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[whitless256]

Zevran was raised to be an assassin from the age of 7, he had no choice and didn't know any better. And in DA:O I was able to play a more morally dark character, my main was an assassin herself. If crap happened to her, well she deserved it. Not interested in Leliana myself but that's because the Maker thing was a big turnoff and I prefer my LI's to be male so I don't really know.

 

My DA:I character is a lot less dark (not entirely by choice) and as such Blackwall doesn't fit. Regarding Blackwall, he knew better and had choices, he willingly chose to become a traitor for the prospect of money and then willingly sacrificed his men so he wouldn't have to take the fall for it himself. A real coward. That kind of personality is abhorrent to me. It would have been a little better had he not let his men take the fall. You find letters all over the place of his former men having to do horrible things to survive because of him. 

 

Fenris's leaving is because he can't handle his feelings, I find it understandable. He doesn't let others take the fall for him. And it's not because he's a traitorous liar who can't reconcile himself with his conscience anymore after years of deceit.

 

Where do you find the letters?  I've managed to totally miss that somehow! 

 

Thanks for the insight.  I've always given Blackwall the chance to redeem himself and he seems to take that very seriously.  But the way you put it makes sense as well.  I'm still curious on if I'm in the minority on the forgiving Blackwall thing, though.  Starting to think I am, which kind of surprises me. 

[Kimberly]

You aren't in the minority. There's a whole character thread of like minded people who love him.

[Moirnelithe]

Where do you find the letters?  I've managed to totally miss that somehow! 

 

Thanks for the insight.  I've always given Blackwall the chance to redeem himself and he seems to take that very seriously.  But the way you put it makes sense as well.  I'm still curious on if I'm in the minority on the forgiving Blackwall thing, though.  Starting to think I am, which kind of surprises me. 

When you first meet Blackwall, after you fight the bandits you find a letter on one of them. It basically says that the bandits are Blackwall's former men who reverted to banditry because of what he did to them. Another letter is found in the exiled plains in one of the burning houses somewhere in the middle of the map mentioning Thom Rainier, I vaguely recall a third one somewhere, but can't remember anything about it, sorry.

[Shari'El]

1)  But the discussion is about female protagonists and quite a few men play those characters.  And I don't think anyone is chiming in out of spite.  People are just expressing their opinion.  I'm sorry if you feel like we're attacking you're feelings just to be jerks.  I know that's not my motivation. 

 

2)  I'm sorry if I've given the impression that I'm doubting feelings because I'm not.  I'm a person that is very empathetic to my character's feelings so I understand others who are as well.  But like I've said, I'm just trying to understand why so many people seem to consider Blackwell's actions unforgivable.  I agree that bedding a woman and then leaving is an awful thing to do, and I'm not questioning that.  My question was why is Blackwall doing it a "tragic romance" when other characters walk out on the PC immediately after sex, but those are NOT considered tragic.  For example Fenris has sex with Hawke then leaves him/her for three years because he's so overwhelmed with the feels.  But I don't see anyone calling Fenris horrible.  Morrigan also leaves immediately after sex with her love interest and on the eve of battle, no less.  And she's gone for two years.  But her romance is called a happy ending.  Why is only Blackwall an unforgivable jerk for leaving the PC alone in bed?    I'm not saying he's not, I'm just curious as to why it's worse when he does it.

 

And to be fair, the Inquisitor seems fine with having sex in a barn with no doors that guards/random NPCs wander into all day long.  So her being in a barn where everyone can see is her own doing.  Though I really don't get that... you have a bedroom, Inquisitor!  Why are you not up there!  Who the heck wants to have sex on a haystack??

 

I'm also curious as to why so many people feel his crime is unforgivable whereas other characters commit crimes as well, but are considered okay.  If I'm reading your response correctly, for you it's the fact that he was paid to kill a man that bothers you.  What about other folks?  Is it the money that bothers everyone?  If so, why is Zevran considered a happy ending romance when he's paid to kill lots and lots of people?  As was Leliana as a bard.  Are they different or is any LI being a paid killer a deal breaker for a lot of people?   Personally, Zevran is one of my favorite Dragon Age romances.

 

1) It's not that, it's just that I don't understand why people keep bringing up female LIs in this context. I also feel like that this thread was made so people could make their voices heard in hope that a BioWare dev that lurks around will take note of this. It wasn't started with the intent for it to become a discussion thread about LIs, I'm not sure how much the OP expected people to attack them (you aren't attacking anyone, sure, but I've seen people just commenting to ****** us off or to diss us).

 

2) It's nice of you to apologize, but there was no need to

 

It's different because you don't wake up to find out these people disappear, they are still there after the act and they don't leave you naked & vulnerable. It's different because their reasons for doing such things are different. Blackwall's past was something I personally had an issue with. I can sympathize with many many of the characters in the game, a lot of the villains do stupid things out of misjudgment and I feel for them (even Lord Seeker Lucius - when he went on rambling on why he did what he did, I felt bad for him), but when they do it out of pure greed I don't feel anything for them. Blackwall's not even a villain, he's just a sad man with a past & his crimes were committed out of pure greed. I'll forgive Solas quicker than I forgive Blackwall (I already forgave Solas, but that's partially because I'm so uber biased with everything related to that guy). Zevran & Leliana did bother me, but only a little compared to Blackwall, these are their occupations, and their occupations were affected by their upbringings.

I'm not sure why, the concept of being an mercenary/assassin/whatever and getting paid to kill people doesn't bother me as much as a person who accepts money/gift to kill someone, the person who gave him that job wasn't his superior afterall, he could've refused.

 

TL;DR It's more complicated than that

 

And. I have no idea who thought it was a good idea to have sex in a barn O_o.

I can't imagine how lying naked on a haystack wouldn't be itchy as hell.

[In Exile]

I don't want to revive a topic we moved away from, but I'm just having a bit of a hard time understanding the more objectionable elements of the Alistair romance. Is it the power dynamics? I'm not asking in a confrontational way - I want to understand so that I'm able to identify and critise such content in the future.

[In Exile]

Wait a minute... So now Iron Bull is a bad female romance because he's had other sexual partners? If that's our new criteria that leaves us maybe two LIs left that are acceptable!

Alistair and...? Even Sebastian slept around.

I'm not sure if any female LI was a virgin. Maybe Merrill?

[Abyss108]

I think there's definitely been a bit of an imbalance in the past, with the female LIs having happier stories/ending than the male LIs.

 

I don't have any issues with individual romances - If the character they are writing suits a more tragic story, then they should definitely write it that way. However, I think they should consider the fact that it's usually the female players who end up with a sad ending when they come up with new characters. Maybe give a few male players some sad endings and some female players a few happy ones!

[Andraste_Reborn]

Alistair and...? Even Sebastian slept around.

 

If they're not only talking about Dragon Age, Liara is a virgin. I think Aerie was too? That's going back a pretty long way, though.

 

I think Alistair is the only DA love interest that actually says he's a virgin. It seems unlikely that Merrill has had previous sexual relationships, given her status in the clan, but I don't think there's anything that explicitly rules it out.

[9TailsFox]

I think there's definitely been a bit of an imbalance in the past, with the female LIs having happier stories/ending than the male LIs.

 

I don't have any issues with individual romances - If the character they are writing suits a more tragic story, then they should definitely write it that way. However, I think they should consider the fact that it's usually the female players who end up with a sad ending when they come up with new characters. Maybe give a few male players some sad endings and some female players a few happy ones!

First they make characters arcs then they include romances at the end. Solas and Morrigan  different characters but romance ending is exactly the same. Leave at the end because plot demands it.

 

And it's funny how everyone hate Blakwall he killed for money. And we have Zevran(murdere who don't even feel remors or think what he do is wrong) and Leliana. And what happened to Leliana I think in DAO she was crazy but in DAI maker save us all she is beyond crazy. She just kill everyone looks wrong at her.

[phaonica]

I personally think that the romances is not the best area to take away control, these are not usually plot important story elements so providing the possibility for more than one outcome is preferable to me and need not be resource heavy.  I do appreciate that we can't have control over everything.

I disagree. I think the romances are a good place to take away control. I don't think it's a good thing to take away an LIs illusory autonomy. Sometimes people make bad decisions and there is nothing you can do to stop them.

but I will never roll characters for Blackwall or Iron Bull, because they are hugely unappealing to me. .. We like the characters we like and I would prefer to not be punished for my preferences.

But now you've changed the argument, because instead of saying women were given less of a chance to have a happy ending, it's not because of game mechanics, it's because you don't like your romance options even when they do have happy endings.

[whitless256]

 

And it's funny how everyone hate Blakwall he killed for money. And we have Zevran(murdere who don't even feel remors or think what he do is wrong) and Leliana. And what happened to Leliana I think in DAO she was crazy but in DAI maker save us all she is beyond crazy. She just kill everyone looks wrong at her.

 

 

Leliana has always creeped me out.  I tried romancing her once in Origins, but when I woke up after sex and found her staring creepily at me I dumped her for Zevran and never looked back!  Glad my Warden did dump her!  In his import she became Divine and the halls of the chantry ran with blood.  Leliana is the creepiest murderer LI out there!   Only you don't find out until two games later that she's totally lost it. 

 

And just realized that my Warden dumping Leliana after sex puts him on the list of tragic romances!  

[Elsariel]

I don't want to revive a topic we moved away from, but I'm just having a bit of a hard time understanding the more objectionable elements of the Alistair romance. Is it the power dynamics? I'm not asking in a confrontational way - I want to understand so that I'm able to identify and critise such content in the future.

 

I don't get it either.  You were able to have a happy ending with Alistair.  The road to getting there was tough and there were a lot of traps and tricks and you may not have gotten it the first time through, but I liked that about it.  The story was all about overcoming adversity with the cards stacked against you.  Alistairs "happy-ending" romance was fitting, I think. 

 

Same with Blackwall.  Yes, he's got a history and there are bumps in the road but you are able to have a happy ending with him, too.  The fact that he's missing at the very end seems, to me, to be a glitch more than anything.  Cullen was missing for me, too until I reloaded.  If it was intentional, I'd think there'd be a note or some comment about how he left or something.  I'm not buying that he just up and leaves his lady love.

[Abyss108]

First they make characters arcs then they include romances at the end. Solas and Morrigan  different characters but romance ending is exactly the same. Leave at the end because plot demands it.

 

And it's funny how everyone hate Blakwall he killed for money. And we have Zevran(murdere who don't even feel remors or think what he do is wrong) and Leliana. And what happened to Leliana I think in DAO she was crazy but in DAI maker save us all she is beyond crazy. She just kill everyone looks wrong at her.

 

hm? They don't just throw a romance on top after they have written the entire game. These things are all planned out. The only exceptions to this are the BG2 romances, Cullen and Solas. If they just throw things in at the end with no thought, that's really bad writing. Even if they did, they know most of the characters are going to be LIs in the end.

 

Again, I'm not saying don't write sadness, or tragedy, or make every love story have a happy ending. If they have an idea for an amazing tragic story, they should 100% write that. I'm just saying, there's a pattern they always seem to follow. There's no reason the tragedy always has to go to the men, and happy endings to the women.

 

About Blackwall - I think the key difference is that he lies to you about it. And he has sex with you whilst pretending to be someone he's not. Zev/Leilianna both do bad things - but you're aware of that when you sleep with them. Blackwall is not Blackwall. He assumes someone else's identity and has sex with you whilst you think he's someone he's not.

[Ursulawinn]

I lol'd at this.  Bioware romance options are supposed to be funny and/or plot-involving and add to the immersion factor imo.  See Mordin Solus commentary on the WTF WHY?!? options for the Ms. Shepards of Mass Effect.

 

After DA II, I basically believe that the Bioware dev(s) in charge of romance are hopelessly jaded.  Seriously.  Anders is a douchebag.  Fenris is an angry, emo douchebag.  And then there's Sebastian, with his holier-than-thou chastity belt wearing douchbaggery.  I'm laughing as I type this, because it is funny.  But I see your point.  For my part, on my first playthrough I hit Anders.  Easy mark, right?  Hippie activist guy, show a little interest in the cause, done...which turned out to have a real plot fxn in the end.  Needless to say I killed the betrayer, but it did make for a better plot.

 

I poked the ex-pally with a stick this round, in DA:I, for hopes of some awkward humor...but the Cullen line takes itself very seriously.  And ex-pally or not, the guy is not awkward.  I was facepalming but it is the kind of thing many a female wants to find in her books, and Bioware games are after all choose your own adventure novels of a sort.  Cullen is probably more what you're looking for (not a douchbag)....very sappy and nothing bad happens...yet, anyway.  I can't say that it really gives the plot more bang though, pun intended or not, as you like.  Try the Cullen line for mushy instead of dramatic, if you really want that sort of thing in a game.

 

 

An aside on the "cheating" factor.  Look at the Kaiden line in Mass Effect.  The guy was a douchbag and they weren't together anymore and yet Shepard cheated.  Somehow.  I mean if being dead for two years doesn't officially break someone up, I can't conceive of what actually does.  Clearly there are strange ideas out there on this topic.

[Thane4Ever]

I didn't go through every comment - but in one PT I romanced Blackwall and stayed with him after judgement.  He didn't leave Skyhold after the final mission, I chose the "freedom" option.  There is even a conversation about them getting a house and making eggs together.  He may leave if you send him to the Grey Wardens. There is also a bug where companions disappear from Skyhold after the final mission, Varric Josephine and Cullen keep disappearing on me.

[phaonica]

I don't get it either.  You were able to have a happy ending with Alistair.  The road to getting there was tough and there were a lot of traps and tricks and you may not have gotten it the first time through, but I liked that about it.  The story was all about overcoming adversity with the cards stacked against you.  Alistairs "happy-ending" romance was fitting, I think.

It seems that for some people, Alistair's having to participate in the Dark Ritual excludes the ending from being "happy".

[Thane4Ever]

Leliana has always creeped me out.  I tried romancing her once in Origins, but when I woke up after sex and found her staring creepily at me I dumped her for Zevran and never looked back!  Glad my Warden did dump her!  In his import she became Divine and the halls of the chantry ran with blood.  Leliana is the creepiest murderer LI out there!   Only you don't find out until two games later that she's totally lost it. 

 

And just realized that my Warden dumping Leliana after sex puts him on the list of tragic romances!  

You can sway Leliana in Inquisition to not be a cold blooded murderer, and if she becomes Divine there's no bloodshed.  It starts with a choice you make in Haven.

[Dakota Strider]

If they are planning the romance, before they plan the actual role of the NPC in the game, they are doing it wrong.  As someone else said, the romance is a sidequest, and not vital to the overall story.  It is a side quest however, that many people take just as seriously as the overall game, maybe more so.  Nothing wrong with that.  But it is still a sidequest, and if the writers treat it any differently, the whole game would suffer.

[Thane4Ever]

It seems that for some people, Alistair's having to participate in the Dark Ritual excludes the ending from being "happy".

Yeah, it's pretty messed up if you think about it.  I'm replaying Origins now and it's all coming back how borderline sadistic that story line is.  I mean, he's inexperienced in bed (the Warden is his first) and then the woman he loves makes him sleep with someone he despises.

[Abyss108]

It seems that for some people, Alistair's having to participate in the Dark Ritual excludes the ending from being "happy".

 

Whilst not a fan/player of the Alistair romance, I can definitely see why some people wouldn't consider that a happy ending.

 

I doubt many male players would be happy if the only way for them not to die was to let their girlfriend Morrigan have sex and the baby of another man.

[Abyss108]

If they are planning the romance, before they plan the actual role of the NPC in the game, they are doing it wrong.  As someone else said, the romance is a sidequest, and not vital to the overall story.  It is a side quest however, that many people take just as seriously as the overall game, maybe more so.  Nothing wrong with that.  But it is still a sidequest, and if the writers treat it any differently, the whole game would suffer.

 

I'd disagree strongly with this. They should all be designed together. A well written romance should offer insight into the character, character development, and fit in with the overall plot. If it's just a little extra that doesn't mean anything, why include it at all? They should spend that development money on something that actually matters. 

[Thane4Ever]

I'd disagree strongly with this. They should all be designed together. A well written romance should offer insight into the character, character development, and fit in with the overall plot. If it's just a little extra that doesn't mean anything, why include it at all? They should spend that development money on something that actually matters. 

I agree.  Although I can recognize how difficult it must be time and budget wise to write a few different romances along with the main character, along with every dialogue choice along with the main plot.

 

I also don't understand the Zevran/Fenris apologists who also hate Blackwall or think he's an irredeemable bastard.  Zevran may have been sold to the Crows, but now he has zero remorse for all the killing he's done.  Just because it was all he knew from a young age doesn't excuse him for being all shruggy about it as an adult.  Fenris leaving you in the dust for three years because he can't handle his feels? That's way worse to me than leaving to atone for a crime, even if it's right after sex (and he does try to resist it, for the record).  There is also a dialogue choice at the tavern where you say "we have good friends, etc." and there's no sex.  The Inquisitor initiates it. I liked Fenris and Zevran, but come on now.

[whitless256]

You can sway Leliana in Inquisition to not be a cold blooded murderer, and if she becomes Divine there's no bloodshed.  It starts with a choice you make in Haven.

 

Apparently, as I learned too late, you can only soften her if you choose to ally with the mages.  I followed all the instructions for softening her, including preventing her from killing the traitor in Haven, but I still got the bloody Divine because I conscripted the Templars.   It's pretty hard to make her less crazy! 

[Moirnelithe]

I agree.  Although I can recognize how difficult it must be time and budget wise to write a few different romances along with the main character, along with every dialogue choice along with the main plot.

 

I also don't understand the Zevran/Fenris apologists who also hate Blackwall or think he's an irredeemable bastard.  Zevran may have been sold to the Crows, but now he has zero remorse for all the killing he's done.  Just because it was all he knew from a young age doesn't excuse him for being all shruggy about it as an adult.  Fenris leaving you in the dust for three years because he can't handle his feels? That's way worse to me than leaving to atone for a crime, even if it's right after sex (and he does try to resist it, for the record).  There is also a dialogue choice at the tavern where you say "we have good friends, etc." and there's no sex.  The Inquisitor initiates it. I liked Fenris and Zevran, but come on now.

 

Those are your feelings, not everyone feels the same way. *shrugs*

[Abyss108]

I agree.  Although I can recognize how difficult it must be time and budget wise to write a few different romances along with the main character, along with every dialogue choice along with the main plot.

 

I also don't understand the Zevran/Fenris apologists who also hate Blackwall or think he's an irredeemable bastard.  Zevran may have been sold to the Crows, but now he has zero remorse for all the killing he's done.  Just because it was all he knew from a young age doesn't excuse him for being all shruggy about it as an adult.  Fenris leaving you in the dust for three years because he can't handle his feels? That's way worse to me than leaving to atone for a crime, even if it's right after sex (and he does try to resist it, for the record).  There is also a dialogue choice at the tavern where you say "we have good friends, etc." and there's no sex.  The Inquisitor initiates it. I liked Fenris and Zevran, but come on now.

 

Well, for me at least, the problem with Blackwall isn't anything to do with who he might have killed. It's the fact he has sex with you under the identity of a different person. You're not having sex with who you think you are. And he lies about it for completely selfish reasons.