100 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Most of the Europe was Christian by 1200. Because some of Baltic was Pagan and that Andalusia, should we avoid to say "Christian Europe"?

[Sigma Tauri]

Most of the Europe was Christian by 1200. Because some of Baltic was Pagan and that Andalusia, should we avoid to say "Christian Europe"?

 

What's your point?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I mean if the majority is R, don't say X isn't the Land of R, because there is a minority of for example V.

[Sigma Tauri]

I mean if the majority is R, don't say X isn't the Land of R, because there is a minority of for example V.

 

Swing and a miss.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Actually, Christmas in itself isn't a Christian holiday, rather it originally was the Winter Solstice, a pagan holiday. The exact year I'm unsure, I believe it was 1080 or something, point being. The Pope of that time, wanted more converts. The curch was getting a few but not enough, as many still worshipped the pagan gods. So, the pope came up with Christmas, to gain converts. The decoration of a house, or pine tree, and giving decorative boxes, was a Roman tradition. Also, if I read correctly, the Romans would treat their prisoners/slaves nicer for 1 week. Giving extra bread, and have them gorge themselves on many sweets, wines and food. Kinda like the cook off in Jim Carry's The Grinch.

 
Christmas was a Christian holiday. It simply was placed on December to win converts. The Winter Solstice (an astronomical event) is celebrated on December 21st (and still is by pagans) but that involved ritual worship. The druids for example would spend the night celebrating at Stonehenge. The Christmas tree originated from when Saint Boniface "took an axe to an oak tree dedicated to the pagan deity Thor and replaced it with a fir tree, which he stated was a more fitting object of reverence because it pointed to heaven and it had a triangular shape, which he said was symbolic of the Holy Trinity" and then "In the 16th century, the Reformer, Martin Luther added lighted candles to a fir tree, wanting to show Christian worshippers the effects of the wonder of stars twinkling through a forest."

The Roman holiday you're referring to is Saturnalia which was a festival holiday for the Romans held on the 17th of December all the way to the 23rd. It's main influence on Christmas was the gift giving.
 
So despite a little influence from the Roman holiday and some paganism, I don't see how Christmas is "not a Christian holiday" just because of a little inspiration from other holidays. The Christmas tree and Saint Nicolas (and thus Santa) came from Christianity. Most of the world didn't have a holiday like this until Christianity introduced it world-wide. The Solstice is still a separate religious holiday that is different in both practice and meaning to Christmas.
 
Likely the Church would eventually have created a feast day for Jesus (after all we have Easter for his death and resurrection) as they have done for all their saints and the Church regards Jesus as greater. Being wise, they thought "put it close to these pagan holidays to win converts" and it worked. I don't know why people use this history and origin as an argument against Christmas as if it proves anything other than Christianity fundamentally being a religion that (most of the time) converts through peace and by constantly evolving and adapting to new cultures to win converts.
 
Christmas has been celebrated as a "Christian" holiday for many centuries regardless of why it was created. Christians throughout history have seen it as a sacred day regardless of its origin and this was never a problem before someone in the 21st century somehow thought "oh it's wrong for them to use this day because it overshadows a pagan holiday that I don't even celebrate!"

I use the term "was" in my first sentence because Christmas is now a secular commercialist holiday.
 
Regardless of the first "Christmas" all the religious festivals on this time of month throughout history were all about gift-giving to friends and families, charity and thanksgiving. This has since been ruined in the 21st century where people demand gifts and businesses exploit this mentality. I haven't celebrated Christmas for a few years now because it's just one big scam for me (although my family still celebrated it, I just treated it like a ordinary day and spent my time sleeping).

[Sigma Tauri]

Nonsense. European colonists had been celebrating Christmas even during the colonial period. Puritans did bar it in the early years but that didn't last (just like it didn't in England), and it's been celebrated in some form or another ever since. Granted it's much more "popular" (aka heavily commercialized like most holidays) now but it's been around for a long time in the U.S., and even longer in Europe prior to that. Christmas is an inextricable part of history and tradition in many European countries and colonies.

 

I don't disagree with the first thing you said about European colonists celebrating Christmas during the colonial period.  I disagree with you saying that it's been a American tradition when its national acceptance as a traditon seemed to be a relatively recent thing only dating back in the 1800s. The fact the Puritans and the Congregationalist influence on New England denounced it suggest that anti-Christmas sentiments had precedent in early America (among the religious), and that there wasn't a continuous line of hundreds of years of a national American Christmas tradition. I don't doubt that Europeans celebrated Christmas in early America, but an educated guess it was celebrated within the traditions of the congregation and ethnicity of the community not anymore different than the way non-European Christians celebrate Christmas.

[Sigma Tauri]

If you're referring to it not actually being a national holiday until later then you are correct. It was not made a national holiday until the 1800s I think (neither was Thanksgiving). But it was still widely practiced by colonists and their progeny and became more and more prominent as immigrants from Europe continued to come here all the way into the 1900s. The only opposition Christmas really faced are from staunch anti-Catholic sects like Puritans, otherwise I'd say it was a pretty normal occasion in most places. So I stand by my position that Christmas is a long-time tradition in the United States.

 

No. I didn't deliberately argue of it being a national holiday because the first permanent holidays weren't established by Congress until the 1870s. I'm talking about it lacking a continuous unified American tradition. Of course, its prominence continued to grow in the 1800s as Catholic communities were immigrating to the United States. But, looking at Christmas now, there is a sense of what an American Christmas looks like, and that idea had been exported to non-Christian nations and Christian nations that celebrated it in a non-European way.

[Reorte]

He over-reacted but most of the posters in this thread don't seem particularly tolerant either, I don't have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone getting fed up of fake cheer being shoved in your face all the time.

[SnipedArm]

I sometimes wish the stewardess would toss me off too. 

[mybudgee]

 

[Sigma Tauri]

I certainly have my grievances with modern Christmas. Like most holidays now in the consumerist culture we live in, Christmas been appropriated by corporations to sell, sell, sell. If you wade through the endless waves of ads the general idea of Christmas is there but it has lost much of its meaning. The religious significance has largely been pruned and I think most kids (and probably a good chunk of adults) only care about getting presents. The rest is just fluff.

 

I agree. I live near NYC. The holidays cause so much stress because of this obsession with material culture because people have to drive to the mall in freezing weather. People get unnecessarily aggressive so they can get their little Johnny an Xbox One.

 

I think we're mostly on the same page here but perhaps expressing our ideas differently. Of course Christmas has not been a unified tradition in the sense that it is now. But it has been a tradition in most circles since the early colonial days. When enough people in a nation celebrate a specific time of year in a specific way and do this for a long period of time, then I myself consider it a tradition. It may not always take the same exact form but the general idea is there.

 

Well, the history of Christmas in America is kind of interesting to talk about. Honestly, I was surprised that a lot of elements of Christmas were adopted only in the 1800s, even though Christmas as we know today is an amalgamation of older European traditions. When I read the Wikipedia article, Christmas was a colonial party holiday, which is why the Puritans hated it. It was only the 1800s that it became a winter get-together for the family. Anyway, I learned something new.

[metatheurgist]

I certainly have my grievances with modern Christmas. Like most holidays now in the consumerist culture we live in, Christmas been appropriated by corporations to sell, sell, sell. If you wade through the endless waves of ads the general idea of Christmas is there but it has lost much of its meaning. The religious significance has largely been pruned and I think most kids (and probably a good chunk of adults) only care about getting presents. The rest is just fluff.

That's kind of fitting. The pagan ritual was co-opted by Christianity to gain power. Now the Christian ritual has been co-opted by commercialism to gain power. What goes around....

[SwobyJ]

Gnostic means one who practices the ancient mystery religions that believe in emanationism and that Yahweh of the Old Testament was an evil god that created the material world.

 

That isn't (the only form of) being gnostic. That is being A gnostic of Christianity.

 

Other than that, yeah. I love Gnosticism, but it sure puts Judaism in a bad light.

[Solbranthius]

He sounds like a sociopath. I can't stand people who can't hold their tongue or acknowledge something that is widely accepted in society. You don't need to celebrate the festive period but there's no need to ruin it for somebody else when they're being friendly.

[Killdren88]

I dont give a grain of salt to religion and I still celebrate Christmas. More for the happy good will and togetherness and such...plus egg not. Still no reason to be rude about it.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 lol.

 

My dad was made to leave the plane once, before the flight.

 

'Served him right, too.

[Dermain]

He sounds like a sociopath. I can't stand people who can't hold their tongue or acknowledge something that is widely accepted in society. You don't need to celebrate the festive period but there's no need to ruin it for somebody else when they're being friendly.

 

There's far more to being a sociopath than just that...

[slimgrin]

We should all be offended by Christmas. Grisly history there. Xmas on the other hand, still safe as ever.