tbh - didn't care too much about the story.

 

I remember that Tallis was a Qunari spy of some sorts and that they had ...differences within their organization. I saw it as one group among many and thus, I didn't project their actions over the entire Qun.

 

Uhm... I remember, too, that I downloaded the first mod which changed Talli's face into something... not so goblin-like

[Lucrece]

Well, Solas the ancient Dread Wolf seems to think the Qunari are savage by nature and only restrained by religious philosophies like the Qun.

 

Look at Sten for example, he woke up and went berserk on a family who saved him. And if Bull's suspicions that Qunari might have some dragon blood in them happens to be true, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Cette]

Well,the way i understood it was:
The Tal-Vashoth we fight in DA2(and the majority of them in general,i guess) still believe in the Qun,but simply werent happy with their lot in life,so they left.
And since the Qun says that Tal-Vashoth are a bunch of murdering raiders,they become a bunch of murdering raiders.
Thats why Maraas was such an insult to the Qun.Even as a Tal-Vashoth he refused to act like the Qun said he should.

But thats just my interpretation,i could be way off.(And in things like these i usually am^^)

That was more or less my take away. Their society beats a certain order and structure into them so hard that even when they rebel against they do so in a specific way as expected of them.

We see a pretty limited amount of them that break that cycle.

[Kurogane335]

If I understood correctly:

 

Soldiers, who desert and form kind of a "revolutionary militia" to fight the existing state, would be comparable to the "Tal-Vashoth", right?

In my mind, more or less, expect that most "savage" Tal-Vashoth don't have an ideology that sustains their actions (or maybe their actual lack of ideology evolve in a paradoxical ideology which reject every and all ideology and rules than could be imposed to them.

 

Do you think that the remaining leaders of the DA II Qunari would have condoned the Arishok's actions

or would he rather be seen as a zealot who lost every reference to the "True Qun"?

 If you talk with Varric about that -at least as a Qunari Inquisitor- he tell you that apparently, the Arishok from DAII was condemned or at least disavowed for what he did in Kirkwall, because the Qunari actively didn't want to wage a war with the rest of Thedas, as of yet (you have this option if you killed the Arishok, but it is canon that Sten became the new Arishok, my guess is that the previous one was demoted to a less important role if he survived).

[SwobyJ]

Kossith require a better solution for their problems (no matter what lore BW gives us about them being 'dragonish') than the Qun.

 

I don't care if their land is an utter utopia. It isn't worth it.

 

The Qun is utter bullshit and I challenge Bioware to change my mind on it, as its actually the single case where I cannot support something in a BW game, in the slightest. And I'm even an ITer that picks Destroy that can understand picking Synthesis.

[Dermain]

Kossith require a better solution for their problems (no matter what lore BW gives us about them being 'dragonish') than the Qun.

 

I don't care if their land is an utter utopia. It isn't worth it.

 

The Qun is utter bullshit and I challenge Bioware to change my mind on it, as its actually the single case where I cannot support something in a BW game, in the slightest. And I'm even an ITer that picks Destroy that can understand picking Synthesis.

 

Given your history of posting vitriolic things about the Qun that's an impossble challenge.

[Reznore57]

It's highly possible the Qunari are not a "normal" race .

They were something else (maybe elves , I saw a video where a qunInquisitor has the same experience as an ElfInquisitor in the "Crossroad" with Morrigan .Humans don't react well to the place) and I guess those elves started to drink tons of dragon blood.

It's possible they were cast away , it seems dragon were a bit sacred for ancient elves.

 

I suppose after years and years of dragon blood , they suffered mutations.Horns , getting bigger , and possible a tendancy to turn savage and very brutal.

To keep this in check the Qun was created .The Qun is all about mastery of the self after all.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It's highly possible the Qunari are not a "normal" race .

They were something else (maybe elves , I saw a video where a qunInquisitor has the same experience as an ElfInquisitor in the "Crossroad" with Morrigan .Humans don't react well to the place) and I guess those elves started to drink tons of dragon blood.

It's possible they were cast away , it seems dragon were a bit sacred for ancient elves.

 

I suppose after years and years of dragon blood , they suffered mutations.Horns , getting bigger , and possible a tendancy to turn savage and very brutal.

To keep this in check the Qun was created .The Qun is all about mastery of the self after all.

 

Reading the Codex entry on Tal-Vashoth, I believe this to be the case as well. Sounds to me like the species have an aggression problem, and the Qun was the most successful creation at reining them in. However, that's kind of the problem with it as as well. It's tailored to the Qunari species and Par Vollen society, and so it's not really compatible with the rest of Thedas. It needs to modernize/reform.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Well, Solas the ancient Dread Wolf seems to think the Qunari are savage by nature and only restrained by religious philosophies like the Qun.

 

But Solas says a lot of things that don't always seem quite right. He easily falls victim to his own emotions, is flawed, and clearly has a difficult time with change. What he probably knew as Qunari in his day was a very, very long time ago.

 

 

It's highly possible the Qunari are not a "normal" race .

They were something else (maybe elves , I saw a video where a qunInquisitor has the same experience as an ElfInquisitor in the "Crossroad" with Morrigan .Humans don't react well to the place) and I guess those elves started to drink tons of dragon blood.

It's possible they were cast away , it seems dragon were a bit sacred for ancient elves.

 

I suppose after years and years of dragon blood , they suffered mutations.Horns , getting bigger , and possible a tendancy to turn savage and very brutal.

To keep this in check the Qun was created .The Qun is all about mastery of the self after all.

 

 

One of the insults cory has in the final battle, is saying that the Qunari are not a race at all, they are a mistake. I was thinking maybe something was actually behind what he said and not just random insult. Like ancient Tevinter did something ages ago that the current day Tevinters now really regret. 

[Basher of Glory]

I suppose after years and years of dragon blood , they suffered mutations.Horns , getting bigger , and possible a tendancy to turn savage and very brutal.

To keep this in check the Qun was created .The Qun is all about mastery of the self after all.

 

This could refer to asian techniques of mastery of the self.

 

I must disagree.

 

If  I understood one thing, from what all the NPCs in the DA-games said about the Qun, then it was that about self-determination and self realization:

 

Both are completely absent.

 

They don't master themselves, they become mastered by (the enforcers of) the Qun.

 

This is why - many posters here confirmed this - the Tal-Vashoth tend to be savage respectively totally purposeless, because they simply don't know

"how to master something" by using own decisions, talents, will.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This is why - many posters here confirmed this - the Tal-Vashoth tend to be savage respectively totally purposeless, because they simply don't know

"how to master something" by using own decisions, talents, will.

 

Nobody has "confirmed" that, they've only speculated it, in assumptions that largely come across as a denial that the T-V were actually better off under the Qun than free from its influence (something that opponents would not want to accept).

 

Remember Sten from Origins? When he was rescued by some farmers and realized his sword was lost, he killed them all in a fit of rage. Not a Tal Vashoth who did that, actual follower of the Qun. And from the sounds of it, his actions were as wrongful under the Qun as they would be considered anywhere else, so blindly following his religion may have still benefited him.

 

So yeah, there's some weight to the "Qunari (species) have an inherent aggression issue" explanation. In-game Codex further supports it.

[Cette]

Nobody has "confirmed" that, they've only speculated it, in assumptions that largely come across as a denial that the T-V were actually better off under the Qun than free from its influence (something that opponents would not want to accept).

 

Remember Sten from Origins? When he was rescued by some farmers and realized his sword was lost, he killed them all in a fit of rage. Not a Tal Vashoth who did that, actual follower of the Qun. And from the sounds of it, his actions were as wrongful under the Qun as they would be considered anywhere else, so blindly following his religion may have still benefited him.

 

So yeah, there's some weight to the "Qunari (species) have an inherent aggression issue" explanation. In-game Codex further supports it.

Ok so the Qunari are Vulcans and the Tal Vashoth are Romulans?

[Kurogane335]

Ok so the Qunari are Vulcans and the Tal Vashoth are Romulans?

I don't think so (even if I'm not a specialist of Stark Trek universe). It's more a matter of how the Followers of the Qun understand choices. As I understand the Qun, it isn't that one as never the choice, but more that the choices that are available to one depend strictly of previous choices, and usually, one set of choices will almost mechanically led to the other, and the set of choices which are outside one "reach" are supposedly provided by other Qunari : a warrior doesn't need to make his food when in Qun lands because a baker will do it for him, for instance.

 

An example :

 

There is a group of 5 children under a Tamassran. One was breed to be a worker and is female ("A"), two were breed to be warriors and are male ("B" and "C"), one was breed to be a priest ("D") and is female, one was breed to be worker and is male ("E").

 

During childhood, those children will make choices, both based on what they prefer in life, but also their personalities, so when they are 8 years old, we can have the following :

-"A" happens to prefer cooking over farming or fishing, always making the choice to attend baking courses, the Tamassran take note of that and orientated her toward this course of action

-"B" and "C" are both willing to partook in their warrior's training, but "B" isn't interested in more than the simple training, commanding and observations aren't to his likes, he makes the choice to eschew those to only train himself with the weapons, while "C" actually like the "ranger" training

-"D" is extremely serious in her studies and seems to be especially found of the complexity of the Qun sacred texts and interpretations; her Tamassran thus think she may be more fitted to the Ben-Hassrath than Tamassran

-"E" isn't interested in the manual labour but show great interest when it comes to the priesthood studies; also "E" doesn't really know if (s)he is a boy or a girl; the Tamassran make the choice to guide "E" toward the place he would be the more productive for the Qun, which happens to be the priesthood, therefore "E" is guided to assume that she is a girl, even if her body is the one of a boy. Also "E" seems to take a liking in learning how to help others discover who they really are.

 

Finally, least make another time-skip to when they are 22 :

 

-"A" is a baker and she makes food for the inhabitants of a settlement on Seheron; almost all of their choices are related to her work : how to cook what i was given by the fishermen ? What food use to up the morale of the inhabitants after a Vints' raid ? etc.

-"B" is a a Karasaad, a simple rank soldier, and his choice are mainly : How do I improve myself ? You note that the range of question and therefore choices is less important.

-"C" is a Sten in the Beresaad, and therefore, he has to make some choices : Does he learn the Common to better help the Antaam ? Should he trust those locals who hate the enemies he faces ? How could he ensure the victory of the Antaam ? etc.

-"D" is a philosopher, she has to think about the Qun itself : What does it means to be Viddathari ? To be a Qunari ? Should I treat foreigners this way, or this one ? Does this rule is actually too stringent and that one too lenient ? There is an extremely great amount of questions here.

-"E" is a Tamassaran; she has kids to teach, and it is a great responsibility : should she strictly guide the kids ? Or let them more freedom ? How can she be sure that she is making the better choices for the kid's future ? One more, there is a lot of questions and choices here.

 

Now, imagine that either of those five would turn its back on the Qun. Which would be the more probable ? I would say the soldiers, because they can be sent away from most of the Qunari for a long time. If the soldiers turn Tal-Vashoth, most of them don't know better than to kill because they never experienced a broad set of choics and questions in their lives -obviously, the higher the soldier is ranked, the more he has to make choices, and the more he will be able to become a correct Gray One and not a savage.

 

A Baker could turn Gray One, but it seems unlikely in most circumstances, because she would live sheltered in the Qunari lands. Nonetheless, should she become a Vashoth, she would either join the nearest band of "savages" and be kept as nothing more than a sex slave, or would manage to reach "correct" Gray Ones, and makes her life better, maybe.

 

A priest, either Ben-Hassrath or Tamassran wouldn't ever end with the "savages" because he/she would far too educated and used to various choices and questions and they would probably end as the core of a "correct" Tal-Vashoth group.

 

AT least, that how I think it would happen. Until we actually go to the Qunari lands to learn directly how they live without having to resort to the Antaam (or a Ben-Hassrath far from home), I would abide by this.

[Basher of Glory]

Impressive.

 

You mentioned frequently, that they were bred.

 

What would qualify a female Qunari to become a "breedmother"?

 

Is there a correct occupational title for these females?

[TeraBat]

Well, Solas the ancient Dread Wolf seems to think the Qunari are savage by nature and only restrained by religious philosophies like the Qun.

 

 

Whut?

 

Every time Solas opens his mouth about the Qun, it's to criticize how fully it stifles free thought. Bring him along with you and listen to his banter with Iron Bull; or even better, take him along with you on Demands of the Qun. I've never once gotten from him that he's in any way okay with the Qun (though I have only played elf and human, so he may have other things to say if I roll up a qunari). 

[atamajakki]

Impressive.
 
You mentioned frequently, that they were bred.
 
What would qualify a female Qunari to become a "breedmother"?
 
Is there a correct occupational title for these females?

Breeder isn't a role in the Qun; it falls to the Tamassrans to pair up other Qunari and have them breed for desirable traits.

[Basher of Glory]

Breeder isn't a role in the Qun; it falls to the Tamassrans to pair up other Qunari and have them breed for desirable traits.

Do I understand correctly:

 

Someone orders a Qunari female and a Qunari male

"You pair up...."

and there is no way to say "No! Not with her / him"?

[Kurogane335]

Do I understand correctly:

 

Someone orders a Qunari female and a Qunari male

"You pair up...."

and there is no way to say "No! Not with her / him"?

In fact it's more :

 

Qunari "A" is a male warrior with traits like ; great physical strength, heightened aggression ans superior reflexes; he is a Qunari, not a viddathari (so an ox-man)

Qunari "A" go to see the Tamassran and tell her that he needs to have a sexual intercourse. The Tamassran takes note of it and select the female Qunari who, she thinks, would be the better depending of what the Qun needs now.

 

So, Qunari "B" is selected because she is tall, strong and resilient. "A" and "B" go to the Tamassran place, they have sex and then they depart, maybe never seeing one another in their life. Supposedly, the child "C" will have some traits from both his/her parents.

 

Now, imagine this system at a whole societal level, where the Tamassran keep note about all the recessive and recurrent traits in one lineage and you have the breeding system. It should be noted that Qunari probably can fall in love with another (and in the Antaam, the love is probably directed toward another soldier, and therefore almost always homosexual if a sexual intercourse should occur), but it is simply that in their society, sex and love are totally separated. Sex is a Demand of the Qun, love is a Demand of the One which is accepted because it won't usually affect the Qun at a whole. Who cares that the Sten of said unit is in love with his Karasaad ? As long as they perform their duties, no one : they can recite poetry, talk about butterflies and kitten and all that when they aren't on duty and nobody will actually attack them for defiling the Qun or anything like that, IMHO.

 

Edit : also, it should be noted that for the woman, only the time of the pregnancy is problematic, most of the time, since she is supposed to give her child to a Tamassran (either at birth or once he doesn't need her milk, I don't know). Obviously, it is at this time that a woman would be the more prone to leave the Qun, since having to give up her child is quite a traumatic experience, even if you have had all your life and a whole society geared toward you accepting that.

[TeraBat]

I think a lot of this depends on how advanced Qunari birth control is. 

 

We already know, by observing the back and forth between Krem and Iron Bull, that Qunari children do not know the parents who conceived them. All Qunari children are raised by the Tamassran class. 

 

Now, the Tamassrans are also responsible for relieving in a non-procreative manner the sexual urges of other classes. 

 

So, there's one of two options:

 

Either the Tamassrans have such amazing birth control that they choose by whom they conceive and by whom they do not; all other Qunari women are on similar birth control to ensure they do not conceive (as pregnancy and childbirth would interfere with that woman's Qun-directed duty). 

 

Or

 

Qunari women who give birth are expected to immediately surrender the child to the Tamassran class (no idea what Tamassran women do - perhaps give their baby to other Tamassrans far away). 

 

Now, the way Iron Bull talks about sex among the Qunari, I'm inclined to believe the former option. He never says that Qunari feel free to sleep with whomever. Rather, when you get horny, you seek out the Tamassrans to satiate your desire; like seeing your doctor for an earache. 

 

My personal theory:

 

The Qunari do not use birth control, but rather go to the Tamassrans for their sexual satisfaction. I am not sure how it would work among non-Tamassran women, but i imagine that there are probably some male Tamassrans who have the market cornered on condom technology to ensure they can perform their duties without getting an unapproved woman pregnant. Or some very, very skilled female Tamassrans. 

 

Female Tamassrans are not on birth control - since only a small subclass of women are allowed to reproduce, those who are of this class must be pregnant as often as possible. A Tamassran woman who gives birth surrenders her child to a different creche, to ensure neither she nor the child knows their relationship to each other; and so the Tamassran can channel her maternal feelings into caring for the creche for which she is responsible. 

 

A non-Tamassran woman who gets pregnant is a source of great shame by her peers; as she has assumed a role not hers. But the child should not bear the sins of it's forebears. So the non-Tamassran woman is cared for during her pregnancy, and the child taken away as normal - but the mother is almost immediately carted off to the Ben-Hasserath and their re-education camps. 

 

No matter what is true, it would be very interesting to see a quest line where the main character encounters a female Qunari, who is pregnant and on the run because of her pregnancy. 

 

 

***

 

Of course, since it's implied that the race Qunari has some connection to dragons, it's not beyond the realm of comprehension that Qunari are hatched and not born. In which case, the Tamassrans lay eggs and simply need seed with which to fertilize them. 

[The DM of Thedas]

I am pretty confident that the Ox-Men are mammals.

Female Qunari seem to, at large, have non-labor intensive jobs. Like bakers, teachers, and shop keeps. But I am confident that Bioware has yet to nail every aspect of Qunari society, just like how they'll never publish the Chant of Light.

[Basher of Glory]

I assume, that a pregnant Qunari who decides to keep the baby has no option like

 

"...uhm...I'd rather keep the child myself and leave the Qun...bye!"

 

They always must flee and are criminals in the eyes of the loyal followers, right?