1109 réponses à ce sujet

[wildannie]

I disagree. I think the romances are a good place to take away control. I don't think it's a good thing to take away an LIs illusory autonomy. Sometimes people make bad decisions and there is nothing you can do to stop them.


But now you've changed the argument, because instead of saying women were given less of a chance to have a happy ending, it's not because of game mechanics, it's because you don't like your romance options even when they do have happy endings.

1- fine, lets agree to disagree.   I don't really see how your 'people make bad decisions' necessarily has anything to do with whether the end result is tragic or not.

 

2 - what argument have I changed?  I'm not backing any argument other than the one that is that *I* would prefer that *no* romances ended in forced tragedy *ever*.  I realise this is not the majority opinion, but it is *my* opinion.   Why should I like all the romance options anyway?  We get a variety of character types, and we warm to some of them more than others.   I'm not going to play this massive game with a character romancing a LI that I can't be bothered with.

I think it is unfortunate that players who gravitate towards a particular character/story when investing over 100 hours into a game can end up with a forced sad ending, with no agency whatsoever.  

[Elsariel]

It seems that for some people, Alistair's having to participate in the Dark Ritual excludes the ending from being "happy".

 

Well, they love each other and are together at the end.  Seems like they're happy.  I get that the DR is rather... unpalatable... for some, and being a mistress is not the same as being able to marry him like the noble was able to, but that doesn't mean the wardens are unhappy at the end.  

[phaonica]

Apparently, as I learned too late, you can only soften her if you choose to ally with the mages.  I followed all the instructions for softening her, including preventing her from killing the traitor in Haven, but I still got the bloody Divine because I conscripted the Templars.   It's pretty hard to make her less crazy!

I like that she's difficult to sway. It doesn't fit my playstyle to "game" her, so I'm not likely to have her softened in any of my canon world states.

[whitless256]

 

I also don't understand the Zevran/Fenris apologists who also hate Blackwall or think he's an irredeemable bastard.  Zevran may have been sold to the Crows, but now he has zero remorse for all the killing he's done.  Just because it was all he knew from a young age doesn't excuse him for being all shruggy about it as an adult.  Fenris leaving you in the dust for three years because he can't handle his feels? That's way worse to me than leaving to atone for a crime, even if it's right after sex (and he does try to resist it, for the record).  There is also a dialogue choice at the tavern where you say "we have good friends, etc." and there's no sex.  The Inquisitor initiates it. I liked Fenris and Zevran, but come on now.

 

I think it's also worth pointing out that, as Inquisitor, you have a spymaster who routinely kills people for you, including Orlesian nobles.   And you have an Ambassador who spreads rumors and ruins the lives of your enemies.  Leliana is far more ruthless than Blackwall, but no one brings her up as being an unforgivable murderer.   But the point is, as Inquisitor, you're constantly putting yourself in the position of Blackwall's employer, ordering the deaths of Orlesian nobility, directly or indirectly (often unintantionally) while at your war table. 

 

Additionally, forgiving Zevran because he was raised a Crow is one way to look at it.  But Thom Raineir was raised an Orlesian where playing the Game is what is done and paying bards or assassins to kill rivals in the game is a perfectly acceptable way of playing.  I'm not sure I see the difference.  I just find this to be another interesting way of looking at the situation.  But I also understand that, while in the middle of a love affair, not everyone is going to really sit down and think about it rationally, either.

[phaonica]

Well, for me at least, the problem with Blackwall isn't anything to do with who he might have killed. It's the fact he has sex with you under the identity of a different person. You're not having sex with who you think you are. And he lies about it for completely selfish reasons.

I'm ... pretty sure Solas isn't who he says he is ...

Edit: Ok, that probably is the point, that possibly some folks don't like this romance for the same reason. That's fine.

[Kimberly]

I'm ... pretty sure Solas isn't who he says he is ...

There isn't any scene indicating you had sex with Solas. It's ambiguous. With Blackwall you know. There is a difference.

[whitless256]

I'm ... pretty sure Solas isn't who he says he is ...

 

And he lies about it for completely selfish reasons.  

[Elsariel]

Well, for me at least, the problem with Blackwall isn't anything to do with who he might have killed. It's the fact he has sex with you under the identity of a different person. You're not having sex with who you think you are. And he lies about it for completely selfish reasons.

 

Yes, Blackwall is hiding his identity in order to avoid the concequences of his actions, but that has nothing to do with the Inquisitor.  Yes, he's wrong for not saying anything to the inquisitor before getting involved but that's a character flaw of his.  It's something he owns up to later.  He did NOT assume the name of Blackwall JUST to get into Quizzy's pants.  He'd been Blackwall for many years before he even met Quizzy.  

 

I just... Blackwall is a flawed dude.  And he knows this.  He warns Quizzy about himself many times.  As a player, you had the opportunity to bow out many times.  I just don't see how anyone can complain about his actions.  He's a man who did a bad thing and eventually tries to do something about it once another man's life is on the line.  That's good of him, no?  

[MelissaGT]

So I may be off-base here, but it seems like people want romances to have angst, hardship and strife...but yet have happy endings...but not be "too sweet/fluffy" or "Disney"...    

 

Seems to be asking for a lot... 

 

I still stand by my opinion that Bioware has done a great job (for the most part) with the romances and there are several that hit "all of the above." I like the variety we get. It seems to me that if all the romances were to fit what people are asking for, they'd all end up feeling exactly the same and quite honestly, boring. Angst and hardship, then all sunshine n' rainbows at the end...cliche and *yawn*

 

I like getting ticked off at plot developments...to me that's what draws me in and evokes reaction and feeling. That is a sign of some great writing. 

 

But again, I guess I'm just easy to please. 

[wildannie]

I think it's also worth pointing out that, as Inquisitor, you have a spymaster who routinely kills people for you, including Orlesian nobles.   And you have an Ambassador who spreads rumors and ruins the lives of your enemies.  Leliana is far more ruthless than Blackwall, but no one brings her up as being an unforgivable murderer.   But the point is, as Inquisitor, you're constantly putting yourself in the position of Blackwall's employer, ordering the deaths of Orlesian nobility, directly or indirectly (often unintantionally) while at your war table. 

 

Additionally, forgiving Zevran because he was raised a Crow is one way to look at it.  But Thom Raineir was raised an Orlesian where playing the Game is what is done and paying bards or assassins to kill rivals in the game is a perfectly acceptable way of playing.  I'm not sure I see the difference.  I just find this to be another interesting way of looking at the situation.  But I also understand that, while in the middle of a love affair, not everyone is going to really sit down and think about it rationally, either.

Zevran is basically a slave so it is very different, and it is certainly implied that he does have regrets.  His training involved torture and if he failed in his training it meant death.  I personally find Blackwall repugnant but I can see why some would choose to forgive him, but like Zevran has much better mitigating circumstances IMO...  and he's much more handsome too 

[Abyss108]

I'm ... pretty sure Solas isn't who he says he is ...

 

Yep, and there are definitely issues there. That's why Weekes didn't include a sex scene, so the player can decide for themselves after finding out about him. I think it's quite valid to have the same concerns with Solas as with Blackwall. Personally, I feel it's different enough for a few reasons -

 

1) Solas doesn't steal another's identity, he just hides certain parts. He very rarely outright lies.

2) Solas couldn't have told you who he was. He couldn't introduce himself as who he really is, as no one would have believed him.

3) Solas doesn't lie for selfish reasons. He doesn't do it to protect himself, he does it so he can help.

4) Solas doesn't necessarily lie about something bad. It's hinted that what he did was for the best. He didn't just up and murder people for money.

5) It's very clear you are not getting the full picture about Solas' past during the romance. Blackwall gives you what looks like a full true story. With Solas, you know you are missing things and make the decision whilst knowing things are missing.

 

So personally I'm OK with it, but it's equally valid to view it as a big problem.

[wildannie]

So I may be off-base here, but it seems like people want romances to have angst, hardship and strife...but yet have happy endings...but not be "too sweet/fluffy" or "Disney"...    

 

Seems to be asking for a lot... 

 

I still stand by my opinion that Bioware has done a great job (for the most part) with the romances and there are several that hit "all of the above." I like the variety we get. It seems to me that if all the romances were to fit what people are asking for, they'd all end up feeling exactly the same and quite honestly, boring. Angst and hardship, then all sunshine n' rainbows at the end...cliche and *yawn*

 

I like getting ticked off at plot developments...to me that's what draws me in and evokes reaction and feeling. That is the sign of some great writing. 

 

But again, I guess I'm just easy to please. 

I don't think that is what is being asked for,  I know that I want there to be different outcomes and I would like one of them to be optimal with at least a glimmer of hope, even if it is not fully delivered.

 

Edit:  Okay not LI or DA related but I love that it is possible for Mordin to survive in ME3 even though Shep has to be an Ass to get it , the fact that there is a choice pleases me.

Modifié par wildannie, 28 décembre 2014 - 06:16 .

[Sylvianus]

Wat. Your warden may not want babies but maybe another warden would want a baby?

I'm not sure why you are deciding for an entire group of characters what they want.

 

You are just refusing to see the point of why we think this way about this romance.

If I would've been in my warden shoes I would've had a hard hard time letting the guy I love sleep with another woman, conceive a child, and then be his mistress and sharing him with yet another woman.

And as said, if you go on and make him stay a warden (one less woman to share him with), he might get killed in the fade (depends on whether some Inquisitor decided it's him or Hawke).

 

I was telling that not being able to have a baby doesn't mean that it isn't an happy ending. I would be able to remain at the side of Cassandra, as the divine, that would mean no babies too, and I'd still consider this as happy. I'm basically telling that not everything has to be " they had a baby, they were married, everything was fine ", ( basically a disney ending ) to be considered as an happy ending. There could be complicated situations, like not being able to have an official relationship with your love. You have the possibility to ignore it and to simply choose to be a queen. Take your pick. I did both and they were both satisfying to me.

 

But I do admit, that I dont see how my grey warden, who remained commander of the warden, could be able to think about babies.True. Not even sure if it is possible to be honest. Her lifetime is also very reduced, so I don't know. My warden however did care about Alistair and the possibility to be with him, to have him all for her, which was the case. 

 

I'd consider exactly the same with a female LI. If she has a husband, ( that she hates ) but I am her only lover and if she doesn't have any business with her husband.  Yes, I couldn't have a baby, but spending all my life with my love in a happy relationship, is happy enough to me even if I am not able to have everything I'd like.

 

Allistair is only politically married to Anora, it's just an Alliance for the country that doesn't mean anything in their intimacy, he doesn't make love with her, he doesn't touch her, he refuses to do it, to consider it. He does whatever the hell he wants because he is the king after all, that's exactly his mind and what he made you understand toward the end of the game in redcliff etc. The warden doesn't share Alistair with Anora. Anora only needed to keep power and she has it and she uses it, she doesn't care either about Alistair, she doesn't need a man to rule Ferelden. 

 

When I told to Alistair that he needs to be with Anora to avoid the Civil war, ( I didn't know we could be queen ) , but we should keep our relationship, no matter what the world thought, ( basically we don't care about them )  it is pretty clear (with a hardened Alistair ) that he isn't going to have any private business with Anora. He is with his the queen, just to stop the civil war, that's it. 

 

Alistair is so blindly in love, that in the ending he doesn't even try to hide his relationship with the warden ( there are rumors among the common folks about a love relationship between the king and the HOF, ) he travels a lot, just to be with his warden, leaving the castle during a long time sometimes. It's all about passion between them, and in DAII, you are still aknowleged as his love, when he talks about going back to Ferelden. So many years after.

 

Sorry for my long post, but it is just because I don't understand how you came to think that the warden shares Alistair with Anora. 

 

________

 

The Alistair romance was awesome, and it was very sweet, adorable, and I liked the drama during the ritual, but this is my opinion, and I would have the same with a female Li, and I find some of the endings very satisfying.  Nope, I would find it objectionable to point this romance as an example for whatever point someone has about heartbreak romances. 

[whitless256]

Yep, and there are definitely issues there. That's why Weekes didn't include a sex scene, so the player can decide for themselves after finding out about him. I think it's quite valid to have the same concerns with Solas as with Blackwall. Personally, I feel it's different enough for a few reasons -

 

1) Solas doesn't steal another's identity, he just hides certain parts. He very rarely outright lies.

2) Solas couldn't have told you who he was. He couldn't introduce himself as who he really is, as no one would have believed him.

3) Solas doesn't lie for selfish reasons. He doesn't do it to protect himself, he does it so he can help.

4) Solas doesn't necessarily lie about something bad. It's hinted that what he did was for the best. He didn't just up and murder people for money.

5) It's very clear you are not getting the full picture about Solas' past during the romance. Blackwall gives you what looks like a full true story. With Solas, you know you are missing things and make the decision whilst knowing things are missing.

 

So personally I'm OK with it, but it's equally valid to view it as a big problem.

 

1)  Lies of ommission are still very real lies.  And we don't know if he stole another identity or not.... yet.

2) Very true.  Though some people in this discussion have suggested he could have told the Inquisitor if they were in love and that would have improved the romance.

3) Sure that's what he says.  But it became very clear to me by the end that he joined up to get his orb back from Cory.  He never tells you it's HIS orb either.

4) He neglects to tell you that he is at fault for the entire disaster that has killed thousands.  That's a bad thing.  Plus, we don't know his motivations yet.

5)  Blackwall is a pretty shady guy.  He's evasive when asked questions and vague in all his answers.  It was clear to me that there was something more going on with him because you never got a straight answer from the guy. 

 

And I say all this as someone who loves Solas as a character.  But he's not all puppies and rainbows of honesty.  He and Blackwall both approve when the Inquisitor helps others, which seems to hint at them both being generally good people who like it when you help the helpless.

[MelissaGT]

I don't think that is what is being asked for,  I know that I want there to be different outcomes and I would like one of them to be optimal with at least a glimmer of hope, even if it is not fully delivered.

 

But that's just it - not everything DOES end well. Things can and sometimes do end in tragedy. That's what makes these stories interesting. Believe me, I balled my eyes out over Thane...I wish we could have saved him. BUT, I acknowledge the good writing and move on. I understand this is fantasy, but even in a fantasy setting I wouldn't want to know ahead of time that everything will work out because that's what always happens. That's...boring...

 

I'm probably one of the few people on the planet that actually LIKED Mass Effect's ultimate ending. Again, it's because not everything ends with sunshine n' rainbows. The hero doesn't always make it. BUT, we do have that sliver with the one ending where Shep may still live... 

[Thane4Ever]

Apparently, as I learned too late, you can only soften her if you choose to ally with the mages.  I followed all the instructions for softening her, including preventing her from killing the traitor in Haven, but I still got the bloody Divine because I conscripted the Templars.   It's pretty hard to make her less crazy! 

I sided with the Templars and she told me how I made her see that killing wasn't always the answer, and I was able to talk her out of killing that sister on her personal mission.  However that time I chose Cassandra (I got bloody Leliana divine on another game) so I didn't see her Divine outcome, but I don't think it matters who you side with from what I've read.  I could be wrong.

[whitless256]

I sided with the Templars and she told me how I made her see that killing wasn't always the answer, and I was able to talk her out of killing that sister on her personal mission.  However that time I chose Cassandra (I got bloody Leliana divine on another game) so I didn't see her Divine outcome, but I don't think it matters who you side with from what I've read.  I could be wrong.

 

I did talk her out of killing the sister and I thought, oh good I did it!   Then I got the bloody Divine outcome, which I think comes about because of her support for mages in a world where the rebel mages were Cory's allies rather than those that fought against him.    That's just me speculating, though. 

[MelissaGT]

*snip*

 

________

 

The Alistair romance was awesome, and it was very sweet, adorable, and I liked the drama during the ritual, but this is my opinion, and I would have the same with a female Li, and I find some of the endings very satisfying.  Nope, I would find it objectionable to point this romance as an example for whatever point someone have about heartbreak romances. 

 

Well said. In my opinion (both in-game and irl), being happy doesn't need to mean married, with children... 

 

Regardless of the situation with Morrigan, I'm still of the opinion that you can have a perfectly happy ending with Alistair. You are both alive...you are together...happy. 

[wildannie]

But that's just it - not everything DOES end well.  ..snip

 

I'm probably one of the few people on the planet that actually LIKED Mass Effect's ultimate ending. Again, it's because not everything ends with sunshine n' rainbows. The hero doesn't always make it. BUT, we do have that sliver with the one ending where Shep may still live... 

Wow! really! thanks for the heads up 

I'm someone who likes to feel like I've won a game, my character having their LI die or dump them really rains on that parade.    I think ME3 actually made me unwell - seriously, I really hated it.

[Sah291]

Bioware loves the "all girls want bad boys" trope.

 

Personally I'm not drawn to heartbreak for the sake of it, but I am drawn to the romances that feel the most plot relevant and tied into the story...and unfortunately it's those LIs that seem to have the highest chance of not working out due to plot reasons forcing the characters in different directions. So for me my favorites in the DA series have been Alistair, Anders, and Solas....all of which I would consider to be difficult/tragic. 

 

I remember being blown away when Alistair dumped my mage Warden suddenly and then proceeded to throw himself at the archdemon for her at the end. It was unexpected and memorable. Even after replaying and making different choices so that they both could live, it was "happier" I guess, but the ending just didn't have the same impact. I still do the Dark Ritual and have made that my cannon ending (because I love Morrigan with Kieran in DAI), but I still prefer to headcannon my Warden ending up alone ultimately. 

 

As for Anders, what I liked about that romance was that there was an option to spare him and stay with him, but at the same time it didn't feel easy or cheapened at all because it was still a tragic outcome. 

 

Solas was just the perfect mixture of bitter and sweet, I loved it and wouldn't change it. 

 

If I had to make one complaint, my biggest criticism is that bioware has a habit of extremes sometimes...not everything has to be super grim dark to be pleasantly bittersweet. I feel Jacob was an example of an LI that they tried too hard to make drama free, to the point he was kind of boring and unpopular. Then they swept him under the rug with the inexplicable baby momma out of nowhere, just to explain why he wouldn't join your crew again. That was just bad writing, IMO. I definitely don't want to see more of that.

 

Thane had the potential to be a really beautifully written romance, but the writers seriously dropped the ball with the way it was concluded in ME3, where he just sort of dies and no one cares or comments on it...not even Shepard. I know the writers have acknowleged they dropped the ball on this one though, and the Citadel content was to make up for it. Had there been a more memorable scene between Shepard and Thane when he died, it probably would have been a favorite. Especially considering what happens to Shep herself at the end. 

 

So I guess I want to say, I do like the tragic/bittersweet romances, but not unless there is follow through and a satisfying conclusion to make it worth it. There has to be some sort of emotional payoff.

[MelissaGT]

Wow! really! thanks for the heads up 

I'm someone who likes to feel like I've won a game, my character having their LI die or dump them really rains on that parade.    I think ME3 actually made me unwell - seriously, I really hated it.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's boring to always know that "the good guys will prevail" and the hero will live happily ever after and ride off into the sunset on his/her horse/spaceship. Knowing that takes away all sense of mystery to the story.

 

I guess that's why I ABSOLUTELY LOVE George R. R. Martin's delightful punches to the gut. Nobody is safe in his world.  

[Thane4Ever]

Well, for me at least, the problem with Blackwall isn't anything to do with who he might have killed. It's the fact he has sex with you under the identity of a different person. You're not having sex with who you think you are. And he lies about it for completely selfish reasons.

He's deep in the lie and he fights being with you but he gives in, your Inquisitor is too awesome . She's the one that invites him to have sex, which is key I think - I agree it would be way more creepy if he seduces you then peaces out. There's also that whole scene where he explains that he wanted to tell you, but he didn't want to drag you in, and he wanted to be a good man to be worthy of your love, you made him a good man, blah blah.  The relationship part and their feelings are real.  If she had met him as Tom Rainier they would have still fell in love.

[Abyss108]

1)  Lies of ommission are still very real lies.  And we don't know if he stole another identity or not.... yet.

2) Very true.  Though some people in this discussion have suggested he could have told the Inquisitor if they were in love and that would have improved the romance.

3) Sure that's what he says.  But it became very clear to me by the end that he joined up to get his orb back from Cory.  He never tells you it's HIS orb either.

4) He neglects to tell you that he is at fault for the entire disaster that has killed thousands.  That's a bad thing.  Plus, we don't know his motivations yet.

5)  Blackwall is a pretty shady guy.  He's evasive when asked questions and vague in all his answers.  It was clear to me that there was something more going on with him because you never got a straight answer from the guy. 

 

And I say all this as someone who loves Solas as a character.  But he's not all puppies and rainbows of honesty.  He and Blackwall both approve when the Inquisitor helps others, which seems to hint at them both being generally good people who like it when you help the helpless.

 

He definitely isn't puppies and rainbows. 

 

1) I think omitting truth (especially when it's obvious you are doing so), and lying are very different. I'm in the minority for this though!

2) True. He should have told her. It was a weakness on his part. The main reason I like the romance, is because he does make mistakes like that. But I can also see why he didn't. He's the devil from her religion. And if he told her and she reacted badly (and she probably would!), he isn't just dumped, he's lost his only chance to make things in the world better.

3) He doesn't just join up for the orb. He wants to make things better for people. Otherwise he wouldn't get all those approval bumps from helping people.

4) You're right about his motivations, we don't know. But it is suggested that a lot of things about him being evil are wrong or misunderstood. He disapproves of cruelty, and approves of helping people. And once again, if he told you, he would lose his only chance to make things better. He doesn't lie to protect himself, he lies so he can help people.

5) OK! I haven't seen all the Blackwall content, so I'll take your word for it if it's more obvious something is up during the romance. I didn't get that feeling when I didn't romance him, but that's probably because I didn't talk to him a lot.

[Thane4Ever]

Those are your feelings, not everyone feels the same way. *shrugs*

Obviously!  

 

Yeah I noticed more on my second PT that there are red flags all over the place with Blackwall.  He basically says without actually saying it that he isn't who you think he is and you don't want to get involved.

[Rogue Master]

just like Varric said, "if she had a nice afternoon and took a nap, you'd stop reading"