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Please Make Fewer Heartbreak Romances for Women - Possible Spoilers


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#301
whitless256

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I believe this thread is largely about the preferences of heterosexual women players. If you're arguing against reducing the frequency of heartbreak romances for women because male players may enjoy playing women who are cheated on, lied to, and/or abandoned, I find that ... icky--but perhaps I mistake your meaning.

 

The thread title states "make fewer" not "eliminate" such romances for women. I think most understand that tastes vary and don't see folks arguing that Bioware should only write happy stories for female protagonists.  It's more that many of us feel that we've been overly blessed in the heartbreak department. The basic premises of many of the character arcs under discussion: terminal illness, cheating, a murderer passing themself off as a Grey Warden, obsession with a dead spouse could apply to a female love interest as well as a male. Think of us as willing to share the wealth.  :)

 

I also suspect that Blackwell would cause a lot less concern if his romance were originally conceived as one of four rather than as the heterosexual female's alternative to Iron Bull. I like the Bull a lot more than I expected to but having read Sten and Morrigan's exchange in DAO about the Qunari sex act, I can't imagine romancing him as a non-Qunari female. I don't see any character I would play romancing Blackwall, but could accept his inclusion as one of two if the other choice for the type of character I usually play were more traditionally appealing, not issue-free, but less problematic than Blackwall or a giant likely physically to injure a more petite partner.

 

I happen to be a heterosexual woman so... I feel I very much have a voice in this discussion.  I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm suggesting we keep in heartbreak because men like playing abused women but, jeez...  That's the first comment in this discussion that actually made my stomach turn.

 

But since you brought it up, why wouldn't this conversation be open to men who enjoy playing female protagonists? If there are men who prefer to experience the story as a female protagonist, why should they be excluded from the conversation?  I know they're out there cause some have posted.  Men can play games with female protagonists and relate to them just as well as women can relate to male protagonists.  There's no sick ulterior motive there.

 

And I did attempt to point out earlier that, as the thread derailed somewhat and people started advocating for having no heartbreak or changing heartbreak storylines, I wanted to be a voice for those of us who thought things were fine as is.  I'm not trying to accuse the OP or those that support her position of saying we need to eliminate heartbreak.  I was speaking to the people who started to derail the thread.

 

I still don't get the issue with Blackwall, though.  But I didn't have trouble forgiving him on the basis of the better man he's trying to become.  Though I haven't done the romance yet, I would be honored if my romantic relationship with him was as inspirational as my friendship with him was in encouraging him to face his demons and do the right thing.  That's just personal prefrence, though.  I can see where a lot of other people would feel very betrayed by him to the point of not wanting to continue a relationship. 


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#302
phaonica

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I happen to be a heterosexual woman so... I feel I very much have a voice in this discussion.  I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm suggesting we keep in heartbreak because men like playing abused women but, jeez...  That's the first comment in this discussion that actually made my stomach turn.

 

 

I'm a heterosexual woman, too, and I don't think those of us who like the occasional tragedy story do so because we like women to be mistreated. :(



#303
Ryzaki

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Pretty sure no one's saying those who like the occasional forced tragedy do like it because they like women to be mistreated.

 

That said it's pretty damn tiresome for it to be mainly for female PCs when it does occur and for us to get the bend over backwards and still have to deal with drama crapola versions. 


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#304
whitless256

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Pretty sure no one's saying those who like the occasional forced tragedy do like it because they like women to be mistreated.

 

That said it's pretty damn tiresome for it to be mainly for female PCs when it does occur and for us to get the bend over backwards and still have to deal with drama crapola versions. 

 

Actually the post I quoted above seemed to suggest that was my motivation... which is actually still bothering me a bit.   I'm glad to see that other folks don't think that's the case.



#305
Ceoldoren

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I'll point out that I'm a bisexual male if it matters at all. 

 

I'm not against toning down the amount of tragedy. But I feel it should not be toned down just for the sake of being toned down. If a characters arc is more suited to tragedy. Then their should be tragedy. Regardless of if he's a romance option, not a romance option, gay, straight, woman, man. It doesn't matter. 


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#306
Ryzaki

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Actually the post I quoted above seemed to suggest that was my motivation... which is actually still bothering me a bit.   I'm glad to see that other folks don't think that's the case.

 

Eh I doubt that's what she meant.

 

Honestly I'd been happy as a pig in **** as the saying goes if my drama romances were like Cass. People complaining about having to tweak some character decisions to avoid drama. I'd love to be able to do that! It'd take me five minutes (at most) to tweak my character concept then happily do my drama free romance. That's how tired I am of the often unnecessary drama. (And it's not even really tragic most of the time. It's melodrama and a lot of it occurs because stupidity and dishonesty and that's more irritating to me than anything else). It's not engaging. I'm more annoyed that it's occurring in the first place yet again than anything. (Solas on the other hand was engaging let's just see how his plot thread is wrapped up though. I'm hoping it's done well and not just swept under the rug).


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#307
phaonica

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I'll point out that I'm a bisexual male if it matters at all. 

 

I'm not against toning down the amount of tragedy. But I feel it should not be toned down just for the sake of being toned down. If a characters arc is more suited to tragedy. Then their should be tragedy. Regardless of if he's a romance option, not a romance option, gay, straight, woman, man. It doesn't matter. 

 

I agree. I think it shouldn't be toned down for the sake of it being toned down. However, I think that if it *is* being toned *up* for some reason then that shouldn't be occurring, either.



#308
phaonica

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Eh I doubt that's what she meant.

 

Honestly I'd been happy as a pig in **** as the saying goes if my drama romances were like Cass. People complaining about having to tweak some character decisions to avoid drama. I'd love to be able to do that! It'd take me five minutes (at most) to tweak my character concept then happily do my drama free romance. That's how tired I am of the often unnecessary drama. (And it's not even really tragic most of the time. It's melodrama and a lot of it occurs because stupidity and dishonesty and that's more irritating to me than anything else). It's not engaging. I'm more annoyed that it's occurring in the first place yet again than anything. (Solas on the other hand was engaging let's just see how his plot thread is wrapped up though. I'm hoping it's done well and not just swept under the rug).

 

What's wrong with the Cullen romance? What's the major drama there that I'm not aware of?



#309
Ceoldoren

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I agree. I think it shouldn't be toned down for the sake of it being toned down. However, I think that if it *is* being toned *up* for some reason then that shouldn't be occurring, either.

Oh yes, the reverse is very much true. More tragedy is certainly not necessary. I'm still recovering from Thane...



#310
Ryzaki

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What's wrong with the Cullen romance? What's the major drama there that I'm not aware of?

 

? Nothing. I have zero issues with Cullen's romance. Well other than him being gated to only humans and elves.

 

(I'm just remembering he is ultimately a bonus romance which means the original female options would've been Blackwall and Bull. One hand liar, other hand guy who tells you he knows what you want and that's to be dominated. Granted Cole sheds some much needed light on that but still.)



#311
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I wish there were heartbreak romances for straight males.  I am jealous of the potential of that Solas romance straight fem elf-quistor will have in the future.



#312
phaonica

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? Nothing. I have zero issues with Cullen's romance. Well other than him being gated to only humans and elves.

 

(I'm just remembering he is ultimately a bonus romance which means the original female options would've been Blackwall and Bull.)

 

I asked because you said "Honestly I'd been happy as a pig in **** as the saying goes if my drama romances were like Cass", but Cullen's romance (for example) *is* like Cass. You do have that option; you just don't have that option with everyone.


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#313
Ryzaki

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I asked because you said "Honestly I'd been happy as a pig in **** as the saying goes if my drama romances were like Cass", but Cullen's romance (for example) *is* like Cass. You do have that option; you just don't have that option with everyone.

 

I don't consider Cullen's a drama romance. I was referring more to Alistair and Blackwall with that comment if I could've just made some different decisions and avoided the DR or Blackwall lying I'd gladly taken it. My fault for not making that clearer ^_^

 

Also believe me I have no issue at all with some unavoidable tragic romances. They're just becoming a wee bit too common on the female side of things for me. The love can stand to be spread around.



#314
Grieving Natashina

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it looks to me like you're saying that the times that the female PC romance does NOT end in inevitable tragedy outweighs the times that they do. It seems that there are plenty of options for a romance that, while they include drama, end out alright.

See, the problem is the numbers.  Straight female heroes get less romances in most BW games.    As I mentioned before, four of the female LIs in ME2 stay loyal between games.  Two of the romances for fem Shep from ME2 end badly (cheating and death.)  That's out of four romances in that game.  And while there is two in ME3, one of them only works if you romanced them in between games.

 

Let's compare and contrast a bit.  This is who is available for the straight male hero:

 

In DA:O Leliana ends happily (and she remains with the Warden)  Morrigan's fate and potential happy ending does get addressed in a DLC.

 

DA2: Isabela has her share of tragedy and screw ups, but it doesn't take a lot of hoop jumping to win her back.  I mentioned earlier that she can still count, due to the sheer amount of lying she does, and chaos she causes.  Merrill's ends happily.

 

DA:I: Cassandra can dump the player, if you choose to make her Divine.  Josie is as loyal as they come.  Where's straight female characters do get more romances, one of them ends with a heartbreaker/cliffhanger, and the other turned out someone hiding a terrific crime.

 

Out of 6 romances across the DA games, only two of them have a sucker punch for the straight male hero.  Out of 9 romances for the female character, 2 of them end in tragedy, one demands that you kill Anders or they'll raze a city (oh hai Seb,) one was using you and your organization to cover up a horrific lie (complete with identity stealing) and one of them requires some insane hoop jumping to earn your happy ending (Alistair).  That's more than 1/2 of the total relationships for the straight female hero in the entire series.

 

Straight male LIs in ME:

 

ME1: Liara and Ashely.  Provided you save the latter, she does come back to you in ME3

ME2: Miranda, Tali, Jack, Liara (DLC)--Again, none of them leave you or cheat on you in between games.

ME3: All of the above remained loyal if alive.

 

None of them cheat, hide their identity, lie with nearly every breath or die in between games regardless of player invention.  Out of the 5 romances for the straight male hero, none of them do any of those things.

 

Out of the 4 romances for the straight female hero between games, one cheats, one dies and and one isn't available in ME3 unless you romance them in the previous game.


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#315
DarthEmpress

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I think the major point here is: spread the love angst.  Don't just limit "tragic" possibilities to heterosexual female romances.


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#316
Jayce

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At least the female hetero-romances don't develop into metaphysical prostitution!

 

Honestly, you want a happy ending with the woman who ran off carrying your child? You have to pay for it.

 

Want to rekindle that awesome romance with Dr T'Soni?

 

Yup, you need to pay for it.

 

Wanna make it up with Ashley?

 

You have to buy the sequel! 



#317
Ryzaki

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At least the female hetero-romances don't develop into metaphysical prostitution!

 

Honestly, you want a happy ending with the woman who ran off carrying your child? You have to pay for it.

 

Want to rekindle that awesome romance with Dr T'Soni?

 

Yup, you need to pay for it.

 

Wanna make it up with Ashley?

 

You have to buy the sequel! 

 

Eh they get the females too.

 

Kaidan suffers same issues Ashley has and Thane apparently is ignored unless you get the Citadel DLC. (That also lets' you perv on Vega and has Javik perve on you...so... :unsure: )


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#318
Brass_Buckles

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I think the major point here is: spread the love angst.  Don't just limit "tragic" possibilities to heterosexual female romances.

 

Basically, this.  It'd be okay if the same number of heartbreakers/liars/cheaters etc. existed in all the games, if that's what BioWare wants to do... but only if they were evenly spread out, so that one group didn't get more of the tainted love, so to speak, than others.


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#319
Dakota Strider

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Leliana: can end happily.  Though for some reason, she is running off doing other things, than being with the Warden.  And if she becomes the Divine, that relationship has ended.  Probably the "best" of the outright happy endings romance choices.

Morrigan:  It was a sucker punch ending.  But it was still a good ending.  While there is life, there is hope, right?  A year later, hope is fulfilled.  But, just because we can look back now and say it was a good ending, does not mean that is the way Origins ended.  Definitely a roller coaster ride.  And probably the best BW romance, because of that.

Isabella:  I will concede that Isabella has a good heart.  Deep down, somewhere inside.  But hey, floozies need love, too.  Too bad Thedas doesn't have clerics that can cast Cure Disease, just to be safe.

Merrill:  Well, nothing wrong with her, as long as you don't mind your LI to act like an adolescent...oh and is a blood mage, that gets her own people killed because of her obsession with blood magic.  Not evil (yet), but definitely just one miscast blood spell away from being an abomination.

Aveline:  People always fail to list Aveline as an LI, but all the flirt/romance options were there in your conversations with her.  She was my initial interest in the game, and it was definitely a kick in the gut when she "just wanted to be friends", and went after that ugly guard instead.

Cassandra:  If played right, is the perfect "Disney" girlfriend.  Only thing is, in most Disney movies, there is more conflict involved before boy gets girl.  Just too easy.  Still, a nice character...just felt like the writers did not do enough with her.

Josephine:  Careful, you might develop diabetes from this one. 

Not really sure why anyone is envious of the Cassandra or Josephine romances.  They were dull/tame/boring/easy. 

 

Since I cannot speak with any experience of the ME romances from either perspective, I won't.  But just because not everyone has not played older Bioware romances from BG2 or NwN1, does not mean they did not happen.  Two of the worst cases, imo, were the Aribeth and Viconia being killed at the end of the game, totally out of the player character's control, no matter what decisions he made during the game.

 

Not trying to make this a contest.  But every time someone tries to tell me that it has been all rosy from the perspective I play from, I feel the need explain things from my experience.


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#320
whitless256

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See, the problem is the numbers.  Straight female heroes get less romances in most BW games.    As I mentioned before, four of the female LIs in ME2 stay loyal between games.  Two of the romances for fem Shep from ME2 end badly (cheating and death.)  That's out of four romances in that game.  And while there is two in ME3, one of them only works if you romanced them in between games.

 

Let's compare and contrast a bit.  This is who is available for the straight male hero:

 

In DA:O Leliana ends happily (and she remains with the Warden)  Morrigan's fate and potential happy ending does get addressed in a DLC.

 

DA2: Isabela has her share of tragedy and screw ups, but it doesn't take a lot of hoop jumping to win her back.  I mentioned earlier that she can still count, due to the sheer amount of lying she does, and chaos she causes.  Merrill's ends happily.

 

DA:I: Cassandra can dump the player, if you choose to make her Divine.  Josie is as loyal as they come.  Where's straight female characters do get more romances, one of them ends with a heartbreaker/cliffhanger, and the other turned out someone hiding a terrific crime.

 

Out of 6 romances across the DA games, only two of them have a sucker punch for the straight male hero.  Out of 9 romances for the female character, 2 of them end in tragedy, one demands that you kill Anders or they'll raze a city (oh hai Seb,) one was using you and your organization to cover up a horrific lie (complete with identity stealing) and one of them requires some insane hoop jumping to earn your happy ending (Alistair).  That's more than 1/2 of the total relationships for the straight female hero in the entire series.

 

I dont' have enough ME romantic experience, so I'm going to let the ME experts debate that. 

 

I'm not sure if Sebastian rates on my radar for a gut punch romance, as it can end up pretty happily with him and I've seen many a person in many a discussion talk about how glad they were to kill Anders.  It would depend on how you feel about Anders, though I share your distaste for Sebastian in that sense.  

 

Really, the ratio depends quite a lot on perspective and the definition of tragic.  Personally, I'd only rate Thane and Solas as real tragic endings, which puts it even, though the Thane and Solas gut punches are much worse than what the male PCs face for sure. 

 

I'm kind of curious, though.  Do most people consider Blackwall's lie a complete, romance ending deal breaker?  Or do people try to see it through with him and help him find redemption?  And if Blackwall unintentionally ordering the death of a family (keep in mind, he only thought he was ordering the death of the noble and his escort, not of the wife and kids) is a deal breaker, is something like Fenris trying to kill his sister also a deal breaker?  Or Cullen persuading the Warden to anull the Ferelden Circle?   Or Leliana and Zevran's murderous pasts?  Just curious how folks feel about these things.  It feels like people are being too hard on Blackwall.


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#321
phaonica

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I don't consider Cullen's a drama romance. I was referring more to Alistair and Blackwall with that comment if I could've just made some different decisions and avoided the DR or Blackwall lying I'd gladly taken it. My fault for not making that clearer ^_^

 

Also believe me I have no issue at all with some unavoidable tragic romances. They're just becoming a wee bit too common on the female side of things for me. The love can stand to be spread around.

 

I think it's an odd stance, is all, that unavoidable tragedies are fine so long as they can also happen to someone else.


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#322
Ryzaki

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I think it's an odd stance, is all, that unavoidable tragedies are fine so long as they can also happen to someone else.

 

If it's odd to be tired of being the one getting melodrama then I'm glad to be odd.

 

As for Blackwall he doesn't really have the strength of personality for me to put up with him. He's uptight and self righteous...but his background really suggests he should be the last one to be such and it's an incredible turn off. I could deal with the crime but his personality really doesn't make up for it.


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#323
Uirebhiril

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I dont' have enough ME romantic experience, so I'm going to let the ME experts debate that. 

 

I'm still confused why there is a debate at all about what some people feel. It's not a competition and it's hard to understand why anyone needs to convince others about their feelings on the matter. If you don't agree that there is a bias towards female love interests being tragedy heavy, that's fine. What is gained by arguing it with people who do feel it is that way, and are asking this to be taken into consideration for future stories? The people writing the characters can either agree with it or discard it. They aren't going to change anything unless they see it as necessary, and sometimes people need to hear about something being a bit off before they realize it's that it is necessary.

 

BioWare is not about to start axing all the tragic stories and romances. I wouldn't want them to, and neither would most others who have posted here. It really is just something to keep in mind for the future.


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#324
Hanako Ikezawa

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Personally, I'd rather there be none of these kinds of stories for anyone.



#325
whitless256

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I'm still confused why there is a debate at all about what some people feel. It's not a competition and it's hard to understand why anyone needs to convince others about their feelings on the matter. If you don't agree that there is a bias towards female love interests being tragedy heavy, that's fine. What is gained by arguing it with people who do feel it is that way, and are asking this to be taken into consideration for future stories? The people writing the characters can either agree with it or discard it. They aren't going to change anything unless they see it as necessary, and sometimes people need to hear about something being a bit off before they realize it's that it is necessary.

 

BioWare is not about to start axing all the tragic stories and romances. I wouldn't want them to, and neither would most others who have posted here. It really is just something to keep in mind for the future.

 

Because we're not arguing.  We're having a discussion.  There's nothing wrong with expressing opposing points of view and asking questions about what others think.  It was a topic posted to a public forum on which people are free to express opinions on the topic.  I don't think anyone has attacked anyone else and it's fair to express to the writers that there are varried opinions on the subject lest they think that most people agree with the OP.  

 

Plus, I'm legitimately curious about why some people feel the way they do and how they see things.  I'm sorry if this is seen as arguing or attempting to put down others' viewpoints.  I didn't think responding to the thread was limited to those that agree completely with the OP.


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