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[Brass_Buckles]

Please, if there must be multiple heartbreaking romances in a given BioWare game, spread the heartbreak around.  Do not give these options only to female characters.

 

I appreciate tragedy and heartbreak... sometimes.  However, this has become a routine feature for BioWare games: if you happen to be playing a straight woman character, you have a very high chance of your character's love interest (if you pursue one) cheating, breaking up with you, leaving, or being deeply in love with someone else (usually a dead wife).

 

Most of us don't like heartbreak THAT much.  I don't care if the player is a man or a woman or a moose.  Heartbreak has its place, but if it were fun we wouldn't call it heartbreak.

 

Yes, it happens in the real world all the time.  Yes, it's okay (and even good) on occasion, even every other game, or every three games, and can make for an awesome story.  But please, spread that heartbreak around, and stop piling it all on the romance options for lady characters, and having it happen (often on more than one character) in every. single. game.

 

No, I'm not saying give the heartbreak to the LGBT community.  Goodness knows, they get enough of the heartbreak in pretty much every other medium.  But how about breaking the straight guys' hearts instead now and then, if you really want tragedy?  Men and women are equally capable of handling tragedy, so you would think that tragedy would be equally distributed.  It isn't.

 

Devoted fans (most of them women) have brought this up and brought this up, repeatedly, in the fan threads of our favorite characters who dumped us, cheated on us, died, etc.  It appears no one is listening, or that no one is taking us seriously.  So I feel that a thread should garner some attention to the problem, and hopefully reduce the number of heartbroken lady protagonists (and their players) out there.

 

Not all of us want Cullen or Kaidan types, and Cullen/Kaidan types are not the only kind of love interest that can both be interesting and end well.

 

Sometimes heartbreak and drama are awesome.  But, sometimes, plain old fluff is nice where the romances are concerned.  And sometimes, interesting plots and seeming inevitable failure is good, if it turns right around and ends well anyway.  Thedas in particular is a dark world, and I get that.  But can we not have a ray of hope at least in the form of a happy romance, so that our characters at least need not wander the ruined world alone after the story ends?

 

For those of you who don't understand what I am talking about, some instances of this in various BioWare games:

 

• Jacob, ME2 - Cheats in ME3 (inevitable)
• Thane, ME2 - Dies in ME3 (inevitable)
• Alistair, DA:O - Can Die, WILL Dump Non-Human or Mage if Made King, Can Cheat (Leliana, Morrigan).  Being his mistress is presented as a positive solution, though many people would find that unacceptable for a variety of reasons.  Of all of them, his involves the most choice, which makes it seem the least horrible--until you realize, the best option for Ferelden to rule is with him as king (if you are female) and either the Warden (if human noble) or Anora at his side.  Also if you don't do the Dark Ritual and take him with you to the final battle, his death is inevitable and cannot be interrupted by a female Warden who romanced him--also highly problematic.
• Morrigan, DA:O - Male only.  She leaves at the end.  This is fixed, though, via a DLC where the Warden can go rejoin her.
• Anders, DA2 - Both Genders.  Betrays Hawke - this is inevitable since it's part of the main plot. (Note, he's loyal if you let him live... and despite doing something ABSOLUTELY horrible, he gets a happy-ish ending?)
• Blackwall, DA:I - He lies about who he is, sleeps with the Inquisitor before the reveal (which is Not Okay), and if romanced, disappears from Skyhold post-game.  He is still available in-party, but he abandons his lover.
• Solas, DA:I - Breaks up with the Inquisitor immediately after giving the romance achievement and potentially stripping her of a vital part of her identity.  Seems to promise an explanation in some dialogue, but then vanishes without a trace.  Yes, it's for Major Plot Reasons, but there is basically no real closure.  Heartbreak, all around.

And I get that in DA2, any romance could potentially turn against you, based on your choices.  I list Anders only because it's inevitable.  Alistair hurting the PC is not inevitable, but it's ridiculously likely to happen given how many options there are to have everything go poorly for the Warden in that relationship--and I include him because of that and because without the Dark Ritual, you can't take him with you without him sacrificing himself without your say-so.  And then you get an achievement saying you told him to, even when you didn't.  Salt in the wound.

 

You'll notice there are only two characters men can romance that I've thought of on that list.  I'm sure I'm missing others for ladies, and maybe there's another tragic romance or two for guys that I'm missing.  Of the ones I can think of, though, only one is romanceable to straight men.  It's a trend geared toward female characters, and I repeat, not everyone likes that or wants it.

 

I'm not yelling "SEXISM" about it.  I am not sure why things skew this way.  Maybe the people who enjoy playing female characters at the BioWare offices all adore a good tragedy.  But I'm pretty sure, from the way conversations have gone on this point, that the majority of the fans, in fact, do not enjoy tragedy, or at least not the amount of tragedy that we are actually given for the female protagonists.

 

So please, please cut back on the number of heartbreak characters we get.  I'm not asking for them to all be taken away.  Sometimes, I WANT a good tragedy story; tragedy can be beautiful.  But I don't want half of my characters' options (or more) to lead to inevitable heartbreak.  There doesn't need to be one in every game--or if there is, sometimes, the male characters should get the heartbreak option.

 

If you agree or are in support of this request, please post.  I want BioWare to pay some attention to this and spread the heartbreak around!  (I'd say they should reduce it overall, if they can get over their fan tears addiction, but spreading it around works nicely--they get their fan tears, and female protagonists everywhere can have a reprieve.)

[Bliss]

Here here. I support this. Tragedy can be nice if tempered. But us females generally have to play Russian roulette when choosing who we romance.

[Grieving Natashina]

I haven't been exactly quiet about it either.  It's frustrating that they keep on insisting on this pattern.  I shouldn't have felt like I dodged a bullet by not romancing Blackwall, but I do.  I'm okay with tragic romances sometimes, but it's becoming a trend that I just don't like.  I wouldn't want any sexuality to go through this to this extent.  It reminds me of the Romance Tropes thread that Allan started back in late summer, where we talked about this quite a bit.

 

I wouldn't want a Shiny Happy Ending for all straight female romances.   It would be silly and out of tune with much of the tone of Dragon Age.  However, I find it interesting that out of the 3 male LIs available in the party, one dumps you and one's being lying from the start.  Iron Bull's romance does end on a very lighthearted note though.  I guess I want some balance between the two genders in terms of this kind of story.

[Brass_Buckles]

Here here. I support this. Tragedy can be nice if tempered. But us females generally have to play Russian roulette when choosing who we romance.

 

There are some guys who play ladies, too, and sometimes they even play straight ladies.  So while women tend to be more vocal about it when this happens, men are affected too.  I tried to word the post carefully to reflect that.  And, I certainly don't speak for everyone...

 

But yes.  I also feel that tragedy loses its impact if we get too much of it, and come to expect it.  And yet, you still walk away from the game at the end feeling like you've been sucker-punched.  Sometimes, instead of making me sad, it just makes me angry and frustrated--not at the character's situation, but at the writers for thinking this was a good idea.  Again.

[Bliss]

On the Blackwall romance

 

Spoiler

I am glad that I appreciate manly beards from a distance and not in romance settings. Because when I saw the scene where he basically dips out after sex. It was like WTF. That was so effing cheap. No matter the reasons it is so beyond SKEEZY. Waking up naked in a barn alone.....I was pissed just on principle. Glad I didn't go through that.

 

 

There are some guys who play ladies, too, and sometimes they even play straight ladies.  So while women tend to be more vocal about it when this happens, men are affected too.  I tried to word the post carefully to reflect that.  And, I certainly don't speak for everyone...

 

But yes.  I also feel that tragedy loses its impact if we get too much of it, and come to expect it.  And yet, you still walk away from the game at the end feeling like you've been sucker-punched.  Sometimes, instead of making me sad, it just makes me angry and frustrated--not at the character's situation, but at the writers for thinking this was a good idea.  Again.

 

When saying females, I meant the character. Not the player

[Brass_Buckles]

I haven't been exactly quiet about it either.  It's frustrating that they keep on insisting on this pattern.  I shouldn't have felt like I dodged a bullet by not romancing Blackwall, but I do.  I'm okay with tragic romances sometimes, but it's becoming a trend that I just don't like.  I wouldn't want any sexuality to go through this to this extent.  It reminds me of the Romance Tropes thread that Allan started back in late summer, where we talked about this quite a bit.

 

I wouldn't want a Shiny Happy Ending for all straight female romances.   It would be silly and out of tune with much of the tone of Dragon Age.  However, I find it interesting that out of the 3 male LIs available in the party, one dumps you and one's being lying from the start.  Iron Bull's romance does end on a very lighthearted note though.  I guess I want some balance between the two genders in terms of this kind of story.

 

This, precisely.  Not everything should necessarily end perfectly happily, but there are other ways to have an imperfect ending besides relying on the tragedy/heartbreak thing.  And, again, as you said, and as I said above, straight males can share some of the pain, too,  As it is, it feels as if the heartbreak-style romance is reserved pretty much for women--we do not get DLCs to save Thane, or to pursue a runaway Alistair if you chose to spare Loghain.  There is absolutely nothing we can do to prevent Jacob from cheating, or Blackwall from leaving, or Solas from breaking up immediately after we just told him we're fully committed to a relationship with him.

[Brass_Buckles]

On the Blackwall romance

 

Spoiler

I am glad that I appreciate manly beards from a distance and not in romance settings. Because when I saw the scene where he basically dips out after sex. It was like WTF. That was so effing cheap. No matter the reasons it is so beyond SKEEZY. Waking up naked in a barn alone.....I was pissed just on principle. Glad I didn't go through that.

 

 

 

When saying females, I meant the character. Not the player

 

I was glad I wasn't terribly interested in Blackwall, but I went for Solas.  If anyone was suited for a heartbreak ending, it's Solas.  And yet, because of his plot importance, I also feel it's highly important that the player get some closure with that romance.  There are lots of us over in the Solas thread who want a DLC, even if it means confirmation that it's truly and officially over--but we'd prefer something considerably happier.

 

Female protagonists don't usually get DLC to make things all better and put a Band-Aid on the wound, though; however, much as I'd like some Solas resolution DLC, I'm not really asking for it here.  Just... less pain in the future would be nice, yes?

 

to BioWare anyway.  Wouldn't bother complaining if I didn't love 'em enough to care.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I've been complaining about this for a while.

 

It's a bit absurd at this point. Give another group the drama please. It's gotten old a while ago.

 

I mean thinking on it...if it wasn't for Cullen's extra romance my options would've been between a liar (on that gets on a high horse at that) or BDSM king. (And I love Bull's mance don't get me wrong but really? Those would've been my options?)

[Dakota Strider]

Speaking from the male perspective only, before DAO, it seemed like almost every Bioware fantasy romance option (can't speak for games I haven't played) likely had a heartbreak ending.  Weren't most of the BG2 female choices flawed somehow? 

Viconia- rewarding story, as the Hero could move her away from evil, yet in the epilogue, she ends up being murdered by assassins.

Aerie- It was easier to feel sorry for her, than see her as a romance option.  Very whiney.

Jaheira-Nothing like trying to romance a bitter, recent widow, who used to babysit you.  Still, was a well written character...but definitely heartbreak involved.

 

NwN1-  From what I recall, only one option, Aribeth.  And if that was not a case of heartbreak, I do not know what is. No matter what the Savior of Neverwinter City did, to save the sorry butts of Lord Nasher and all his pathetic subjects, his girlfriend was going to be executed, without even a chance to protest.  They tried to make up for it, in the third installment, by letting you romance her ghost  (golf clap).

 

DAO:  Morrigan was probably the best written romance, imo, of any I have played.  Even when she ran away, you had the option to chase after her.  And so, it was satisfying, even before the Witch Hunt DLC.  Leliana was good, too.  Just did not seem to have the complexities to make it as memorable.

 

DA2:  Merrill barely felt like a romance, not sure why.   Then with Isabella, it felt like she was playing you the whole time.  I believe the OP commented on how Alistair might cheat on you?  Isabella made you feel like you had to take a number and wait in line. 

 

DLI:  Cassandra was surprisingly decent, at least up to the point where the big love scene was.  After that....apparently the writers had better things to do.

        Cannot comment much on Josephine.  She seemed to be a fairly well written character, and the flirts were fun, before I made the decision to romance Cassandra.  Not interested enough to replay the game yet, to see how the Josephine romance turns out.  I have the feeling Cassandra would have been the better of the two choices.

  

So, while I can understand where you are coming from OP, and would be happy to see you get your wish, it hasn't exactly been all shiny on the other side of the spectrum. 

[herkles]

There are some guys who play ladies, too, and sometimes they even play straight ladies.  So while women tend to be more vocal about it when this happens, men are affected too.  I tried to word the post carefully to reflect that.  And, I certainly don't speak for everyone...

Tis me. I am a straight guy, but I play females far more then I play men. i honestly can't say why, but I just enjoy playing as women more then men. 

 

Of course the thing that annoys me the most about solas is not the heartbreak, but the lack of conclusion. the very moment that lavellan confirms her love for solas, he breaks it off with a promise to tell her why. Lack of closure is more annoying to me. 

 

But I do like to have more opitions besides puppy sweet like cullen or heartbreak. we can have drama and love without breaking hearts after all.  I do wonder how it would be if the romance opitions for male characters were more heartbreak.

[Grieving Natashina]

 

Speaking from the male perspective only, before DAO, it seemed like almost every Bioware fantasy romance option (can't speak for games I haven't played) likely had a heartbreak ending.  Weren't most of the BG2 female choices flawed somehow? 

Viconia- rewarding story, as the Hero could move her away from evil, yet in the epilogue, she ends up being murdered by assassins.

Aerie- It was easier to feel sorry for her, than see her as a romance option.  Very whiney.

Jaheira-Nothing like trying to romance a bitter, recent widow, who used to babysit you.  Still, was a well written character...but definitely heartbreak involved.

 

NwN1-  From what I recall, only one option, Aribeth.  And if that was not a case of heartbreak, I do not know what is. No matter what the Savior of Neverwinter City did, to save the sorry butts of Lord Nasher and all his pathetic subjects, his girlfriend was going to be executed, without even a chance to protest.  They tried to make up for it, in the third installment, by letting you romance her ghost  (golf clap).

 

DAO:  Morrigan was probably the best written romance, imo, of any I have played.  Even when she ran away, you had the option to chase after her.  And so, it was satisfying, even before the Witch Hunt DLC.  Leliana was good, too.  Just did not seem to have the complexities to make it as memorable.

 

DA2:  Merrill barely felt like a romance, not sure why.   Then with Isabella, it felt like she was playing you the whole time.  I believe the OP commented on how Alistair might cheat on you?  Isabella made you feel like you had to take a number and wait in line. 

 

DLI:  Cassandra was surprisingly decent, at least up to the point where the big love scene was.  After that....apparently the writers had better things to do.

        Cannot comment much on Josephine.  She seemed to be a fairly well written character, and the flirts were fun, before I made the decision to romance Cassandra.  Not interested enough to replay the game yet, to see how the Josephine romance turns out.  I have the feeling Cassandra would have been the better of the two choices.

  

So, while I can understand where you are coming from OP, and would be happy to see you get your wish, it hasn't exactly been all shiny on the other side of the spectrum. 

 

 

Oh, no one is claiming that male protagonists haven't gotten tragic romances.  Still, you notice something?

 

 

BG2: I'll grant you those.  However, that happened in 1999.  We're talking almost 16 years ago.

 

NWN: Also true, but you can find and reunite with her.  You can golf clap all you like, but it doesn't finalize on a tragic end.  You saved her literally from HELL.

 

Origins: Missing the point.  You can reunite with Morrigan as in a DLC.  Alistair will die unless you allow him to sleep with another woman.  If you romanced him, then you were very unlikely to pick up Loghain.   Otherwise, he takes the killing blow and there is zero that a romanced lady Warden can do about it.

 

Mass Effect: The female LIs (Liara, Tali, Miranda and Jack) all remain loyal and alive to Sheploo between games.  The only way they most of them die is via decisions in ME2.  Thane dies no matter what, but at least he got a heroic moment.  Jacob's behavior was just wrong.

 

DA2 Merrill: Merrill doesn't die; cheat on you; lie to you about her identity; dump you.  It may not seem like a "real romance" to you, but it is.  One that ends on a happy note.  Well, happy for D2.

 

Isabella: Granted to an extent.  She does lie to Hawke and basically starts the whole mess.  She does come back if you have enough friendship/rivalry.  If you've romanced her, then you've got enough of one or the other.

 

Cass: Does not have betrayal and tragedy.  Again, she doesn't lie; cheat; die; dump you unless you make her Divine.  The romance dialogue itself may be lacking, but I promise it isn't the same thing.

 

By that count, the last time male protagonists had two tragic romances after 1999.  I will count Aribeth and Isabela.  The amount of tragic romances for the female protagonist is much much higher.

[Ryzaki]

Speaking from the male perspective only, before DAO, it seemed like almost every Bioware fantasy romance option (can't speak for games I haven't played) likely had a heartbreak ending.  Weren't most of the BG2 female choices flawed somehow? 

Viconia- rewarding story, as the Hero could move her away from evil, yet in the epilogue, she ends up being murdered by assassins.

Aerie- It was easier to feel sorry for her, than see her as a romance option.  Very whiney.

Jaheira-Nothing like trying to romance a bitter, recent widow, who used to babysit you.  Still, was a well written character...but definitely heartbreak involved.

So, while I can understand where you are coming from OP, and would be happy to see you get your wish, it hasn't exactly been all shiny on the other side of the spectrum. 

 

Um...what?

 

Also you're really bringing up BG2? Where you had 3 romance options to fem PC's one? (And god there was so many ways to screw up his romance granted given his level of douchebaggery why would you want to romance him at all).

 

Aribeth I'll give you.

 

Also Bastila, Silk Fox and Dawn Star are all before DAO and none of them have unavoidable bad endings. Regardless of your PC's alignment. Where's if your DS you can kiss your Carth romance goodbye and the Sky's romance ending has a questionable tone (which baffling enough isn't even there if you romance him with a dude so WTF).

[Bliss]

NWN, do you remember the option for females? Yeah, I had to go look for his name. He was that insignificant. Nor was he mentioned in later installments. Later installments give you a better option, but still less than their male counterparts. So should we be adding disposable to our list of things females characters can use to describe their LIs?

[Kimberly]

I support this 100% I loved the Thane romance, was one of my favorites. The tragedy/heartbreak romances are getting old.

[Isaidlunch]

I think we need more tragic romances like Thane or Rivalry Anders where it's beyond the LI's control instead of tragic because the LI decides that something else is more important than the PC.

[Grieving Natashina]

NWN, do you remember the option for females? Yeah, I had to go look for his name. He was that insignificant. Nor was he mentioned in later installments. Later installments give you a better option, but still less than their male counterparts. So should we be adding disposable to our list of things females characters can use to describe their LIs?

Gend I think he name was?  I'm not trying to make a joke either.  I was straight up surprised that there was a romance for the lady hero at all in NWN OG.  Then when I was told it was Gend I'm like "That guy that wasn't even attached to the plot?"  

 

I'm glad that Valen was around for the final expac, but otherwise that was not their best move.  David Gaider has no problem admitting that though.

[Shades of Night]

I love tormenting my characters, but I agree that straight female characters certainly seem to get the majority of the tragedy. It's especially frustrating when you have something like the situation with Thane in ME that had a large number of people asking or pleading with Bioware to give him a cure in ME3. So what did they do? Killed him right in front of the player. At least if they'd left him still alive but uncured at the end it would have been up to the players imagination.

 

And then there's also the number of romances that have dead women in their lives.

 

Baldur's Gate 2: Anomen has a dead sister who he idolized. (Kivan in BG1 also has a dead wife, but he isn't a romance)

Neverwinter Nights: I think Valen had a dead lady friend who'd tried to help him.

Kotor: Carth has a dead wife (plus kid gone off the rails).

Mass Effect: Thane has pretty much the same situation as Carth, dead wife (and a living but off the rails kid)

Dragon Age: Zevran has a dead lady friend.

(Dragon Age 2: Anders lost Karl at the start who was his lover, though this isn't mentioned for a female romancing him)

 

Actually, I think Inquisition may be the first to break from the dead past lover/woman trend. Unless there's one that I don't recall being mentioned.

 

Anyway, maybe straight female Inquisitors will get lucky and at least Solas will give some closure in future DLC similar to the way Morrigan did? (though I'm pessimistic)

[Chaos17]

Like someone said : too much drama is not good.

Players will be accosutmed to it and won't find interesting in the long term.

[Bliss]

I mean I like Aarin, even more props to the fact he was not a typical white LI. But, sadly, he was so easy to miss. And, again was shoved right under the carpet after the game. Valen was sexy though. But they also added another LI for males. So Aribeth and the addition of Nathyrra. Happy ending possible with both.

[Lulupab]

I was very worried about Anders, but he turned out quite OK so I'm glad he is not on the list of "breakup romances". 

 

But I do support this thread, it sucks that we always get the tragic romances. I mean one time is enough, stop with the pattern. In ME3 my best playthough was m/m romance with Kaidan, I generally like gay romances as well and they don't seem tragic. I'm romancing Dorian right now and its quite good, I promised to go to Tevinter with him.

 

I have high hopes for a DLC to explore Solas romance like witch hunt.

[Grieving Natashina]

I think we need more tragic romances like Thane or Rivalry Anders where it's beyond the LI's control instead of tragic because the LI decides that something else is more important than the PC.

You're just counting Thane and Rival Anders?  Hi Jacob, nice to see you got another woman pregnant while I was jailed on Earth.  Hello, Solas in the recent game, who has much better things to do then stick around.  

 

You know what three out of four of them have in common?  They are romances for the lady heroes only. 

[Chiramu]

I support this 100% I loved the Thane romance, was one of my favorites. The tragedy/heartbreak romances are getting old.

 

More Disney with your Dragon Age then?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Cass: Does not have betrayal and tragedy.  Again, she doesn't lie; cheat; die; dump you.  The romance dialogue itself may be lacking, but I promise it isn't the same thing.

Incorrect. Cassandra breaks off the romance if she becomes the Divine. If Alistair counts for doing that but you have the option to be his mistress so you're still together, then Cassandra definitely counts since it is the same thing except you don't have the option to remain her lover. 

[Brass_Buckles]

I will grant Dakota Strider one thing, he's pointing out some BioWare romances that I missed, because I started playing BioWare games with Dragon Age: Origins (then moved on to Mass Effect, played Jade Empire, KOTOR... basically became a big fan of BioWare, but I still missed stuff).

 

However, the games he lists WERE not really recent, and a lot of newer players probably have no idea about them.  Plus, as others pointed out, women back then only had one option per game for romance; LGBT likely had none--I don't know since I never played those games.

 

As for the more recent games, I can't help but think that a large part of the problem is because a large number of people at BioWare enjoy tragedy--or at least the ones who play women do.  Or maybe they think because of the Lifetime channel, women like tragedy.  Or maybe the ladies they ask for advice on writing romances for women are particularly fond of sad, heartbreaking stories.

 

I don't pretend to know.  I'm just pointing out that there's a problem and I'd like to see things be more balanced, and the tragedy/heartbreak toned down so that when we do get tragedy or heartbreak (as opposed to the many, many in-betweens that could happen between Rainbows and Butterflies and MY HEART IS HURTING), it's more meaningful and makes for a beautiful story.

[Lulupab]

You're just counting Thane and Rival Anders?  Hi Jacob, nice to see you got another woman pregnant while I was jailed on Earth.  Hello, Solas in the recent game, who has much better things to do then stick around.  

 

You know what three out of four of them have in common?  They are romances for the lady heroes only. 

 

At least Solas has a much more convincing excuse. Jacob is an arsehole.