30 réponses à ce sujet

[Credit2team]

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't unbowed just a much weaker version of warcry?

and if this is true doesn't that make the templar considerably weaker than the legionare?

[K00L4ID]

Unbowed doesn't taunt, doesn't cost stamina, has a longer cooldown, generates same guard (with passive point), and doesnt give the 200% armor bonus for 4 sec or whatever for same point cost. So, in theory, it can be worse at times, but you get to keep your stamina for more blocking that may be able to make up for the longer cooldown (though I doubt it).

 

I don't use Templar much because I don't like her skills that much, so as to whether or not Templar is worse than Legionnaire overall, I can't say.

[HarlotsLoki]

Unbowed doesn't generate agro.

The templar is an offensive off tank, you are mostly there to buff teammates and wipe mobs with aoe spells.

The dwarf is a defensive tank, to draw agro and take the pressure and damage off your teammates.

[CaoSlayer]

Unbowed can be used when knocked down unlike warcry.

[mission555]

200% armor is so good,

[Apl_Juice]

Unbowed also seems to stagger nearby enemies.

[mission555]

We can agree Warcry is tons better right?

[Cirvante]

200% armor is so good,

 

Except that Bioware broke the armor bonuses in the last patch. Apparently they only apply to your rear now. So unless you plan to tank the enemies with your butt, you'll find little use in them.

 

Use Payback Strike on the Templar and To the Death on the Legionnaire.

[Saboteur-6]

Weaker? You mean in terms of durability? Warcry by itself is not what makes the Legionnaire so durable but yes, the Legionnaire has more options for straight soaking damage. Templar's don't play the same as Legionnaires though as they mitigate damage through body/positional blocking with Line in the Sand, soaking team damage inflicted through Bodyguard, and burst DPS in the Spell Purge/Wraith of Heaven combo.

[Credit2team]

Unbowed doesn't taunt, doesn't cost stamina, has a longer cooldown, generates same guard (with passive point), and doesnt give the 200% armor bonus for 4 sec or whatever for same point cost. So, in theory, it can be worse at times, but you get to keep your stamina for more blocking that may be able to make up for the longer cooldown (though I doubt it).

 

I don't use Templar much because I don't like her skills that much, so as to whether or not Templar is worse than Legionnaire overall, I can't say.

no way stamina is a fair trade off

[Credit2team]

Unbowed can be used when knocked down unlike warcry.

why are you getting knocked down?

[Credit2team]

Except that Bioware broke the armor bonuses in the last patch. Apparently they only apply to your rear now. 

was this a balance change I missed or a bug?

[Credit2team]

We can agree Warcry is tons better right?

this is exactly my point, unbowed needs to be buffed in a way that makes it as powerful as warcry given that the templar can't use warcry.... or just give the templar warcry

this isn't just about survivability, its about threat management

[Xader]

All I can say is even on the campaign I don't find much use for unbowed and on multiplayer there's no reason to use it, the problem with multiplayer is the 4 skills just leads to a meta in how each class is as it's max usefulness.

 

On my legionnaire I take the block (because why wouldn't you? especially if you're on perilous and against the demon commander in which the 100% free win way is to wall tank), warcry, shield fortress and the single taunt skill just to get the initial agro at a range from the entire pack onto me, though it can be replaced depending on how you play I suppose.

 

While soaking damage with the bodyguard I find it to be more of a problem causer above anything else because if everyone for some reason starts taking damage near you then you just watch your guard and health drain down much quicker than you wanted, the only reason to get bodyguard is to carry bad players through their own mistakes most the time anyway, the ideal setup is use legionnaire when you have 2 or even 3 melee characters and the templar if you have 2 or 3 ranged characters due to choke point gameplay and the line skill.

 

Then again with the whole meta issue all I find is taking shield block, the single target taunt, the horn for the 50% damage increase which imo is too good not to get if you really want your party to pump out the damage and of course the line skill, sure you can take spell purge or the stun but what's the point? if you're playing with a good team setup then they should have some form of CC to last for enough time for the fight to be in your favour anyway.

[Saboteur-6]

this is exactly my point, unbowed needs to be buffed in a way that makes it as powerful as warcry given that the templar can't use warcry.... or just give the templar warcry

this isn't just about survivability, its about threat management

 

Unbowed is not Warcry because it's not meant to be. Templar plays different than the Legionnaire because she's meant to. I disagree with your suggestions.

[Chaz Darkbane]

Unbowed is virtually useless. The cooldown is far too long to make up for the downsides. 

 

Pros:

• It does not require stamina

 

Cons:

• It does not generate aggro
• It does not double your armor
• it does not proc cutting words (because it isn't a taunt)
• It has an incredibly long cooldown

​Seems kind of obvious doesn't it? 

 

Unbowed is not Warcry because it's not meant to be. Templar plays different than the Legionnaire because she's meant to. I disagree with your suggestions.

 

I am confused at why you would not want War Cry in the Templar arsenal. How can she offtank without threat management? Is she not meant to be a tank? Because if she is meant to do anything else please enlighten me because I honestly can't think of a reason to bring her to any party except for having a giggle or two or because she is cool (which she totally is). If I want a damage dealer I can bring any rogue character, either of the two handed warriors, or any mage and have them be more effective. If I want a tank the legionnaire does it 10x better, if I want crowd control any mage can deliver twice the crowd control and twice the damage with less resource management and lower cooldowns.

 

So what is the Templar meant to do? Be a hybrid that can't out perform anyone at anything? 

[CaoSlayer]

why are you getting knocked down?

Usually by the red templar commander spin to win If I dobt calculate well the distance. Also by terrors and DC panic, unbowed negates it

[gay_wardens]

I like it. It allows me to ignore the fact that I have shield wall for a while and just hack and slash away. It doesn't generate aggro because the templar doesn't like being aggroed too much. She's too squishy without unbowed for me not to use it.

 

If you're using your shield while unbowed is on cooldown, then it's not really going to matter how long the cooldown is. It's there when you need it.

 

Jesus Christ, next thing you mass effect people will start asking why rogues can't generate guard.

[Saboteur-6]

Unbowed is virtually useless. The cooldown is far too long to make up for the downsides. 

 

Pros:

• It does not require stamina

 

Cons:

• It does not generate aggro
• It does not double your armor
• it does not proc cutting words (because it isn't a taunt)
• It has an incredibly long cooldown

​Seems kind of obvious doesn't it? 

 

 

I am confused at why you would not want War Cry in the Templar arsenal. How can she offtank without threat management? Is she not meant to be a tank? Because if she is meant to do anything else please enlighten me because I honestly can't think of a reason to bring her to any party except for having a giggle or two or because she is cool (which she totally is). If I want a damage dealer I can bring any rogue character, either of the two handed warriors, or any mage and have them be more effective. If I want a tank the legionnaire does it 10x better, if I want crowd control any mage can deliver twice the crowd control and twice the damage with less resource management and lower cooldowns.

 

So what is the Templar meant to do? Be a hybrid that can't out perform anyone at anything? 

 

It's not bloody "virtually useless". It's only "virtually useless" if you want it to perform like Warcry. It does what it's supposed to: Max guard, stagger enemies, and break CC. All at no stamina cost. Look we already know we fundamentally disagree about this. We've talked at length in my Templar build thread about how you have your particular concept of class roles and how they're supposed to function. I spoke to you ad nauseam about how I felt your concept of team dynamics were rigid and that you cannot see the benefit in a tank that's not an aggro tank. Then you, predictably, start going in again now with the same narrow perspective of "whats the point of a hybrid character if someone else can do it" in the effort to shoehorn more aggro Tank stuff into the Templar build.

 

Part of the appeal of a hybrid character is that she has flexibility in adapting to roles and can perform them adequately with varying team constructs. That to you is apparently a bad thing. You also minimize the potency of the spell purge combo because you can't use it twice in the same spawn. GUESS WHAT!?! If your first to the spawn and hit the backline, all that threat that you're worried about holding is null because there's 4-6 smoking archer/rogue/mage corpses now. Dead people don't attack last I checked (unless they're zombies). Oh but right there's some other classes with burst DPS too so the Templar nuking a third, half, or 3 quarters of the spawn AND being able to shield wall parry AND being able to positional body block AND provide support buffs AND have all of those warrior survivability passives...that's all just useless man. That's not UNIQUE at all.

 

If you can't see the benefit of the Spell Purge / Wraith of Heaven combo, Line in the Sand, Shield Wall, Horn of Valor (or Unbowed, or Bodyguard) along with the Templar's passives like Turn the Bolt, Bear Mauls the Wolves, Unyielding, etc.....then I don't know what to tell you. Just don't play Templar man and only bring Legionnaires if you want a Tank. I've been running Templar on Threatening/Perilous just fine.

 

I'll say it again...this game only requires 2 strategic aspects for a team to be successful: Damage mitigation and Damage dealt. While you can certainly mitigate through traditional mass aggro holding / alpha damage soaking it's NOT the only way to play this game.

[Chaz Darkbane]

 

I'll say it again...this game only requires 2 strategic aspects for a team to be successful: Damage mitigation and Damage dealt. While you can certainly mitigate through traditional mass aggro holding / alpha damage soaking it's NOT the only way to play this game.

 

I can agree with you on this part, but this is also where the problem lies as Unbowed doesn't provide as much damage mitigation as War Cry as frequently so with that alone I would still recommend War Cry over it, not to mention War Cry would actually allow you to do more damage as well but I will get into that later. I like the Templar as a concept, do not misunderstand me here. I like her look and I like the fact she can perform as a hybrid and the fact that she is totally a bad ass paladin. My problem with her stems from my belief that she is being held back from performing well by a few incredibly small issues. Some come from poor skill thought for multiplayer (Blessed Blades was obviously designed for single player in mind where your teammate think hugging you is the definition of ace strategy) and some come from simple bugs (why can enemies run through Line in the Sand again? They still just run right through the clones on either my right and left and ignore me) but the main problem I have is that she is one of two classes capable of tanking in this game, and it is a role she simply can not fill. No it is not because someone is better at it than her, that should be obvious with her role as a hybrid but it is because she lacks one essential tank skill that would not only solve all of her threat problems, but also increase her effectiveness of her main combo.

 

Think about it, what does adding War Cry take away from the Templar? Nothing. It isn't like Unbowed is some skill unique to her, the Legionnaire has access to it as well. But what does having it give her? 

 

Everything. Having access to War Cry seems like an obvious choice with how she is built and allow some deviation with her builds. It would allow her to not only make full use of her tanking abilities but also increase the effectiveness of her WoH/SP combo by forcing the enemies to hug her when she casts it which is a big deal because it forces the situation you described earlier of nuking down a group of enemies as an alternative to having to tank them, but allows her to do it even when enemies are trying to run past her. 

 

I don't think Unbowed is a terrible skill per se, I just find it a bad alternative to War Cry when it provides so much less. If we had more skills to work with, I would totally say to grab it, but with half of our build being used on one combo I want to make sure that I either have something to do while it is cooling down, or have a solid method of making that combo even better and War Cry provides both of those things.

 

As for some of the other skills you listed I feel as if we should disregard those completely, things like Shield Wall, Turn the Bolt and Bear Mauls the Wolves are available to the Legionnaire as well so I can't really hold those above him, but my point here isn't to discuss what it is the Templar has, but rather what it lacks if it wants to fill a role. If you want to focus more on the Templar we should probably take it back to the old Templar thread to avoid hijacking, but in terms of a tank I will close saying that War Cry provides more for your slot as a tank then Unbowed does. If you have the luxury of grabbing either then you will likely want War Cry unless your character functions as more of a dps in which case Unbowed is better because it does not attract aggro or have a stamina cost.

[TormDK]

Yeah, I think it is a problem when 90% of people that play a given class goes for a specific combo. (I'm a Shield Wall, Purge/WOh+Horn user currently)

 

The sentinel tree does *not* perform as it should from a tanking perspective, so I'd be in favour of replacing Unbowed with War Cry for that reason alone.

[FNX Finest]

neither