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[sylvanaerie]

My dear Leliana.My poor wounded heart is too weak to bear seeing her suffer and become a cold ruthless bt*ch.

 

I always unharden her.Go dance, sing, pick flowers and eat pudding my dear Leliana, you deserve it!

 

EDIT:I love seeing soft Leliana become Divine, it is like a perfect ending to her story arc throughout the games

 

This.  My King Cousland hardened her so she would stay his mistress, but my Amell boy would have been heartbroken to see what being the Divine's left hand did to her.  My first inquisitor missed softening her and got ruthless Divine Victoria.  This last run I softened her and got a much more satisfying (for me) ending for her personal story arc.

[leaguer of one]

Personally, I see Leliana's story a tale of two people, Divine Justina and Leliana herself. From Leliana's song i always wondered if Justina was as good a woman leliana made her out to be or just someone using her. i found it was a bit of both.Justina did want the best for leliana but had to use her skill to help with the chantry with a heavy heart. The fact she want to release Leliana and tells her she failed her showed me she truly was a good woman and made me wish I did meet her. I actually cared that she died in contrast to how little I did at the beginning of the game.

 

....And then i found out I accidentally harden leliana...

[Shaftell]

I got ruthless Leliana and it was honestly very heartbreaking for me. She romanced my dwarf warden and I was honestly always enthralled by her character. Seeing her mentally broken and cold was just sad to see. She ended becoming divine in my game because I was romancing Cassandra, and Vivienne I just don't trust. If anyone deserves to be divine it's the Right or Left hands of the deceased Justinia.

[l7986]

Ruthless Leliana all day every day. I head canon that my elf HoF becomes her right hand and when she isn't out assassinating people for Leliana, she's having angry sex with her somewhere in the White Spire, or on the Sunburst Throne.

[Jackal19851111]

In DAO I "hardened" her as I felt she shouldn't feel guilty of who she is, and should accept herself.

 

In DAI I never expected how ruthless she has become however.

[leaguer of one]

In DAO I "hardened" her as I felt she shouldn't feel guilty of who she is, and should accept herself.

 

In DAI I never expected how ruthless she has become however.

This.

I harden hardened her in DAO because I wanted her to be less of the religious nut and to have 3-4 ways. Turns out I was making her more of a religious nut.

What the hell have I done. 

[Jaison1986]

Ruthless Leliana if she does not become Divine since that's exactly what's needed for the job and Soft Leliana if she does become Divine.

Because no, murdering everyone who opposes while you are the head of a church is NOT a good idea.

 

Dude, the Chantry did that for centuries, I don't know what you're talking about. At least Leliana kills in order to change things. Some times you need to break a few eggs. 

[AlexiaRevan]

How do ya make her less ruthless in the keep ?? I havent found how...

 

Is it related to letting Marjolaine go away/kill her ?? 

[Former_Fiend]

I really hate the way they went about hardening/softening Leliana in DAI, and the consequences of it. 

 

I understand choices having impact and consequence, I support that. But the sequence of events in this situation is moronic.

 

I keep my mouth shut when Leliana orders the traitor-spy killed. Whether I agree or disagree with her decision to kill him is irrelevant; the fact is, I'm not the inquisitor when that conversation takes place. I'm just some shmuck they keep around due to the glowing hand. It is not my place to question Leliana's judgment or tell her how to do her job at this juncture, and she clearly knows more about the situation than I do from listening to ten seconds of it. 

 

I tell Leliana she made a mistake in calling her scouts back. That is objectively true. The scouts have one job; to scout. If they aren't in the field getting me intel, they need to be on their way back from the field bringing me intel, or on their way out to the field to get me intel. Leliana made a legitimate mistake in being overly cautious in this situation, and as Inquisitor, it's my job to hold her to account to it. 

 

Then comes her personal quest. She puts her knife to the sister's throat. I tell her not to kill the sister. She does it anyway. 

 

Because I chose not to tell her how to do her job when it wasn't my place to do so, and because I told her she made a mistake when she made a mistake, she took that to mean "Blatantly and brazenly disobey direct orders given to you by your commanding officer."

 

And there is nothing you can do about it. You can't physically stop her. You reprimand her or punish her in any way. 

 

This isn't about ruthlessness, or about how the two situations that lead to her hardening or unhardening are completely divorced in every respect from her killing Natalie. This is about blatant disregard for the chain of command and the impotence of the inquisitor to enforce their authority over their own subordinates.

 

That's what I hate about that situation.

 

And what I hate more about it is that it is ultimately going to be my canon because it wasn't my inquisitor's place to tell Leliana her business regarding the spy and my inquisitor abjectly believes Leliana made a mistake with the scouts and would absolutely tell her so.

[sylvanaerie]

*snip* 

 

Makes perfect sense to me.  You chose the hard answers (or lack thereof, in the case of staying silent for the spy) and it reinforced to her she had to be ruthless, that any other option was inconceivable.  She will even tell you (if you softened her) in a conversation afterward, that she would have killed Natalie and called it a 'good thing' if you hadn't stopped her.

 

It's not about chain of command, it's about speaking up and voicing your opinions to her when they can be effective.  If you aren't Corypheus expecting your people to be blindly obedient or ruthless to get their jobs done, then you have to do something about it, not reinforce their more ruthless tendencies.  One of the reasons you are fighting Corypheus is because he's lost his own humanity.  You are supposed to be better than that--unless you're playing an assquisitor.

 

Is it no wonder if you encouraged her earlier to be ruthless in the Inquisition's defense that she would find it unrealistic for you to suddenly get squeamish over an enemy's fate?

[Jaison1986]

Makes perfect sense to me.  You chose the hard answers (or lack thereof, in the case of staying silent for the spy) and it reinforced to her she had to be ruthless, that any other option was inconceivable.  She will even tell you (if you softened her) in a conversation afterward, that she would have killed Natalie and called it a 'good thing' if you hadn't stopped her.

 

It's not about chain of command, it's about speaking up and voicing your opinions to her when they can be effective.  If you aren't Corypheus expecting your people to be blindly obedient or ruthless to get their jobs done, then you have to do something about it, not reinforce their more ruthless tendencies.  One of the reasons you are fighting Corypheus is because he's lost his own humanity.  You are supposed to be better than that--unless you're playing an assquisitor.

 

Is it no wonder if you encouraged her earlier to be ruthless in the Inquisition's defense that she would find it unrealistic for you to suddenly get squeamish over an enemy's fate?

 

It's certanly not the first time. Alistair ignores the chain of command and deserts if you atempt to bolster the grey warden numbers. Personally, I don't see an problem with the Inquisitor voicing their opinion with Leliana regarding the traitor. As far as I know, you are one of the 5 founding members of the Inquisition. Your opinion is as valuable as hers.

[Dermain]

Makes perfect sense to me.  You chose the hard answers (or lack thereof, in the case of staying silent for the spy) and it reinforced to her she had to be ruthless, that any other option was inconceivable.  She will even tell you (if you softened her) in a conversation afterward, that she would have killed Natalie and called it a 'good thing' if you hadn't stopped her.

 

It's not about chain of command, it's about speaking up and voicing your opinions to her when they can be effective.  If you aren't Corypheus expecting your people to be blindly obedient or ruthless to get their jobs done, then you have to do something about it, not reinforce their more ruthless tendencies.  One of the reasons you are fighting Corypheus is because he's lost his own humanity.  You are supposed to be better than that--unless you're playing an assquisitor.

 

Is it no wonder if you encouraged her earlier to be ruthless in the Inquisition's defense that she would find it unrealistic for you to suddenly get squeamish over an enemy's fate?

 

While I see both of your arguments, I think the real difference comes from how you want to portray the Inquisitor.

 

It's really a roleplaying decision in which you either have to metagame to soften Leliana (if you don't like her ending as hardened), or as in Fiend's case to roleplay a reasonable expectation for the Inquisitor (and get a less than stellar outcome).

 

In the playthrough where I use a Warden that romanced Leliana I feel like I have to soften her (even if I don't think that the Inquisitor would do that) because of the way she speaks about (a living) Warden. This was mostly caused by the letter you get from (a living) Warden telling the Inquisitor to make sure that Leliana doesn't "stray from the light" (although I also have issues with that description - provided I am remembering it correctly). 

 

However, when I use a playthrough where my Warden didn't romance Leliana I feel less conflicted to harden her provided it fits with the character I have planned for my Inquisitor. Although, those are also the playthroughs where I don't make Leliana the Divine (although she can still become Divine if you don't support anyone) because my Inquisitor would be scared of the thought of having a hardened Leliana in such a position of power.

 

Ignoring the roleplaying factor, the Inquisitor may feel that it's going "to far" to kill Natalie even if they had supported/remained indifferent to the way Leliana handled her other two issues. Butler betrayed the fledgling Inquisition so it can be seen as reasonable to have him killed, but it's not always the optimal route. The problem with the scouts is a different issue entirely as she still could have warned the Inquisition that something had happened to her scouts regardless of her pulling them back. 

 

Edit: 

 

Since Leliana did not inform the Inquisition that she had lost contact with some scouts prior to the attack, it is also reasonable for the Inquisitor to scold her for not investigating further.

[vometia]

I don't like the new hard-arse Leliana. Although the difference isn't quite as extreme as Nice Anders vs. Anders The Wanker, they still took a likeable character and made her much less so.

[Lulupab]

I believe the word is hardened, not ruthless. Anyway I like hardened Leliana as Divine more than the soft. Its more realistic and this approach is needed based on the reforms she is planning to do. If you're not making her divine I think softened Leliana is better.

[InfinitePaths]

I believe the word is hardened, not ruthless. Anyway I like hardened Leliana as Divine more than the soft. Its more realistic and this approach is needed based on the reforms she is planning to do. If you're not making her divine I think softened Leliana is better.

 

Don't you want her to be one of those religious leaders who inspire nations just by the sheer power of their heartfelt speeches?

[Amirit]

To "soften" Leliana you have to forgive traitors left and right in the game - is it wort it? Considering she remains a spy master (or become the most important political figure in Thedas).

 

I am more interested what happen with hardened\not hardened Leliana from DAO. We have that option in the Keep - did anyone saw difference in the game?

[sylvanaerie]

To "soften" Leliana you have to forgive traitors left and right in the game - is it wort it? Considering she remains a spy master (or become the most important political figure in Thedas).

 

I am more interested what happen with hardened\not hardened Leliana from DAO. We have that option in the Keep - did anyone saw difference in the game?

 We don't have that option in keep. Regardless of what you did in Origins, by dint of all the crap she must do for the Divine and the passage of a decade of doing that, she's 'hardened' by default.  The only option you can do to soften her is by tempering her more ruthless tendencies at the proper time.

[leaguer of one]

 We don't have that option in keep. Regardless of what you did in Origins, by dint of all the crap she must do for the Divine and the passage of a decade of doing that, she's 'hardened' by default.  The only option you can do to soften her is by tempering her more ruthless tendencies at the proper time.

We kind of do. Killing her old spy mistress or not.

[sylvanaerie]

We kind of do. Killing her old spy mistress or not.

I didn't notice any different options in dialogue for dead Marjolaine or not, but then i wasn't looking for it.  Do you know if it makes a difference in Inquisition's dialogues?

[Lulupab]

Don't you want her to be one of those religious leaders who inspire nations just by the sheer power of their heartfelt speeches?

 

I highly doubt it will work in Thedas. She brings huge reforms to the table and she must be vigilant to see them happen. Anyone who opposes her will find a dagger across their throat. 

[Amirit]

 We don't have that option in keep. Regardless of what you did in Origins, by dint of all the crap she must do for the Divine and the passage of a decade of doing that, she's 'hardened' by default.  The only option you can do to soften her is by tempering her more ruthless tendencies at the proper time.

 

Agreed about decades of service. Though I thought "foursome" with her and Izabella was only possible with hardened Leliana and we do have a card with killed or saved Marjolene. 

 

Afaik, the first necessary step to soften her now is to not allow to execute an agent who sold several other agents which were killed as a result. Any interference in that dialog between Leliana and her agent at that point (we just got in Haven, still unfamiliar with anyone there with questionable status) looked impossible to me and absolutely inappropriate. So, my Leliana is never softened. 

[Former_Fiend]

Makes perfect sense to me.  You chose the hard answers (or lack thereof, in the case of staying silent for the spy) and it reinforced to her she had to be ruthless, that any other option was inconceivable.  She will even tell you (if you softened her) in a conversation afterward, that she would have killed Natalie and called it a 'good thing' if you hadn't stopped her.

 

It's not about chain of command, it's about speaking up and voicing your opinions to her when they can be effective.  If you aren't Corypheus expecting your people to be blindly obedient or ruthless to get their jobs done, then you have to do something about it, not reinforce their more ruthless tendencies.  One of the reasons you are fighting Corypheus is because he's lost his own humanity.  You are supposed to be better than that--unless you're playing an assquisitor.

 

Is it no wonder if you encouraged her earlier to be ruthless in the Inquisition's defense that she would find it unrealistic for you to suddenly get squeamish over an enemy's fate?

 

Beyond the fact the situations are entirely different and there are plenty of reasons to justify sparing her life in this stituation as opposed to the others, that's irrelevant. My orders don't need to be consistent. It isn't her call to make; I tell her not to kill that woman, she doesn't kill that woman, end of discussion.

 

But, alright, fine, she takes it upon herself to disregard a direct order. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that, from a story stand point. 

 

But in that situation, I need to be able to exercise my authority and punish her in some fashion. I have no need of a spymaster who thinks my orders are optional.

[Nayana_Jaz]

I hardened her in two of my four playthroughts, but I really prefer her softened in DAI. I like the way she acts as new Divine when she's not a ruthless b****.

[leaguer of one]

I didn't notice any different options in dialogue for dead Marjolaine or not, but then i wasn't looking for it.  Do you know if it makes a difference in Inquisition's dialogues?

No i don't. i still on my first playthough.

[leaguer of one]

Beyond the fact the situations are entirely different and there are plenty of reasons to justify sparing her life in this stituation as opposed to the others, that's irrelevant. My orders don't need to be consistent. It isn't her call to make; I tell her not to kill that woman, she doesn't kill that woman, end of discussion.

 

But, alright, fine, she takes it upon herself to disregard a direct order. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that, from a story stand point. 

 

But in that situation, I need to be able to exercise my authority and punish her in some fashion. I have no need of a spymaster who thinks my orders are optional.

Exatly. What happen when we can't control her anymore... A new Loghian, Lambert or Meredith?