1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Felya87]

How would you write a "satisfying" ending (mind you, I find the current ending to be very satisfying) to the Solas romance that wouldn't compromise the character?

 

first thing, I should have all the information we still don't have about his plan. But is hardly an impossibile task.

As I said, imagination.

 

Writing is sometime a puzzle game. Hard to do without all the pieces, isn't it?

 

the possibility, expecially since we still don't know where we are going with Solas's story, can be endless. Some tragic, some happy, some happy and tragic.

He can ask for help, he can end up giving us help, or became our enemy. Or all of these things. As long as it a choice, I would be more than happy to go to the "dark side" and make my character a villain to have those two together. Maybe not in every run, but at least is my choice.

[Sylvianus]

Vivienne isn't Cass' only alternative. Leliana is more lenient in her requirements. (It's hardening or softening her that becomes a pain). Also that's just it you have a choice. You can have a completely drama free romance there's no unavoidable hurdle. Cass isn't gonna bust out the "I'm becoming divine." unless your choices lead to that. If all the drama worked like that I'd be fine with it.

 

For example. To have bigger chances with Leliana you have to choose to conscript the templars or choose the mages as allies, which I don't want to see at all.

You have to choose Briala over Gaspard or Celene. Which I will never do. Thoses choices don't even affect your Lis, they are big choices which give you the power to shape the world, choices too important to be easily ignored just because I don't want to see my Li as a new divine lol. I'm not that shallow. 

 

I have to compromise what I would never choose and which doesn't follow what I want for my character and who he is, so what's the point ? If you are able to do that, fine for you, I'm not. I won't change my character, I just accept the way things are to be honest, and I'm fine with it.

 

And if you are fine with it, then too bad you weren't in my place and I didn't get four romances with two sweet romances, and two dramatic ones, I  would have been absolutely fine.

[Ryzaki]

 I'd much rather be the one forced to sleep with Morrigan to be with Leliana, or have Morrigan leave me and take my child with me. It's not like the Morrigan ring ending is any easier to acquire and has numerous bugs surrounding it. 

 

Oh and let's not talk about the Zevran romance ending for a gay man. *wretch*

 

Blackwall is an amazing romance. He exiled himself from society for what he did, he's made up for what he's done a million times over. He still went back to face his demons beyond that. He's a man of incredible strength and character. 

 

But tell me how Cullen pushing for annulling the entire ferelden circle makes him better than Blackwall. Or shall we talk of Zevran who has killed callously for money and doesn't even regret it. Or should we talk of the inquisitor whose can be anything from a spy to a criminal. We condemn what Blackwall did because he shows remorse and admits it was wrong. But it's hardly the worst thing done by a companion or even player character in the Dragon Age universe. 

 

You can hate Blackwall for what he did. I love him for what he is. 

 

Bottom line I think that romances shouldn't be a priority. Character first. If they removed Blackwall's background and made him just a standard Grey Warden, just so people could feel good about the romance, I'd be disappointed. 

 

YMMV. Also you don't have to sleep with Morrigan to be with Leliana. Loghain can be recruited with hardened Alistair married to Anora it damages the friendship yes but it clearly can recover. I can't do that with an Alistair romance. (It's actually why in the end I started romancing Leliana. I can avoid the DR, have a living Alistair and have a happy romance).

 

What's wrong with Zevran's romance ending for gay men that's not there for straight females?

 

lol but wasn't strong enough to admit the truth to the PC instead running off in the night like a thief.

 

Really? You want to compare Cullen who had been tortured by mages to Blackwall who fully admits to doing it for money? Really? Also I never said Zev was a good person. His romance doesn't have any BS though. He's quite honest for an assassin.

 

Which is great! That really doesn't negate the fact that he lies to the PC about who he is throughout a vast majority of the romance. And there's no avoiding this (you can't figure out the truth before hand).

 

That's great for you really. I personally would rather the gotcha! LI be a male PC LI.

[Ryzaki]

For example. To have bigger chances with Leliana you have to choose to conscript the templars or choose the mages as allies, which I don't want to see at all.

You have to choose Briala over Gaspard or Celene. Which I will never do. Thoses choices don't even affect your Lis, they are big choices which give you the power to shape the world, choices too important to be easily ignored just because I don't want to see my Li as a new divine lol. I'm not that shallow. 

 

I have to compromise what I would never choose and which doesn't follow what I want for my character and who he is, so what's the point ? If you are able to do that, fine for you, I'm not. I won't change my character, I just accept the way things are to be honest, and I'm fine with it.

 

And if you are fine with it, then too bad you weren't in my place and I didn't get four romances with two sweet romances, and two dramatic ones, I  would have been absolutely fine.

 

It's very easy to justify conscripting the templars. All my characters do so. The templars had just gotten all of them nearly enslaved to Corypheus because their leadership was bad. Hell I just did it and during the quest Cass even suggests you do so (then disapproves when you actually do it but there you go). Remember the templars despite being conscripted agree to go with you. Barras is the one who asks what should they do.

 

Briala over Gaspard or Celene is also something I easily did.

 

It's just creating a different character concept or slightly tweaking the one you're already using. But if you're not that shallow you can just accept the romance as it is. That doesn't change the whole point that if you don't want to lose Cass you have a way to make it a complete non issue.

 

That is ultimately something you choose though. You're not being railroaded.

 

Your choices aren't "drama or not romance Cass" your choice is "Do X for no drama while romancing Cass or Don't do X and get drama"

 

Believe me I'm glad we got the extra content because if not for the extra romances my only real choice would've been Bull XD I like bull mind but still.

[whitless256]

You're comparing a story that ended happily eventually to romances that have an unavoidable sad ending that will never change? You thinking that the Morrigan romance would end badly is negated by the fact that it didn't. It, in fact, has one of the most satisfying BioWare romance endings ever. The heartbreak was fixed and the ending happy, so this example really doesn't count.

 

The point isn't that we want to change the characters. We're questioning why it is that only the male romance options have the story trajectories that end in heartbreak. These aren't real people and they and their romances are written with intent. You can't really say that it would have been impossible, for example, to make Thane's romance end happily or to not have Jacob cheat on you. It would not have been wildly out of character or anything like that.

 

And you're comparing a romance that took five years to resolve to several romances that has only existed for two months.   It's impossible to compare any of the romances because everyone has different opinions on how they were effected by them. 

 

Yes, it would be impossible to make Thane's romance end happily because he would have to LIVE.  It's clear from the get go that he is dying.  Having a happy ending with a living Thane requires rewriting him completely.  Jacob, I agree, was a jerk.

 

All the people arguing about which tragedy is more tragic and who has it worse and who's more heartbroken are missing the point.  All of this is based on perspective.  What is heartbreaking for one is not for the other.  What is annoying me is the people insisting that Alistair is more heartbreaking than Sera or Morrigan.  No one is more heartbreaking than anyone.  If there is a possible happy ending, you can avoid your heartbreak.  The only two that are not avoidable are Thane and Solas and both for VERY  clear plot reasons.

 

I've been trying very hard to play devil's advocate here, to point out that there are many different perspectives and definitions of tragedy and that people weigh different aspects of the game differently, but the only response I seem to get for the most part is "no, my pain is more painful than everyone else's pain."   Well... to you, it is.  But until Bioware starts writing games for you personally, they have to appeal to a wide audience and include variety.  That means not everyone gets their perfect ending. 

 

Romances have ALWAYS been a side plot in these games.  You can complete the full story without ever touching a romance.  Therefore you cannot alter characters or their plotlines to adhere to a notion of perfect romance if it would not benefit the story as a whole.  The romance comes second to the main plot, not vice versa.

[Uirebhiril]

So... really. This was posted to ask for consideration of how things go in the future. Examples were listed to support why such a thing is even being brought up. At this point I am confused why anyone is arguing about it at all. There's no debate to win or point to be made by telling someone else their point is wrong. If the writers feel it's a dumb request, they'll continue on as before. If the writers didn't realize that this was something people feel strongly about, they'll know now. I'm certain they know their business and whatever we say has minimal effect on their decisions and choices when writing a story or doing a character arc, but it certainly doesn't hurt to speak up. Whatever they might take away from this isn't going to ruin the story for anyone else.

[RynJ]

And you're comparing a romance that took five years to resolve to several romances that has only existed for two months.   It's impossible to compare any of the romances because everyone has different opinions on how they were effected by them. 

 

Yes, it would be impossible to make Thane's romance end happily because he would have to LIVE.  It's clear from the get go that he is dying.  Having a happy ending with a living Thane requires rewriting him completely.  Jacob, I agree, was a jerk.

 

All the people arguing about which tragedy is more tragic and who has it worse and who's more heartbroken are missing the point.  All of this is based on perspective.  What is heartbreaking for one is not for the other.  What is annoying me is the people insisting that Alistair is more heartbreaking than Sera or Morrigan.  No one is more heartbreaking than anyone.  If there is a possible happy ending, you can avoid your heartbreak.  The only two that are not avoidable are Thane and Solas and both for VERY  clear plot reasons.

 

I've been trying very hard to play devil's advocate here, to point out that there are many different perspectives and definitions of tragedy and that people weigh different aspects of the game differently, but the only response I seem to get for the most part is "no, my pain is more painful than everyone else's pain."   Well... to you, it is.  But until Bioware starts writing games for you personally, they have to appeal to a wide audience and include variety.  That means not everyone gets their perfect ending. 

 

Romances have ALWAYS been a side plot in these games.  You can complete the full story without ever touching a romance.  Therefore you cannot alter characters or their plotlines to adhere to a notion of perfect romance if it would not benefit the story as a whole.  The romance comes second to the main plot, not vice versa.

 

Until there are female romance options that end terribly with absolutely no choice to change it, I'll say that the real tragedy has only been in the male romances. I'd venture to say objectively, actually. The heartbreak with Morrigan that resolves very happily can't be compared to the heartbreak of a character dying horribly in front of you.

 

It's not that those things should never exist or that we want all perfect romances and that all that matters is our own pain, which you are pulling out from I'm not sure where. It's that only male romance options have those unavoidable tragic elements. The female ones never do. Those who play female characters are tired of the tragedy only being for them and would prefer it to be spread across all characters if it must be there. The Alistair example comes up a lot because, in order for you both to live, you must force Alistair to do a very, very disturbing act. That for many far trumps elements in Morrigan or Sera's romances. Not that Sera's is even tragic in any way?

 

If you're so for the importance of variety, don't you agree with the OP's point? That if these options must exist, they should be spread further and female romances should have them too. The lack of that is what we find bizarre and what many find unfair. Some don't like walking through a minefield when it comes to choosing their romance options while others get to skate.

 

Also, there could have been a cure for Thane. If I recall correctly, that option was even thrown around and some writers wanted it but then ultimately it didn't happen. Him dying is not part of his character personality, it's a story direction the writers chose to go in that they did not have to go in and that a majority of fans didn't even seem to want.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I just would rather get fewer drama laden LIs in the future. Share the love BW.

 

[Ryzaki]

Eh Thane dying wasn't much of an issue with me.

 

The utterly absurd and ridculous way it came about though...(jumping on Kai Leng's sword? ARE YOU SERIOUS. Why is Shep standing there like a moron?) was more of the issue.

 

Where's Miranda and Jack's death could be completely avoided depending on player actions.

[Sylvianus]

It's very easy to justify conscripting the templars. All my characters do so. The templars had just gotten all of them nearly enslaved to Corypheus because their leadership was bad. Hell I just did it and during the quest Cass even suggests you do so (then disapproves when you actually do it but there you go).

 

Briala over Gaspard or Celene is also something I easily did.

 

It's just creating a different character concept or slightly tweaking the one you're already using. But if you're not that shallow you can just accept the romance as it is. That doesn't change the whole point that if you don't want to lose Cass you have a way to make it a complete non issue.

 

That is ultimately something you choose though. You're not being railroaded.

 

Your choices aren't "drama or not romance Cass" your choice is "Do X for no drama while romancing Cass or Don't do X and get drama"

 

Believe me I'm glad we got the extra content because if not for the extra romances my only real choice would've been Bull XD I like bull mind but still.

 

But I don't want to conscript the templars, even if I could retcon a bit my character and find some excuses. I always wanted them as allies, and my character has many cousins among them, he wanted to join them just before the conclave. I don't want to have to follow a number of things to do during all the games for reasons which have nothing to do with the story I want to influence. My character has a world to shape according to what he believe in and what I want. So it is obviously out of question to conscript the templars and after to choose Briala just to be sure to have Cassandra in the end ! XD Doing it just because of a reason which has nothing with the stor is stupid.

 

Honestly, I don't think many would think fun to be forced to do many things opposed to what they want, things that you have to follow just to avoid a character to be far from you. 

 

The fact that it isn't unavoidable doesn't change the fact that some people lived the hearbreak you are talking about. It's not really what I would call a true choice. Especially in their first playthrough

 

A true choice would be within the romance plot. Like sacrifice something for Cassandra to be with her. There, it's  just out of story, I need to see the soluce and to do x and y that don't concern her at all just to be with my romance, that's lame. XD 

[Uirebhiril]

 

Honestly, I don't think many would think fun to be forced to do many things opposed to what they want, things that you have to follow just to avoid a character to be far from you. 

 

The fact that it isn't unavoidable doesn't change the fact that some people lived the hearbreak you are talking about. It's not really what I would call a true choice. Especially in their first playthrough

 

A true choice would be within the romance plot. Like sacrifice something for Cassandra to be with her. There, it's  just out of story, I need to see the soluce and to do x and y just to be with my romance, that's lame. XD 

 

 

You don't say.

[Ryzaki]

But I don't want to conscript the templars, even if I could retcon a bit my character and find some excuses. I always wanted hem as allies, and my character has many cousins among them, he wanted to join them just before the conclave. I don't want to have to follow a number of things to during all the games for reasons which have nothing to do with the story I want to influence. My character has a world to shape according to what he believe in and what I want. So it is obviously out of question to conscript the templars and after to choose Briala just to be sure to have Cassandra in the end ! XD Doing it just because of a reason which has nothing with the story is stupid.

 

Honestly, I don't think many would think fun to be forced to do many things opposed to what they want, things that you have to follow just to avoid a character to be far from you. 

 

The fact that it isn't unavoidable doesn't change the fact that some people lived the hearbreak you are talking about. It's not really what I would call a true choice.

 

A true choice would be within the romance plot. Like sacrifice something for Cassandra to be with her. There, it's  just out of story, I need to see the soluce and to do x and y just to be with my romance, that's lame. XD 

 

But that's all avoidable is my point. You can have a drama free romance with Cassandra. You just don't want to make the options to do so.

 

I'd love to be able to get a drama free romance with Alistair. But I can't. There's no avoiding it outside not romancing him period. If I could just slightly tweak a character concept to avoid nonsense like the DR? I'd do so gladly. But I can't.

 

I never said the male options didn't have heartbreak. But they do tend to be A. Avoidable (you can avoid it. You not wanting to do so because you don't like the method is another matter) and B. They get far less of them than the females do.

 

Eh what's lame to you is something someone else could only wish they'd get as you said earlier.

[Felya87]

But I don't want to conscript the templars, even if I could retcon a bit my character and find some excuses. I always wanted them as allies, and my character has many cousins among them, he wanted to join them just before the conclave. I don't want to have to follow a number of things to do during all the games for reasons which have nothing to do with the story I want to influence. My character has a world to shape according to what he believe in and what I want. So it is obviously out of question to conscript the templars and after to choose Briala just to be sure to have Cassandra in the end ! XD Doing it just because of a reason which has nothing with the stor is stupid.

 

Honestly, I don't think many would think fun to be forced to do many things opposed to what they want, things that you have to follow just to avoid a character to be far from you. 

 

The fact that it isn't unavoidable doesn't change the fact that some people lived the hearbreak you are talking about. It's not really what I would call a true choice. Especially in their first playthrough

 

A true choice would be within the romance plot. Like sacrifice something for Cassandra to be with her. There, it's  just out of story, I need to see the soluce and to do x and y that don't concern her at all just to be with my romance, that's lame. XD 

 

*cough* Alistair is far worse *cough*

[whitless256]

Until there are female romance options that end terribly with absolutely no choice to change it, I'll say that the real tragedy has only been in the male romances. I'd venture to say objectively, actually. The heartbreak with Morrigan that resolves very happily can't be compared to the heartbreak of a character dying horribly in front of you.

 

It's not that those things should never exist or that we want all perfect romances and that all that matters is our own pain, which you are pulling out from I'm not sure where. It's that only male romance options have those unavoidable tragic elements. The female ones never do. Those who play female characters are tired of the tragedy only being for them and would prefer it to be spread across all characters if it must be there. The Alistair example comes up a lot because, in order for you both to live, you must force Alistair to do a very, very disturbing act. That for many far trumps elements in Morrigan or Sera's romances. Not that Sera's is even tragic in any way?

 

If you're so for the importance of variety, don't you agree with the OP's point? That if these options must exist, they should be spread further and female romances should have them too. The lack of that is what we find bizarre and what many find unfair. Some don't like walking through a minefield when it comes to choosing their romance options while others get to skate.

 

Also, there could have been a cure for Thane. If I recall correctly, that option was even thrown around and some writers wanted it but then ultimately it didn't happen. Him dying is not part of his character personality, it's a story direction the writers chose to go in that they did not have to go in and that a majority of fans didn't even seem to want.

 

I've said previously in the thread that I would LOVE for the tragedy to be spread around.  Had you been reading my posts you'd know that my argument is that I LIKE tragic stories and am arguing that they should continue to be included EVERYWHERE, not JUST for women.   My other point has been that not EVERYONE who plays female characters is sick of the tragedy.  I feel it's important that that point be brought up so that the other perspective is expressed.  And yes, some people seem to be asking for tragic romances for women be removed entirely.  Not everyone is saying this, but some are, and I am responding to that.

 

And frankly, the whole "if it's avoidable, it doesn't count" argument cannot be used to disregard Cassandra's dumping of your character while also used to justify Alistair dumping you.  BOTH are avoidable and require a walkthrough to avoid.  You can't argue one counts and the other doesn't.

 

Also, by saying Thane dying is a "story direction the writers chose" is supporting my point.  The writers should write the character FIRST, then the romance.  Nothing in a character's story should be altered to apeal to people who want a happy ending romance.  The writers decided Thane would die.  Having him be an LI should not change that fact.

[RynJ]

I've said previously in the thread that I would LOVE for the tragedy to be spread around.  Had you been reading my posts you'd know that my argument is that I LIKE tragic stories and am arguing that they should continue to be included EVERYWHERE, not JUST for women.   My other point has been that not EVERYONE who plays female characters is sick of the tragedy.  I feel it's important that that point be brought up so that the other perspective is expressed.  And yes, some people seem to be asking for tragic romances for women be removed entirely.  Not everyone is saying this, but some are, and I am responding to that.

 

And frankly, the whole "if it's avoidable, it doesn't count" argument cannot be used to disregard Cassandra's dumping of your character while also used to justify Alistair dumping you.  BOTH are avoidable and require a walkthrough to avoid.  You can't argue one counts and the other doesn't.

 

Also, by saying Thane dying is a "story direction the writers chose" is supporting my point.  The writers should write the character FIRST, then the romance.  Nothing in a character's story should be altered to apeal to people who want a happy ending romance.  The writers decided Thane would die.  Having him be an LI should not change that fact.

 

Then you agree with the OP's point and the point of pretty much everyone here. What are you even arguing for? 

 

Also, I don't remember anyone making blanket statements like you're saying and maybe you should read a little closer also. Many people in the thread don't appreciate the tragedy and you do. Nobody said that all women are sick of it that I remember, just that many are and that's true. If some would prefer no tragic romances at all, that's their opinion that they're expressing and it's as valid as yours is. Some don't find tragic romance stories to be compelling at all and are tired of them, since we've had plenty already.

 

Do not go down the path of comparing the Cassandra situation to Alistair. They are not even in the same universe for very, very clear reasons. Both mean you ultimately have to make certain choices to end up happy with them, but Alistair's is exceedingly more disturbing. So sorry, but I will very much differentiate them.

[Shari'El]

But I don't want to conscript the templars, even if I could retcon a bit my character and find some excuses. I always wanted them as allies, and my character has many cousins among them, he wanted to join them just before the conclave. I don't want to have to follow a number of things to do during all the games for reasons which have nothing to do with the story I want to influence. My character has a world to shape according to what he believe in and what I want. So it is obviously out of question to conscript the templars and after to choose Briala just to be sure to have Cassandra in the end ! XD Doing it just because of a reason which has nothing with the stor is stupid.

 

Honestly, I don't think many would think fun to be forced to do many things opposed to what they want, things that you have to follow just to avoid a character to be far from you. 

 

The fact that it isn't unavoidable doesn't change the fact that some people lived the hearbreak you are talking about. It's not really what I would call a true choice. Especially in their first playthrough

 

A true choice would be within the romance plot. Like sacrifice something for Cassandra to be with her. There, it's  just out of story, I need to see the soluce and to do x and y that don't concern her at all just to be with my romance, that's lame. XD 

 

But if you go through all these choices (storywise) it means you support a certain ideology with your character, the chosen divine reflects that.

That's part of it. That's the character you chose to portray, and that characters' decisions make Cassandra being chosen as a divine, it'll be even pretty hypocritical of your character to oppose this decision

I didn't like the idea of hardening Alistair, I didn't want to! I like how childlike he was but I wanted my happen ending so there - I did.

 

I think most of the complainers here feel it's unfair they don't have any player agency when it comes to many of the straight female romance options.

 

If it bothers you so much make a thread about how you feel that romances for men suck or heartbreaking.

This thread is here for people who want to voice how they feel about this trend of inevitable-bad-endings-for-male-LIs.

 

Why is there so much resistance here? Why people feel the need to tell us we are wrong about how we feel?

Why are people feeling the need for giving us examples for bad female LIs? We are here to voice our opinion, our opinion is not less valid just because you have an opinion as well (that doesn't even clash with our opinion, as said - don't like females LIs? Open a thread about it, gain support, make your opinions be heard in hope BioWare will take notice and change something).

[Roxy]

Until there are female romance options that end terribly with absolutely no choice to change it, I'll say that the real tragedy has only been in the male romances. I'd venture to say objectively, actually. The heartbreak with Morrigan that resolves very happily can't be compared to the heartbreak of a character dying horribly in front of you.

 

It's not that those things should never exist or that we want all perfect romances and that all that matters is our own pain, which you are pulling out from I'm not sure where. It's that only male romance options have those unavoidable tragic elements. The female ones never do. Those who play female characters are tired of the tragedy only being for them and would prefer it to be spread across all characters if it must be there. The Alistair example comes up a lot because, in order for you both to live, you must force Alistair to do a very, very disturbing act. That for many far trumps elements in Morrigan or Sera's romances. Not that Sera's is even tragic in any way?

 

If you're so for the importance of variety, don't you agree with the OP's point? That if these options must exist, they should be spread further and female romances should have them too. The lack of that is what we find bizarre and what many find unfair. Some don't like walking through a minefield when it comes to choosing their romance options while others get to skate.

 

Also, there could have been a cure for Thane. If I recall correctly, that option was even thrown around and some writers wanted it but then ultimately it didn't happen. Him dying is not part of his character personality, it's a story direction the writers chose to go in that they did not have to go in and that a majority of fans didn't even seem to want.

 

Ran out of likes....

 

Hate it when that happens...

[whitless256]

Do not go down the path of comparing the Cassandra situation to Alistair. They are not even in the same universe for very, very clear reasons. Both mean you ultimately have to make certain choices to end up happy with them, but Alistair's is exceedingly more disturbing. So sorry, but I will very much differentiate them.

 

You are free to differentiate them and others are free to disagree.  That's the point I've been trying to make.  Everyone sees things differently.  Thus it's very hard to regulate what is a "tragic" romance and what is not for the purposes of seperating them out and evening them up among men and women.  That's the reason people are offering examples to the contrary. 

 

And the reason I'm offering my opinion on this is because I feel that I'd like my perspective represented in the discussion so that Bioware knows that the tragic female romances are not universally reviled.   I would rather they be true to a character's personality than bend that to make a happy romance.  That's why these are called discussion boards.  So that people can make their opinions heard and discuss things.

 

I'm sorry if some people feel like those of us that disagree are disregarding their feelings.  Romances in these games are very much BASED on feeling, so they can be a highly charged, emotional experience.  Tears are shed and you hurt when your character hurts.  That's why there are so many strong emotions here... and I, for one, am not trying to disrgard the emotions people feel for their characters' heartbreaks. 

 

But like I said in my initial post, I'm very confused on what everyone wants.  You are saying you want the pain spread around, but then you're saying that the tragic romances of past games (Thane, Jacob, Solas) shouldn't have been tragic.  So I think my one question would be, if Male Shep had an LI that died like Thane did, or a woman that cheated on him like Jacob did, would you have been less upset by those romances?  Or would you still be offering sugestions for how they could be changed to work out better?   I'm not asking in an acusitory fashion, but I'd like to know the answer so I can kind of get a feel for what the folks in this discussion really are advocating for.

 

If Josephine had walked out on my inquisitor to mary that Antivan noble due to family obligation and I had no way of stopping it, would Solas walking out for reasons of obligation be okay?

[Sylvianus]

But that's all avoidable is my point. You can have a drama free romance with Cassandra. You just don't want to make the options to do so.

 

I'd love to be able to get a drama free romance with Alistair. But I can't. There's no avoiding it outside not romancing him period. If I could just slightly tweak a character concept to avoid nonsense like the DR? I'd do so gladly. But I can't.

 

I never said the male options didn't have heartbreak. But they do tend to be A. Avoidable (you can avoid it. You not wanting to do so because you don't like the method is another matter) and B. They get far less of them than the females do.

 

Eh what's lame to you is something someone else could only wish they'd get as you said earlier.

 

But it's not  a slightly tweak. It's precisely about big choices which could shape the world, which is why it can't be so easily ignored. A choice would have been ' I ' supporting Leliana in the game, or having the means to remove Cassandra from the competition, even if it could have some slight consequences with the romance, and having Leliana as Divine or Vivienne, and finally Cassandra at my side.  there it would have been what I'd call inavoidable, a true choice, and which would totally respect my playthrough, while I did what needed to do to avoid that situation, which would make sense with my playthrough. But I had no choice at all despite everything I did in the game to avoid that. It didn't depend on me at all in my playthrough. It was just how the world was shaped like a keep import and it gave me a result that I didn't want but was powerless to change.

 

It's an option, for those who would be interested, yes, but don't count on me to call that crap a choice. I have seen many folks dealing with cassandra as a divine, despite not liking this ending, because they don't want to have to change how they shape the world, which has nothing to do with Cassandra, just to have her at their side. Because it is asking too much to be honest. 

 

And yes, straight women had more tragic romance sn the past, but given that in DAI they are very well, i don't get how this topic turned into oh straight women got the end of the stick again. ( basically ) I think you are fine today, while I supported you before. 

 

I don't get why people are talking about Alistair by the way. You can have an happy ending as her queen or her mistress. 

[Adynata]

 So I think my one question would be, if Male Shep had an LI that died like Thane did, or a woman that cheated on him like Jacob did, would you have been less upset by those romances?  Or would you still be offering sugestions for how they could be changed to work out better?   I'm not asking in an acusitory fashion, but I'd like to know the answer so I can kind of get a feel for what the folks in this discussion really are advocating for.

 

If Josephine had walked out on my inquisitor to mary that Antivan noble due to family obligation and I had no way of stopping it, would Solas walking out for reasons of obligation be okay?

 

The point is not that the romance plots would hurt less because misery loves company. The point of the thread is that these particular romances seem to be a running theme that forces players to face a disappointing and/or uncomfortable ending to their character's story. Lovelines are an important part of storytelling. How can a story have a truly happy ending if the loveline is tragic? 

 

I don't get why people are talking about Alistair by the way. You can have an happy ending as her queen or her mistress. 

 

Being someone's mistress is not a happy ending. And even if you are lucky enough to have started the game as a human noble so you can marry your LI, you still have to allow him to sleep with a woman who has consistently berated him and you all so she can have his baby, which you are plainly told you can never give him.

[Moirnelithe]

 You can have an happy ending as her queen or her mistress. 

How is having to tell your lover to sleep with morrigan (if you want to become queen instead of having a dead lover) a happy ending? And how is being a mistress a happy ending? Who wants to share their lover with Anora? Just the thought of it...ugh.

 

Anyway the point is nobody is saying they don't want a tragic romance at all, just the option to be able to avoid a terrible ending without being sabotaged to ridiculous levels.

[RynJ]

You are free to differentiate them and others are free to disagree.  That's the point I've been trying to make.  Everyone sees things differently.  Thus it's very hard to regulate what is a "tragic" romance and what is not for the purposes of seperating them out and evening them up among men and women.  That's the reason people are offering examples to the contrary. 

 

And the reason I'm offering my opinion on this is because I feel that I'd like my perspective represented in the discussion so that Bioware knows that the tragic female romances are not universally reviled.   I would rather they be true to a character's personality than bend that to make a happy romance.  That's why these are called discussion boards.  So that people can make their opinions heard and discuss things.

 

I'm sorry if some people feel like those of us that disagree are disregarding their feelings.  Romances in these games are very much BASED on feeling, so they can be a highly charged, emotional experience.  Tears are shed and you hurt when your character hurts.  That's why there are so many strong emotions here... and I, for one, am not trying to disrgard the emotions people feel for their characters' heartbreaks. 

 

But like I said in my initial post, I'm very confused on what everyone wants.  You are saying you want the pain spread around, but then you're saying that the tragic romances of past games (Thane, Jacob, Solas) shouldn't have been tragic.  So I think my one question would be, if Male Shep had an LI that died like Thane did, or a woman that cheated on him like Jacob did, would you have been less upset by those romances?  Or would you still be offering sugestions for how they could be changed to work out better?   I'm not asking in an acusitory fashion, but I'd like to know the answer so I can kind of get a feel for what the folks in this discussion really are advocating for.

 

If Josephine had walked out on my inquisitor to mary that Antivan noble due to family obligation and I had no way of stopping it, would Solas walking out for reasons of obligation be okay?

 

The differentiation people are mostly making is that only male romances so far have had unavoidable bad endings. Female ones never have. It's more the lack of choice than the existence of the tragedy. 

 

I don't think that they necessarily shouldn't have been tragic. I do personally think that there have been too many tragic male romance options but that's not just out of comparison to female romance options. When you compare the two, it seems worse for many who believe that the female romances for the most part lack tragic elements. I'd rather Thane have a happy ending if Jacob's was going to end up so terribly, for example. Otherwise I felt saturated with terrible endings. I don't want to tell BioWare what to do, but I'll say what I'd rather they do. That's not the point of this thread, though.

 

I think the examples you gave would have really lessened the feeling of inequality that is the basis of the thread. The unbalanced element is what causes the anger. Others will piggyback on the general idea and say that they don't like tragedy but the perceived inequality is at the heart of it and is the real point of the thread. In case you were confused about what the thread was asking for, since the discussion has since gone down multiple roads from the point first brought up.

[Sylvianus]

How is having to tell your lover to sleep with morrigan (if you want to become queen instead of having a dead lover) a happy ending? And how is being a mistress a happy ending? Who wants to share their lover with Anora? Just the thought of it...ugh.

 

Anyway the point is nobody is saying they don't want a tragic romance at all, just the option to be able to avoid a terrible ending without being sabotaged to ridiculous levels.

 

I thought people said that they aren't against some drama during the romance plot as long as it ends well ? Now you are telling that finally, you don't want drama at all ? 

 

And yes, if you are the mistress of Alistair, they are very happy. Alistair is only married politcally to Anora, but he doesn't care at all about her, and he spend most of his time with his darling, insulting even the queen. And when he isn't with her, he thinks only about her. So, yeah, where is your drama ? My own warden is her mistress, so I do know this ending.

[Ryzaki]

But it's not  a slightly tweak. It's precisely about big choices which could shape the world, which is why it can't be so easily ignored. A choice would have been ' I ' supporting Leliana in the game, or having the means to remove Cassandra from the competition, even if it could have some slight consequences with the romance, and having Leliana as Divine or Vivienne, and finally Cassandra at my side.  there it would have been what I'd call inavoidable, a true choice, and which would totally respect my playthrough, while I did what needed to do to avoid that situation, which would make sense with my playthrough. But I had no choice at all despite everything I did in the game to avoid that. It didn't depend on me at all in my playthrough. It was just how the world was shaped like a keep import and it gave me a result that I didn't want but was powerless to change.

 

It's an option, for those who would be interested, yes, but don't count on me to call that crap a choice. I have seen many folks dealing with cassandra as a divine, despite not liking this ending, because they don't want to have to change how they shape the world, which has nothing to do with Cassandra, just to have her at their side. Because it is asking too much to be honest. 

 

And yes, straight women had more tragic romance sn the past, but given that in DAI they are very well, i don't get how this topic turned into oh straight women got the end of the stick again. ( basically ) I think you are fine today, while I supported you before. 

 

I don't get why people are talking about Alistair by the way. You can have an happy ending as her queen or her mistress. 

 

See for me that's a slight tweak. For you it's a big deal. I'm pretty sure thats the point of this thread. And none of this changes the fact that again you have a choice. That's the point. You don't like the choice? Fine. But you have one. You can have a completely drama free romance with Cass.

 

It is a choice. Not liking your choices doesn't mean they're invalidated.

 

Simply saying it's a reoccurring theme with female getting the unavoidable (again unavoidable) drama laden romances.

 

You still have to do the DR. If there was a way to romance Alistair and avoid the DR BS I'd gladly take it even if that means I'd have to make different choices during my playthrough. I don't have such an option. You can avoid the divine breakup with Cass. You have the choice of a drama free romance with Cass. You not wanting to make the options to get it doesn't invalidate the fact that you have a choice.

[Shari'El]

I thought people said that they aren't against some drama during the romance plot as long as it ends well ? Now you are telling that finally, you don't want drama at all ? 

 

And yes, if you are the mistress of Alistair, they are very happy. Alistair is only married politcally to Anora, but he doesn't care at all about her, and he spend most of his time with his darling, insulting even the queen. And when he isn't with her, he thinks only about her. So, yeah, where is your drama ? My own warden is her mistress, so I do know this ending.

 

But they said the opposite "Anyway the point is nobody is saying they don't want a tragic romance at all, just the option to be able to avoid a terrible ending without being sabotaged to ridiculous levels."

We just want to ability to avoid horrible heartbreaking (like watching your LI die in front of your face), not tragedy all together.