22 réponses à ce sujet

[Moritsuna]

I was using this build for reference http://forum.bioware...-tempest-build/

 

and I'm getting wrecked, and I think it may be a gear problem. (lvl 13 right now)

 

Also I'm noticing that I am missing twin fangs when I spam it with Flask of fire because it has a little leaping animation that sometimes puts me past the target. Should I be using shadow strike instead? If so I gotta take out flask of ice

 

I'm wondering about what the most optimal tempest dw build is right now? Does it still use stealth?

 

One more question I was wondering if people use death blow or not because I've seen the tempest videos on youtube use that spinning slash.

[Matth85]

Tempest does not need to utilize stealth. There are no real benefit of it, so we might as well play on the strength of the specialization. That said, the damage bonus, threat reduction and unhindered mobility makes stealth worth having around or every Rogue!

To answer your 2 questions:

 

1) Twin Fangs hit box is a bit weird. You need to position yourself right. This means you might need to take a second after each twin fangs to reposition.

 

2) Take out Deathblow from the build. You have no reason to have it with so many other things to press. You simply do not got the points or luxury. During Flask of Fire I would use Shadow Strike. On AOE Packs I would use flask of frost to freeze, then shatter with Twin Fangs. Lastly I would use Flask of Lightning to position myself, or utilize Mercy Killing + Deep Slumber(Knockout Powder) for a good 10 second of crits.

 

In term of builds it doesn't matter too much. Tempest is a very varied specialization that support a multitude of playstyles. Use whatever works. Just remember you are limited to 8 abilities, where 3 of them are flask! If you also use Thousand cuts you are left with 4 spot, whereas 1 will be stealth. 3 to go! Twin Fangs, Knockout Powder and Shadow Strike is my recommendation.

[HikariNhel]

In terms of gear, you should try to unlock the Hissing Wastes area and find the merchant in that area. The merchant sells tier 3 armor schematics for rogues as well as other classes. Get the Prowler Armor schematics, I honestly think these are the best armors you can craft for rogues, especially if you can use tier 4 materials like Dragon Bone and Dragon Webbing.

 

As for weapons, you can get some tier 3 schematics from War Table missions or looting random chests. I do remember getting a tier 3 schematic for a dagger in the Suledin Keep (when you capture it) in Emprise de Lion in a chest near the crafting tables. And I have this one schematic I got from a War Table mission, which I don't remember unfortunately, that is a tier 3 dual blade dagger (I have to look up the name cause I forgot it) and can do crazy damage when you craft it with tier 4 materials and the right masterwork materials.

 

And finally, to get tier 4 materials for crafting, fight the dragons because they are the ones who drop the tier 4 materials. But if you aren't confident enough to fight the dragons, tier 3 materials can be your next choice.

 

I hope this was of some help to you!

[actionhero112]

Before you have access to deathblow, spam shadow strike when under the effects of flask of fire. The animation feels smoother, and you can get as a lot more off than you can twin fangs. Twin Fangs is your go to from stealth, but shouldn't be used under flask of fire. 

 

Any optimum build will have you getting Ambush, which means you should have stealth. You don't need the active ability, but you should have access to it through flank attack. 

 

I would suggest not putting Flask of Lightning on your toolbar. Activating Flask of Lightning yourself actually decreases your DPS, because everything, including your party slows down. However disabling everything on your tactics besides Flask of Lightning and then switching to another party member will have your character activate the flask, and actually increase his or her attack speed, increasing your dps. This is naturally risky, because DW rogue ai isn't the best, but providing you have a decent defensive masterwork such as fade touched dawnstone, you should be fine. 

 

My toolbar in nightmare looks like this.

 

Twin Fangs - Flank Attack - Shadow Strike - Flask of Fire - Deathblow - Flask of Frost - Knockout Powder - Thousand Cuts

 

Getting the "best" equipment (t3 stuff) is garnered through the hissing wastes, through the merchants and the tombs of fairel. Otherwise better stick to farming the Enterprise Du Leon chests until you get a split blade or ribsplitter. 

 

I've also seen people forgo Deathblow for throwing knives, though I have no idea how good it is. I have to playtest it. 

[Moritsuna]

I tried throwing knives and it seemed pretty weak. (maybe dont have all the right passives) Right now, with the knockout powder strategy I am spamming shadow strike from stealth, which does quite a good amount of damage. I heard that taking twin fangs AND flank attack were unnecessary, and you can replace twin fangs with poisoned weapons. 

 

Also, during flask of lightning yes my party slows down but so does the enemy, but in fact I speed up. Is that not an overall dps increase? 

[Moritsuna]

I meant to say, I don't seem to slow down as much, and also it may increase dps because of mercy killing. 

 

I would like to experiment with spinning blades though, apparently its pretty good but the passives are meh.

 

EDIT:. Would throwing blades/deathblow be better to have vs shadow strike and twin fangs? I'm thinking the first combo is better for really late game, you need all those passive. Before then, mercy killing allows you to have some burst and CC with knockout powder, (less damage but cc does help)

[actionhero112]

No it decreases dps because your team's damage drops off significantly, (as they aren't attacking). It's better to switch to another character, and let the ai attack super fast, but not use any of your important abilities in the process. When you use flask of lightning, it's primarily a defensive ability, allowing you to easily get into flanking position, dodge projectiles that can be dodged, and avoid other dangers. When the ai uses flask of lightning, it increases your attack speed making it more offensive, though it does have defensive benefits depending on your defensive masterworks. 

 

Flank Attack is good because it lets you enter stealth every 8 seconds, dropping aggro when your frost flask is on cooldown, and activating the extremely useful ambush. 50% armor penetration for 6 seconds is too good to pass up and the stealth attack bonus is significant. I love poisoned weapons, but unless I'm doing my artificer or assassin build, I usually forgo it. 

One you have Sneak Attack working to a significant degree, Mercy Killing becomes partially redundant, though Knockout Powder never really loses it's usefulness. 

 

It's important to note that mob killing and boss killing has extremely different builds for a tempest, due to Pincushion being not that great on normal mobs, but really good on bosses and getting it means you have to switch around your build a little bit. ( I get rid of the left hand side of the Tempest tree, as you can't freeze bosses) 

 

As far as throwing knives go, I have no idea how good it is, because I don't use it. I never really go that far into the Sabotage tree. ( though I do get the "looks like it hurt," and eventually "cheap shots" passives). All I can say is that if you find it good, use it, if not, don't. 

 

Deathblow will never replace Twin Fangs because the latter has more reliable damage based on flanking meaning it will do more damage in most scenarios, plus both are precision detonators meaning they will both get use in a tempest playstyle. Shadow Strike is also a precision detonator while also being a great nuke, which means that must be taken into account when deciding how good it is. Combined with how good it is with Flask of Fire, I think it's the most important non flask ability to a tempest. 

[wepeel_]

Imo it's not correct to view lightning flask as a dps decrease. It decreases dps if you look at damage per real world second, but that's a pretty weird way of looking at it unless you are trying to set a speed run record. You might as well say that pausing during combat will decrease your dps as nobody is able to attack for as long as you pause the game.

 

Now if you look at damage per in-game second, lightning flask is a tremendous boost. Less than one second passes inside the game when the flask is active, but you get 7-10 seconds of time - so what the flask does is allowing you to get 7-10 seconds of your normal dps squeezed into less than one second of actual game time.

 

 

As for twin fangs and deathblow, twin fangs is possibly the best opener available to a dagger rogue (after hidden blades which is spec specific). It deals huge bonus damage from flanking and it sunders armour when upgraded. As it does two hits, it will deal more damage than shadow strike if you flank.

Deathblow on the other hand is a finisher and not an opener. It's better than twin fangs when the enemy reaches 50% health (including the damage from the first deathblow hit) as that will trigger the second attack. Before that it's mostly a waste of stamina unless you have nothing else to use.

 

Throwing blades is subpar in terms of damage and should not be used unless you're having trouble reaching the opponent (or if you like it in terms of RP).

 

Shadow strike when upgraded is a great complement to twin fangs and death blow. It deals great damage and lowers the cooldown on your other abilities when upgraded (if you flank), meaning it's better suited as a follow-up attack than as an opener. Twin fangs, shadow strike and death blow is all you need in terms of damage really, which leaves you room for stealth, focus ability and 3 flasks, or 2 flasks and another ability of your choice. Personally I skip frost flask in favour of upgraded knockout powder.

[ThelLastTruePatriot]

 

 

And finally, to get tier 4 materials for crafting, fight the dragons because they are the ones who drop the tier 4 materials. But if you aren't confident enough to fight the dragons, tier 3 materials can be your next choice.

 

 

He's a tempest, dragons are a joke for them. Even if you don't use flask of fire, a full  focus bar thousand cuts will almost kill a dragon leaving little left to mop up. Just max your focus before fighting any dragon.

[actionhero112]

Imo it's not correct to view lightning flask as a dps decrease. It decreases dps if you look at damage per real world second, but that's a pretty weird way of looking at it unless you are trying to set a speed run record. You might as well say that pausing during combat will decrease your dps as nobody is able to attack for as long as you pause the game.

 

 Dps is a real world concept. We're talking about damage dealt per second, in real time. Every second you or your team mates are not attacking is lost Dps. This is why minimal pausing will result in faster endgame dragon times and it's also why the player activating flask of lightning results in a massive drop in dps. 

 

If you activate Flask of Lightning, then thousand cuts, is it any quicker than just activating thousand cuts? No. 

 

If you pause a million times and extend thousands cuts duration by 10 seconds, are you seeing a loss in dps? Yes. 

[wepeel_]

 Dps is a real world concept. We're talking about damage dealt per second, in real time. Every second you or your team mates are not attacking is lost Dps. This is why minimal pausing will result in faster endgame dragon times and it's also why the player activating flask of lightning results in a massive drop in dps. 

 

If you activate Flask of Lightning, then thousand cuts, is it any quicker than just activating thousand cuts? No. 

 

If you pause a million times and extend thousands cuts duration by 10 seconds, are you seeing a loss in dps? Yes. 

 

I just don't see that as a practical way of viewing dps. It's not a real world time concept besides the fact that it originated in an mmo where you can't pause and time is always the same for all characters. But in an mmo too, if one character could stop time for all players but himself and do what he wanted for 10 seconds, his dps compared to everyone else's would rise dramatically. Unless you are going for a speed run or feel some other need to get through the game as fast as possible, the time inside the game world is the only one that has any meaning in terms of damage.

 

If you activate Flask of Lightning, then thousand cuts, is it any quicker than just activating thousand cuts? No. 

 

Inside the game world it technically is. Because thousand cuts is almost uninterruptable damage that is delivered extremely fast either way though, the difference is minimal.

 

If you pause a million times and extend thousands cuts duration by 10 seconds, are you seeing a loss in dps? Yes. 

 

Thousand cuts still only does a set number of hits. By pausing to overview the situation and make sure you get the most efficiency out of movement and ability use you do lose dps in terms of real-world time, yes. But in relation to time inside the game, your dps will likely go up.

 

It may be individual whether you feel time inside the game is what counts or if you feel the need to get every fight over with in as few real-world seconds as possible, but against that background recommending people to take lightning flask off their bar seems like strange advice. I for one find it a superb ability that above boosting dps lets you control the battle in ways no other spec can. Out of all the tempest abilities, this is the one I find the most fun/interesting.

[Danadenassis]

 Dps is a real world concept. We're talking about damage dealt per second, in real time. Every second you or your team mates are not attacking is lost Dps. This is why minimal pausing will result in faster endgame dragon times and it's also why the player activating flask of lightning results in a massive drop in dps. 

 

If you activate Flask of Lightning, then thousand cuts, is it any quicker than just activating thousand cuts? No. 

 

If you pause a million times and extend thousands cuts duration by 10 seconds, are you seeing a loss in dps? Yes. 

You could also look at it as a damage competition between your own team and the enemies. In the case of dw rogues do I think that is a healthy perspective. Damage per enemy action, or something.

[actionhero112]

An mmo would never allow a situation where everyone else stops and one person moves in real time. That's unhealthy design to say the least. As someone whose played many mmos, if in a raid I paused dps for 7 seconds while I was the only one who moved in real time, I would be kicked from the guild so quick. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, because we only judge time based on reality not the game, real time is the only factor that matters. 

 

You have to understand the spirit behind dps, why is it important conceptually. Dps as a rating system exists to value abilities/classes in the order of which completes a fight quicker. Flask of Lightning goes against that spirit completely, (when you use it) because it lengthens the fight by slowing damage dealt.  

 

Also Necromancer can slow everything down for 20 seconds. Let's not say the ability is close to unique.

 

Plus let's be honest, what's more valuable, the AI making your DW rogue into a chainsaw for 7 seconds? Or you reliving the Matrix trilogy for 7 seconds. 

[wepeel_]

An mmo would never allow a situation where everyone else stops and one person moves in real time. That's unhealthy design to say the least. As someone whose played many mmos, if in a raid I paused dps for 7 seconds while I was the only one who moved in real time, I would be kicked from the guild so quick.

 

Yes, mmos handle it by increasing attack speed instead, but the net result inside the game world is the same in terms of damage. For a true speed increase however you also need to move faster and react faster, and the only feasible way to simulate that is to slow everything else down.

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, because we only judge time based on reality not the game, real time is the only factor that matters. 

 

You have to understand the spirit behind dps, why is it important conceptually. Dps as a rating system exists to value abilities/classes in the order of which completes a fight quicker. Flask of Lightning goes against that spirit completely, (when you use it) because it lengthens the fight by slowing damage dealt.  

 

Also Necromancer can slow everything down for 20 seconds. Let's not say the ability is close to unique.

 

Plus let's be honest, what's more valuable, the AI making your DW rogue into a chainsaw for 7 seconds? Or you reliving the Matrix trilogy for 7 seconds. 

 

We'll just disagree on that then, to me real world time is irrelevant unless there's a specific motivator. MMOs have enrage timers that force you to beat a fight in a certain time, and like I said before some people make it a point to beat the game as fast as possible; but barring such factors all relevant comparisons are inside the game.

 

And right, necromancers have it too - as a focus ability it's not exactly usable on the fly, but still.

 

As for the AI using it, it's definitely more valuable when I use it myself, at least as a DW rogue. With positioning and movement being critical, the AI makes a very poor melee rogue player so I wouldn't trust it to make good use of lightning flask. Beyond getting 7-10 seconds of free damage, the slow-down lets you maintain perfect positioning without having to worry about enemy movement, attacks etc, so it's also an indirect increase of dps. Other than that it's great fun to use compared to most other rogue abilities, which is another reason to keep it for yourself.

[Zenthar Aseth]

@actionhero

Real time literally does not matter, as far as the game is concerned. Game time is the only thing that matters, because that's what everything in the game uses. Usually it's the same as real time, but when you use FoL, game time slows down considerably. That means your DP(game)S increases. 

 

A Tempest using a FoL does 10 game-time seconds worth of damage in 1 game-time second. Not using FoL, he would do 10 game-time seconds worth of damage in 10 game-time seconds. This is important because, as mentioned above, enemies go by the game clock, not real clock. Meaning they aren't using their abilities, and they aren't moving. If they were conscious, they would see you as a blur, moving too fast to perceive. 

 

The "spirit behind DPS", as described by you, only makes sense in a MMO. In a MMO, game time = real time. In a singleplayer game, game time =/= real time. Faster real-time completion means absolutely nothing, as far as encounters are considered. Maybe if your pizza arrives in five minutes and you're in a hurry it matters. Otherwise, it doesn't -- FoL acts as an effective DPS increase per encounter. You insert X more seconds into the fight that you otherwise wouldn't have, meaning all the damage you do during that time is extra. 

 

Your last sentence doesn't make much sense. I don't know what you're trying to say with it, but it looks like a false dilemma.

[actionhero112]

Faster real time completion means everything when you're deciding which class can defeat the highland ravager in the fastest time. It means everything when judging how fast you do a fight. 

 

In fact it doesn't even make sense. You're essentially telling me a tempest which activates flask of lightning before killing the highland ravager is doing it quicker than one that simply activates thousand cuts. It's patently false. I don't even know how you would calculate that. If you did the highland ravager in 3 FoL seconds, does that equal .03 real seconds? 

 

If so I can do the Highland Ravager in less than the space where you blink.

 

Sound ridiculous? That's because it is. And that's what you're telling me. 

[TheInvoker]

This is my build

 

2 dagger crafted with ribsplitter schematic (i don't like dual blade,if you like you can craft better daggers)

124 damage

3 cun

3 dex

24% attack

6% critical chance

one of them has 1% heal on hit while the other has 3 guard on hit.

 

i crafted armor with sturdy prowler armor schematic bought in the hissing wastes. (i didn't fight the "superior" version so it's not the best i could get)

261 armor

18 dex

4% ranged defense

14% melee defense

abilities cost 10% less stamina

i didn't find any gear that gives offensive abilities because i don't like to have mail arms (prowler armor arms) on a leather armor, you can craft them to have more offensive stats if you don't mind about appearance.

 

elm of....i don't know the english name. the one you get from Florianne

6 cun

12% critical chance

 

 

Amulet of superb cunning

10 Cun

Belt....

+30% focus gain

2 rings of critical damage

+40% total

 

FINAL OFFENSIVE STATS

attack 73%

critical chance 52% (100% flanking)

critical damage 132%

damage on both hands 124 each

Flank damage 25%

 

TALENTS

Double Daggers

Twin Fangs + upgrade

Dance of Death

Sneak Attack

Deathblow + upgrade

 

Sabotage

Caltrops (useless)

Looked like it hurt

Cheap shot (for armor penetration since i have 0%)

 

Subterfuge

Stealth + upgrade

Evasion

Evade (never used)

Ambush

Easy to miss

 

Tempest

Everything except Flask of frost upgrade

 

BASIC TACTIC in fights

Start with Stealth

Flank the mage (if present) or an archer far from the crowd

Use twin fang for instant kill

If you don't have enough damage use deathblow and he's dead

If you can't kill him with TF+DB you are focusing the wrong target

after that if you are safe you can just go towards the next enemy to flank him,but if you are in the middle of the fight...

Use Flask of Lightning and attack.Meawhile your abilites will be available again

Use Flask of frost for defense and to freeze enemies and activate shatter combo (twin fang)

Etc etc

 

I use Flask of fire vs bosse to be able to spam twin fang and DB (when they are under 50% HP)

[wepeel_]

Faster real time completion means everything when you're deciding which class can defeat the highland ravager in the fastest time. It means everything when judging how fast you do a fight. 

 

In fact it doesn't even make sense. You're essentially telling me a tempest which activates flask of lightning before killing the highland ravager is doing it quicker than one that simply activates thousand cuts. It's patently false. I don't even know how you would calculate that. If you did the highland ravager in 3 FoL seconds, does that equal .03 real seconds? 

 

If so I can do the Highland Ravager in less than the space where you blink.

 

Sound ridiculous? That's because it is. And that's what you're telling me. 

 

Your example is specifically set up to compare results with another person, meaning you both use real time. Like I said before, real time only comes into play in cases like that when you are in a hurry or competing with someone else or a timer. Inside the actual game, you would indeed have killed the dragon faster with FoL.

[actionhero112]

Your example is specifically set up to compare results with another person, meaning you both use real time. Like I said before, real time only comes into play in cases like that when you are in a hurry or competing with someone else or a timer. Inside the actual game, you would indeed have killed the dragon faster with FoL.

That's what dps is. A real time comparison of the damage dealt by characters. It's what it's been since the first iteration of it in MMOs. Game time doesn't factor in, because not only it is unreliable and leads to these discussions, but the game world doesn't actually exist. 

 

Also that's ridiculous that you kill the Highland Ravager quicker. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

Faster real time completion means everything when you're deciding which class can defeat the highland ravager in the fastest time. It means everything when judging how fast you do a fight. 

 

In fact it doesn't even make sense. You're essentially telling me a tempest which activates flask of lightning before killing the highland ravager is doing it quicker than one that simply activates thousand cuts. It's patently false. I don't even know how you would calculate that. If you did the highland ravager in 3 FoL seconds, does that equal .03 real seconds? 

 

If so I can do the Highland Ravager in less than the space where you blink.

 

Sound ridiculous? That's because it is. And that's what you're telling me. 

Why on Earth does it matter which class can kill the Highland Ravager fastest in real time? It has no relevance except in your own head. It's a competition that you have artificially created.

 

It makes perfect sense. The former kills the Ravager in 0.1 game seconds. The latter takes 3 game seconds to do the same. 

 

So no, not ridiculous.

 

And again, in MMOs game time = real time. This is not the case in singleplayer games. This is why DPS as an MMO concept is irrelevant.

[wepeel_]

That's what dps is. A real time comparison of the damage dealt by characters. It's what it's been since the first iteration of it in MMOs. Game time doesn't factor in, because not only it is unreliable and leads to these discussions, but the game world doesn't actually exist.

 

MMO dps is also based on game time, just that game time always follows real time there. Imagine that you had an MMO character with an ability similar to FoL. You would use it, and for 10 seconds everything else in the game would seem to slow down tremendously, almost standing still. To everyone else, mobs and other players alike, for less than one second you would seem to move and act several times faster, essentially becoming too fast to track. This would seem like 10 seconds to you on your screen, but everyone else playing the game would see you blink out of existence and then reappear somewhere else with a dps boost that they couldn't explain. Your in-game clock would show that only 1 second had passed.

[Moritsuna]

DPS may be real time, but that means then I don't care for DPS. I care for doing the most efficient damage with the in game clock. I too play mmo's but I can see the difference.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Well, yes, it's a bit of a semantics debate. The question should be "who does more damage?" Which is what most people who ask about "DPS" mean, because it's become the standard term for damage-dealing thanks to MMOs. 

 

Nobody is going to convince me though that being able to kill two enemies while nobody else is able to move or do anything isn't an effective damage increase per encounter. With any other class, both you and your party would be taking damage during that same period, and you'd have to avoid enemy abilities and so on. With Tempest and FoL, you snap your fingers, two enemies fall down dead and then the fight starts from the same situation as it would for any other class, minus those two enemies. That's how it is in reality. Except in most encounters you get to use it more than once, so it offers a massive effective damage increase.