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Team Mages or Team Templars?


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#151
Dean_the_Young

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I actually really hated this outcome. I feel they could've added just a small bit of ominous foreshadowing like 'Though the mages got their freedom and were generally accepted, sightings of abominations became more common throughout the south' or something to show the negativity of having mages run rampant. Instead, we got an ending that pretty much trivializes everything we've been taught about mages and magic and the necessity of Templars.

 

Don't overlook key words, like 'for the moment.'

 

Moments are short.



#152
thesuperdarkone2

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Who are they? What other boss? Please explain.

The devs. They outright said that originally you weren't supposed to fight Orsino if you sided with the mages but they needed another boss for the endgame so Orsino always goes crazy. Bad writing explains why Orsino suddenly goes from "With you, we have a chance to succeed" to "lol now I iz bloodmage! Lol no hope and now I'm the boss from the dlc!" after one fight.



#153
thesuperdarkone2

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Don't overlook key words, like 'for the moment.'

 

Moments are short.

By that logic, the best Divine cass ending is temporary. In fact, by your logic, Hardened Divine Leliana is the best Leliana ending as there are no indications that her reforms will be undone and unity is completely maintained.



#154
TormDK

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Team Templars.



#155
Dean_the_Young

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When you say rebel mages, are you refering to the mages outside of Redcliffe? Because if you are, Corporal Vale tells the inquisitor that the Redcliffe mages do not support the mages outside Redcliffe. And that they've washed there hands of them. If you don't believe me go to the hinterlands and talk to him about the mages while the fighting is going on.

 

See, that's not really selling a point for Team Mages. One of the charges against Team Mages is that Mages can't be trusted to police mages.

 

When The Mage Polity, which exists to represent mages as a collective, hence the name mage collective, 'washes its hands' of misbehaviors... it kinda proves the point.
 


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#156
thesuperdarkone2

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See, that's not really selling a point for Team Mages. One of the charges against Team Mages is that Mages can't be trusted to police mages.

 

When The Mage Polity, which exists to represent mages as a collective, hence the name mage collective, 'washes its hands' of misbehaviors... it kinda proves the point.
 

And Templars do absolutely nothing when some of their group leaves to kill both mages and non-mages.



#157
Sommo James

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Except no.

 

The Geth didn't start anything the Geth were minding their business. The Quarians got a hard on for war and decided to start **** with the Reapers breathing down everyone's necks like idiots. The Mages did start by breaking free of the Chantry. And when it predictably blew up in their faces (because starting a war without a plan is dumb ) alot of them started crying and doing exactly what people feared they'd do in the first place like morons.

 

It's been a while since I read Asunder, so I could not remember it correctly, but I think it was the seeker commander (the one killed by Cole, cannot remember his name) that started the war attacking the mages gathered at the White Spire after the cure for tranquility was discovered and start buthcering them. The option that the mages had after escaping the conclave were either return to Circles and hope that not all of them would have been executed or tranquilezed, or fight for their freedom. The choosed the second. 



#158
Sommo James

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The devs. They outright said that originally you weren't supposed to fight Orsino if you sided with the mages but they needed another boss for the endgame so Orsino always goes crazy. Bad writing explains why Orsino suddenly goes from "With you, we have a chance to succeed" to "lol now I iz bloodmage! Lol no hope and now I'm the boss from the dlc!" after one fight.

 

Ok makes sense. I misunderstood it and thought you were saying that Orsino turned to blood magic beacause the mages in Kirkwall wanted another boss rather than Orsino, LOOOOL :)



#159
Ryzaki

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It's been a while since I read Asunder, so I could not remember it correctly, but I think it was the seeker commander (the one killed by Cole, cannot remember his name) that started the war attacking the mages gathered at the White Spire after the cure for tranquility was discovered and start buthcering them. The option that the mages had after escaping the conclave were either return to Circles and hope that not all of them would have been executed or tranquilezed, or fight for their freedom. The choosed the second. 

 

I'm pretty sure they voted on whether to go to war. At least that's what the game suggests. I've never read Asunder though.

 

Also why would they think the Divine would allow all the circles to be purged is beyond me.



#160
Barquiel

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 Lambert went against the Divine's orders and attacked the mages in the white spire before a single vote on seceding from the chantry could be passed. He started the war, not Fiona.

 

I am not impressed by the Leliana ending, myself. "College of Enchanters" is different from "Circle of Magi" ... how, exactly? Oh, a place where they can gather in safety to study and practice magic -- what a novel idea! No one's come up with that before. Well, other than when the Circle of Magi itself was conceived, so, congratulations on reinventing that wheel. It has a cuter name, I suppose, but it's just silly that they went through the trouble of fighting and dissolving the Circle just to create the same damn thing. The thought of just fixing what was already there clearly did not occur to them.
 

 

I'm pretty sure the difference is that there are no templars in the "College of Enchanters" ending. And the mages tried to fix the circles. But the Templars (and Seekers under Lambert) refused to compromise and frankly were unwilling to admit that the system as it was wasn't working and thus saw no need to compromise.



#161
The Baconer

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Mages can't police mages, Templars can't police mages, Templars can't police Templars, Seekers can't police mages or Templars or Seekers.

 

Truly a ****-sandwich for Thedas.



#162
Wissenschaft 2.0

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I choose mage freedom with Leliana as Divine (she enacts many more reforms than just mage freedom, that I support). I also support Cassandra reforming the seekers of truth. No longer will there be templars to keep mages prisoner, using religion and neglect as excuses for their abuses. The Seekers of Truth can hunt down demons and abominations. Mages don't need to be treated like prisoners nor should a religious institution hold power over what should be a secular intuition.

 

The chantry being open to all races and genders is a nice bonuses.



#163
Aimi

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nor should a religious institution hold power over what should be a secular intuition.


Why is that?

#164
Sommo James

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 Lambert went against the Divine's orders and attacked the mages in the white spire before a single vote on suceding from the chantry could be passed. He started the war, not Fiona.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the difference is that there are no templars in the "College of Enchanters" ending. And the mages tried to fix the circles. But the Templars (and Seekers under Lambert) refused to compromise and frankly were unwilling to admit that the system as it was wasn't working and thus saw no need to compromise.

 

Yes, exactly. Also the divine herself helped the mage rebellion to start by:

1) inviting lord seeker Lamber at a meeting away from the white spire (the circle in Val Roiaux where all mages were gathered) to discuss futile arguments, thus distracting him and allowing the mages to flee

2) sending Leliana to free the mages at the white spire (do not remember if all mages, Rhys for certain)

 

The lord seeker saw the bahaviour of the diven as betrayal and split the templar from the chantry. He is the real responsible of the war, not Fiona. What could have she done. Return to the circle and hope that the Lord Seeker would forget them all (lol)? 



#165
Wissenschaft 2.0

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Why is that?

 

Too often the quote "Magic should serve man, never rule over him" is used to focus on the "never rule over him" part and forgets the first part which is a call for mages to go out and do the makers work. The chantry for too long has allowed a stigma to be attach to mages, they are too dangerous. As if mages were some type of curse from the maker. That type of dogmatic discrimination has been hidden too long behind the perceived piousness of the biased clergy.

 

This doesn't mean that the mages will suddenly be atheist but instead that they will be able to practice their faith (which calls for mages to actively serve man) without being impeded by a chantry that unjustly persecutes them.


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#166
Aimi

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Too often the quote "Magic should serve man, never rule over him" is used to focus on the "never rule over him" part and forgets the first part which is a call for mages to go out and do the makers work. The chantry for too long has allowed a stigma to be attach to mages, they are too dangerous. As if mages were some type of curse from the maker. That type of dogmatic discrimination has been hidden too long behind the perceived piousness of the biased clergy.
 
This doesn't mean that the mages will suddenly be atheist but instead that they will be able to practice their faith (which calls for mages to actively serve man) with out being impeded by a chantry that unjustly persecutes them.


I suspect that you're going to run into a chicken-and-egg problem there, because the Chantry is not the only religion that is institutionally suspicious of mage power and worried about abominations. The Qunari have even more draconian practices aimed at suppressing the same (perceived?) dangers. That, to me, says that the religious attitudes about the safety or lack thereof of magic primarily reflect popular "mundane" opinion, rather than the other way around.

More problematically, your argument isn't an argument for the withdrawal of a religious institution from a secular sphere. Rather, it looks like an effort to redefine popular understanding of the religious institution's reason for involvement, and change the mechanics of that involvement, rather than remove it entirely. You don't really have a whole lot of reasons for proposing this thing, but the only one that makes sense and that would potentially mean anything to Thedosians is the first one, where you appeal to the Chant itself. If your reason for mage freedom is "because the Chant says so" then you really haven't taken the Chantry out of supposedly secular affairs, have you?

There's also no convincing description of precisely why the matter is a secular one as opposed to a religious one. In fact, if any one solution is to be imposed, regardless of what it actually is, Chantry support and participation will be necessary, rather than excluded, because it is the only institution that actually covers all Thedas. It is both a religious organization and a secular one of immense power. Condemning it for failing to adhere to some anachronistic western Enlightenment concept of separate religious authorities badly misses the point.
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#167
Wissenschaft 2.0

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I suppose I used the wrong wording there about going from a religious to secular organization. lol I only meant that the clergy would not be controling the mage intuitions any longer.

 

I'm currently role playing a Human mage that believes in the maker and wants to help his fellow mages. So hes still pretty religious.

 

Unfortunately, my poor use of words has completely side tracked from my reasons for supporting Leliana, especially when playing a human mage.

 

The definition of secular I used simply meant "not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order." I just meant that the mages should be organized separately from the chantry, the circle was previously like a type order of the chantry.



#168
DarthSideus2

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Team Mage 4Eva!!! ;)



#169
Laterali

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In my first playthrough I chose the mages, because through all 3 games I have been pro mage. So finally for my second playthrough I chose the templars, though i conscripted them, they aren't really redeemable to me. 

 

Anyways, is Fiona the dumbest person in all of Thedas or what? She basically convinces all the mages to revolt, killings thousands of people in the process, mages, templars, and innocents alike. Then, she willfully sells her friends and fellow mages into slavery to Tevinter, which is known by all to be the scum of the entire planet, when it doesn't work out as she planned. For real, she began a war to free the mages, then sold them into slavery. 

 

Seriously, can you find a character in all of Thedas that was more inept at leading than Fiona? She just attacked me at Haven during that battle, and I really think I was doing the world a service by killing her. I wish Wynne would have made an appearance in this game, she at least was competent. 

 

Fiona, the unequivocally biggest moron in the entirety of the Dragon Age universe. 



#170
Stormbringer3

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What are the + or - of freeing the Mages or conscripting them?
Thanks for any opinions.

#171
Sommo James

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In my first playthrough I chose the mages, because through all 3 games I have been pro mage. So finally for my second playthrough I chose the templars, though i conscripted them, they aren't really redeemable to me. 

 

Anyways, is Fiona the dumbest person in all of Thedas or what? She basically convinces all the mages to revolt, killings thousands of people in the process, mages, templars, and innocents alike. Then, she willfully sells her friends and fellow mages into slavery to Tevinter, which is known by all to be the scum of the entire planet, when it doesn't work out as she planned. For real, she began a war to free the mages, then sold them into slavery. 

 

Seriously, can you find a character in all of Thedas that was more inept at leading than Fiona? She just attacked me at Haven during that battle, and I really think I was doing the world a service by killing her. I wish Wynne would have made an appearance in this game, she at least was competent. 

 

Fiona, the unequivocally biggest moron in the entirety of the Dragon Age universe. 

 

The Lord Seeker started the war killing the mages at the white spire, not the opposite. Fiona had not choice but to lead the mages and fight the war. The divine herself also supported the mage rebellion.



#172
Ashagar

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Except that Fiona was intent on breaking from the chantry long before that, you get hints of that in Awakening and she freely admits she was pushing the enchanters to see it happen regardless of what might happen. It takes two to tango and both Lord Seeker Lambart and Fiona were the tango dancers without which the war would not have happened.



#173
AshenEndymion

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The Lord Seeker started the war killing the mages at the white spire, not the opposite. Fiona had not choice but to lead the mages and fight the war. The divine herself also supported the mage rebellion.

 

The mages fought back rather than surrender.  When the police come to arrest you, and you start shooting at them, it's rather hypocritical to complain that they are "trying to kill you"...

 

Besides, if Lord Seeker Lambert was more interested in killing the mages(and thus "ending the rebellion"), rather than adhering to his order's tenants of "Seeking the Truth", those same mages would have been executed outright, rather than imprisoned, after their defeat in the White Spire.



#174
Barquiel

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The mages fought back rather than surrender.  When the police come to arrest you, and you start shooting at them, it's rather hypocritical to complain that they are "trying to kill you"...

 

Besides, if Lord Seeker Lambert was more interested in killing the mages(and thus "ending the rebellion"), rather than adhering to his order's tenants of "Seeking the Truth", those same mages would have been executed outright, rather than imprisoned, after their defeat in the White Spire.

 

They started to fight back when a First Enchanter tried to surrender without a fight, and was immediately killed by the templars.



#175
Steelcan

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 Lambert went against the Divine's orders and attacked the mages in the white spire before a single vote on seceding from the chantry could be passed. He started the war, not Fiona.

Fiona agitated, Adrain agitated, lambert responded the only way he knew how

 

and as for the Divine's order

 

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