1109 réponses à ce sujet

[9TailsFox]

I'm ... pretty sure Solas isn't who he says he is ...

Edit: Ok, that probably is the point, that possibly some folks don't like this romance for the same reason. That's fine.

This funny think Solas never lie to you.  He don't tell true but we never ask.

This is why I like Solas. He written amazing. We never ask how old he is. He tell true where he "live"/lived. Writes give us so much hints.

Give tribute on Fen'Harel altar, Solas approves

If you romance Solas he tells you, you wearing slave markings.

[Abyss108]

He's deep in the lie and he fights being with you but he gives in, your Inquisitor is too awesome . She's the one that invites him to have sex, which is key I think - I agree it would be way more creepy if he seduces you then peaces out. There's also that whole scene where he explains that he wanted to tell you, but he didn't want to drag you in, and he wanted to be a good man to be worthy of your love, you made him a good man, blah blah.  The relationship part and their feelings are real.  If she had met him as Tom Rainier they would have still fell in love.

 

I don't her inviting him makes a difference.... because she doesn't have enough information to make that choice. She thinks she's sleeping with Blackwall, a standup Grey Warden. But she sleeps with Rainier, a child murderer who steals Blackwalls identity.

 

I believe Blackwalls feelings are real. And if she met him as Rainier, they might have still fallen in love. And that would be fine, because that relationship wouldn't be based on a lie.

 

My main problem is I don't think Blackwall has anything to lose from telling her the truth other than getting dumped/executed for his own crimes. Whilst Solas lies because he believes the entire world will be worse off if he doesn't complete his mission.

[whitless256]

My main problem is I don't think Blackwall has anything to lose from telling her the truth other than getting dumped/executed for his own crimes.

 

I'm sorry, I get your point, but this made me laugh.  Blackwall doesn't have anything to lose but HIS LIFE.  I love that you threw this in so lightly.

 

Though lest we forget, Blackwall DOES tell the truth, at the potential cost of his own life, to save another man's life.   Just sayin. 

[Elsariel]

My main problem is I don't think Blackwall has anything to lose from telling her the truth other than getting dumped/executed for his own crimes. 

 

Considering he's in love with Quizzy, I think losing her love and respect is a pretty big thing to lose.  Is it cowardly?  Yes, absolutely.  But that's his character.  He's a flawed man.  If he was honorable and brave, he would have taken ownership of his actions years ago and would have never assumed another man's identity.  

 

That said, regardless of whether people approve of his actions or like his romance or whatever, the fact remains that a happy ending IS possible.  There is no unavoidable tragedy with his romance.  

[medusa_hair]

I don't consider Blackwall story is rape. You are not sleeping with him because you think his name is Blackwall, or because you thought he was/is a Gray Warden, or for any other reason than the fact that you love him now based on his personality and his actions toward you and others NOW, while you have known him. If you were sleeping with him because you thought he was the famous Blackwall then I guess I could give you that though I still think it's pretty tenuous. I feel that rape is sexual activity forced upon you without your consent (regardless of gender by the way). And you obviously gave your consent and in fact you were the initiator. This whole discussion has gotten kind off the tracks anyway. The original post I think was a valid one. I would point out, though, that it is a credit to the writing of the characters (especially these) that you even give a damn because if you didn't feel an attachment to them then you wouldn't care whether they dumped you or not.

[Abyss108]

I'm sorry, I get your point, but this made me laugh.  Blackwall doesn't have anything to lose but HIS LIFE.  I love that you threw this in so lightly.

 

Though lest we forget, Blackwall DOES tell the truth, at the potential cost of his own life, to save another man's life.   Just sayin. 

 

Oh XD yeah, I guess that sounds a little weird to say!

 

But lying for his own life is still a selfish lie. It's not like he's falsely accused and is lying to protect himself (I could understand that). He should have died for what he did, he purposely murdered children for money.

 

So he's willing to tell the truth to save someone else's life... but not to have a honest relationship? Honestly that just makes me question him more... because at that point we see he is willing to admit the truth for an important reason. He just didn't see the relationship as important enough.

 

I'd be OK if the situation was slightly different. E.g, if he lied to protect one of the other people who helped with the murder because they were sorry too and wanted to atone. Or if he didn't want it to be traced back to the family who hired him because there were people in that family it would affect who weren't involved. Just any reason that wasn't to protect his own ass.

 

I get that people are OK with it because he's changed since then, and he's a better person now and all that... but personally I can't stand outright lies for selfish reasons so it's hard for me to understand the appeal of Blackwall. (I'm kinda weird in that I'm fine with indirect lies though!)

[Doveberry]

I'll just chime in and say that I love me some drama and heartbreak in video games (I even tend to lose interest in romances without it), but I do not love inevitability. Without even the possibility of a happy (or happyish, or even open) ending that I can achieve somehow, my ability to enjoy the rest of the game is severely affected.

I wouldn't actually want to play games that have zero drama, but at the same time it just really irks me when I don't even have the option of generating even a slightly positive outcome. It doesn't matter to me if it's hard to get, or if I have to compromise to get it, I just want to feel that the option is there.

[Elsariel]

 He should have died for what he did, he purposely murdered children for money.

 

Just a small nitpick, but as I understand it, he didn't know there were children there.  It's not like he said "Alright, I'll murder these kids for money".  Not at all excusing him of what he did but I think it's a bit wrong to assume he purposely murdered children.

[Uirebhiril]

My main problem is I don't think Blackwall has anything to lose from telling her the truth other than getting dumped/executed for his own crimes. Whilst Solas lies because he believes the entire world will be worse off if he doesn't complete his mission.

 

That and who was going to believe him anyway? "Oh. Right. You're an ancient elven god which has been portrayed as a really horrible evil bad person. We're good. Welcome aboard!"

 

Saying he gave the orb over wasn't going to help the mission either, and would have had him locked up or dead. He was far more useful helping out in retrieving the thing. I do wonder when that transfer happened, and how. Corypheus clearly didn't recognize Solas, so it could have happened thousands of years ago, or rather than outright handing the orb to the bad guy it was just left where it could be found. I wish we knew more on how that happened.

 

I had to consider why I felt so negatively about Blackwall when Solas didn't bother me nearly as much. I figured out there was something about Solas halfway through the game, and my hunch was proven correct when the credits rolled. Blackwall seemed shady too, but I was still surprised when he disappeared. It's as I said earlier: Blackwall's repentance seems more like he was doing it to live up to an image in his head, not because he was really intending to make it right. That was just going to be the noble side effect. He is still flawed and ultimately a coward. That said, I really do like his character. His romance sounds nice for those that did it and liked it. But it doesn't change he DID lie and hid some pretty awful things just so he could avoid the consequences of his actions. In relation to this post, that's another love interest that has something to make him less than "happy" as a romance. Did it fit? Sure, but it also fits the long-term pattern of this happening. The character should not be altered to make things shiny and sparkly, because it would only diminish his story... but maybe next time, have it be one of the female love interests to which such things are necessary? It doesn't have to be Aribeth 2.0 level of betrayal, but a retelling of her story could actually be quite interesting to see.

 

Solas is a case where what happened really fits the situation and the character and could truly work as one of the poignant and painful tragic love stories. I hope there's option for something more pleasant than that, of course, but if not and if written well it would absolutely make sense. It would also absolutely be cheapened by how many times it has happened before, and make it shine that much less. That in itself is its own tragedy.

[actionhero112]

It's not like you're not used to lies though. What do you think Alistair does? It's not the same situation, but if it's the lie that matters that much to you, shouldn't that bother you just as much? 

 

Blackwall isn't the same person. I wasn't the greatest kid myself when I was 16-18, I never murdered an entire family but I did a bunch of stuff I'm not proud of. I'm not the same person I was back then, and it's not fair to judge me by those criteria. You're not perfect either.

 

The reason we judge Blackwall harshly is because it's an over dramatic reveal. Do you think Morrigan is a saint? How about Leliana, and all the murder she did in the Grand Game. Let's not forget Anders and Isabela. Zevran has done far worse than Blackwall. 

 

Again if it's the lie that matters that much, then you should hate Alistair just as much. 

 

Plus I don't believe in the death sentence. A life is precious, you don't solve death with more death. At this time, there is no point to murdering Blackwall for what he did a decade ago, it doesn't save any lives. It's just.... a waste.

[Abyss108]

Just a small nitpick, but as I understand it, he didn't know there were children there.  It's not like he said "Alright, I'll murder these kids for money".  Not at all excusing him of what he did but I think it's a bit wrong to assume he purposely murdered children.

He didn't know there were children when he took the job, but he was there when they found out and did nothing to stop it.

 

I don't consider Blackwall story is rape. You are not sleeping with him because you think his name is Blackwall, or because you thought he was/is a Gray Warden, or for any other reason than the fact that you love him now based on his personality and his actions toward you and others NOW, while you have known him. If you were sleeping with him because you thought he was the famous Blackwall then I guess I could give you that though I still think it's pretty tenuous. I feel that rape is sexual activity forced upon you without your consent (regardless of gender by the way). And you obviously gave your consent and in fact you were the initiator. This whole discussion has gotten kind off the tracks anyway. The original post I think was a valid one. I would point out, though, that it is a credit to the writing of the characters (especially these) that you even give a damn because if you didn't feel an attachment to them then you wouldn't care whether they dumped you or not.

 

Did someone say it was rape? (I haven't read all 17 pages, just want to check nobody thinks I'm calling it rape. I do think there are certain consent issues as the inquisitor doesn't have enough information to make an informed decision, but I don't think it's rape or assault. Would understand why someone would though).

[Elsariel]

He didn't know there were children when he took the job, but he was there when they found out and did nothing to stop it.

 

 

 Point.  That's right, I remember that now.

 

whitless256 has the correct answer.  He wasn't present at the time and ordered his men to kill everyone, not knowing there were children there.  So... he didn't knowingly murder children.

[Abyss108]

That and who was going to believe him anyway? "Oh. Right. You're an ancient elven god which has been portrayed as a really horrible evil bad person. We're good. Welcome aboard!"

 

Saying he gave the orb over wasn't going to help the mission either, and would have had him locked up or dead. He was far more useful helping out in retrieving the thing. I do wonder when that transfer happened, and how. Corypheus clearly didn't recognize Solas, so it could have happened thousands of years ago, or rather than outright handing the orb to the bad guy it was just left where it could be found. I wish we knew more on how that happened.

 

I had to consider why I felt so negatively about Blackwall when Solas didn't bother me nearly as much. I figured out there was something about Solas halfway through the game, and my hunch was proven correct when the credits rolled. Blackwall seemed shady too, but I was still surprised when he disappeared. It's as I said earlier: Blackwall's repentance seems more like he was doing it to live up to an image in his head, not because he was really intending to make it right. That was just going to be the noble side effect. He is still flawed and ultimately a coward. That said, I really do like his character. His romance sounds nice for those that did it and liked it. But it doesn't change he DID lie and hid some pretty awful things just so he could avoid the consequences of his actions. In relation to this post, that's another love interest that has something to make him less than "happy" as a romance. Did it fit? Sure, but it also fits the long-term pattern of this happening. The character should not be altered to make things shiny and sparkly, because it would only diminish his story... but maybe next time, have it be one of the female love interests to which such things are necessary? It doesn't have to be Aribeth 2.0 level of betrayal, but a retelling of her story could actually be quite interesting to see.

 

Solas is a case where what happened really fits the situation and the character and could truly work as one of the poignant and painful tragic love stories. I hope there's option for something more pleasant than that, of course, but if not and if written well it would absolutely make sense. It would also absolutely be cheapened by how many times it has happened before, and make it shine that much less. That in itself is its own tragedy.

 

Oh, so much agreement with everything you just wrote! You just took a lot of my thoughts on this, and wrote them a lot more eloquently then I could! 

 

It's not like you're not used to lies though. What do you think Alistair does? It's not the same situation, but if it's the lie that matters that much to you, shouldn't that bother you just as much? 

 

Blackwall isn't the same person. I wasn't the greatest kid myself when I was 16-18, I never murdered an entire family but I did a bunch of stuff I'm not proud of. I'm not the same person I was back then, and it's not fair to judge me by those criteria. You're not perfect either.

 

The reason we judge Blackwall harshly is because it's an over dramatic reveal. Do you think Morrigan is a saint? How about Leliana, and all the murder she did in the Grand Game. Let's not forget Anders and Isabela. Zevran has done far worse than Blackwall. 

 

Again if it's the lie that matters that much, then you should hate Alistair just as much. 

 

Plus I don't believe in the death sentence. A life is precious, you don't solve death with more death. At this time, there is no point to murdering Blackwall for what he did a decade ago, it doesn't save any lives. It's just.... a waste.

 

When does Alistair lie to you?  I don't like the Alistair romance (too fluffy/sappy for me), but I'm not sure what you're referring too here?

[actionhero112]

 

 

 

When does Alistair lie to you?  I don't like the Alistair romance (too fluffy/sappy for me), but I'm not sure what you're referring too here?

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

He's heir? LOL

[Elsariel]

When does Alistair lie to you?  I don't like the Alistair romance (too fluffy/sappy for me), but I'm not sure what you're referring too here?

 

I assume they're referring to how he doesn't tell you right away that he's a royal bastard?   I don't really call that a lie... he's just not telling you the whole truth of his parentage.  Not outright deceit but omission of truth.  To me, those are two different things.

[whitless256]

He didn't know there were children when he took the job, but he was there when they found out and did nothing to stop it.

 

Actually he wasn't PRESENT for the killing.  He only sent his men to do the deed, telling them to kill everyone there.  His men followed those orders and he didn't find out until after that the noble's family had been with him.   So at no time did Blackwall knowingly and intentionally murder children.  It was a tragic accident.

[Sah291]

just like Varric said, "if she had a nice afternoon and took a nap, you'd stop reading"

 

This is true... I do like happy endings too....but I like them better off screen, happening after the action is all over and the story is concluded. So suggested, but not actually shown. 

 

I don't blame people for feeling like a happy ending ought to be possible, because if not, the characters have nothing to lose and the risk just isn't worth it. That gets boring if done too often. And the "bad boy" trope works because there is also often a "nice guy" finishing last somewhere.  Garrus is actually this trope I think...Kaiden abandons Shep, and Garrus is the adorkable best friend who was always there.

[Elsariel]

Actually he wasn't PRESENT for the killing.  He only sent his men to do the deed, telling them to kill everyone there.  His men followed those orders and he didn't find out until after that the noble's family had been with him.   So at no time did Blackwall knowingly and intentionally murder children.  It was a tragic accident.

 

Aaahh... I knew there was a reason I thought he didn't knowingly kill children.  I never romanced him and have only done one play through so far so the details were fuzzy.

[d4eaming]

Oh, so much agreement with everything you just wrote! You just took a lot of my thoughts on this, and wrote them a lot more eloquently then I could! 

 

 

When does Alistair lie to you?  I don't like the Alistair romance (too fluffy/sappy for me), but I'm not sure what you're referring too here?

 

Alistair doesn't admit that he's a half blooded prince, brother of King Cailan. I never romanced him fully (got his first scene with the rose, before bailing out on the playthrough), but he does eventually tell you. I don't know if you can time it to before or after initiating the romance, though. I remember the "royal bastard" conversation on the way to Redcliff- my Dalish boy took it well enough, he was dating an assassin, you know So that may be what this person is talking about.

[actionhero112]

I assume they're referring to how he doesn't tell you right away that he's a royal bastard?   I don't really call that a lie... he's just not telling you the whole truth of his parentage.  Not outright deceit but omission of truth.  To me, those are two different things.

Not telling the truth.

What does that sound like.

 

Sorry if I seem sassy, but it seems like semantics. It may not seem like the same thing to you, but Alistair isn't even the first character that lies to you. Does Morrigan tell you why she's sent with you? She knows what killing the archdemon means. How about Ander's or Isabela, they both lie to you. In Isabela's case it results in the ravaging of kirkwall, and who knows how many children died in the crossfire. Varric lies about Hawke's whereabouts. I can go on and on. Hell doesn't Sten murder an entire family in cold blood?

 

Like it seems a bit hypocritical if you have ever enjoyed those characters, even though they do the same things that you condemn about Blackwall. 

[medusa_hair]

Did someone say it was rape? (I haven't read all 17 pages, just want to check nobody thinks I'm calling it rape. I do think there are certain consent issues as the inquisitor doesn't have enough information to make an informed decision, but I don't think it's rape or assault. Would understand why someone would though).

I was reading a couple of forums this morning and maybe I have gotten them mixed up in my head (it was pre-caffeine). Anyway one of the forums I was on was saying that because it was under false pretenses (assumed name) that legally it was. Sorry if I introduced a random subject!

[Abyss108]

Spoiler

He's heir? LOL

 

 

I assume they're referring to how he doesn't tell you right away that he's a royal bastard?   I don't really call that a lie... he's just not telling you the whole truth of his parentage.  Not outright deceit but omission of truth.  To me, those are two different things.

 

 

Alistair doesn't admit that he's a half blooded prince, brother of King Cailan. I never romanced him fully (got his first scene with the rose, before bailing out on the playthrough), but he does eventually tell you. I don't know if you can time it to before or after initiating the romance, though. I remember the "royal bastard" conversation on the way to Redcliff- my Dalish boy took it well enough, he was dating an assassin, you know So that may be what this person is talking about.

 

I thought he told you that way before he has sex with you? I always got that conversation near the very start of the game...

And that's not telling the entire story, not outright lying and stealing someone else's identity...

[whitless256]

Aaahh... I knew there was a reason I thought he didn't knowingly kill children.  I never romanced him and have only done one play through so far so the details were fuzzy.

 

If you go through all his dialogue options when you go to talk to him in prison, he gives you the whole story.  He was hired by some noble to kill a rival in the Game.  Rainier found out that the noble was traveling somewhere with some of his men.  The family was not supposed to be with him, so Rainier ordered his men, under false pretense, to kill the noble and everyone with him.  His men blindly followed the order (which, honestly, says something about his men) and killed everyone, including the wife and kids that weren't supposed to be there.  It was the death of the kids, in particular, that really tore him up.

 

When he met Warden Blackwall, he was forgiven for all his past crimes and told he could become a better man in service to the Wardens.  He looked at that as a way to start over and be a better person.  When Warden Blackwall was killed, however, he lost his chance to become a Warden because he couldn't simply wander up to the Wardens and claim, with no proof, to be a recruit.  Or at least he saw it that way.  So he became a Warden in the only way he knew how.  He became Warden Blackwall because he didn't want the world to lose a good man.  Everything he did was an attempt to atone for his wrongs, and though he was cowardly in a lot of ways, I never felt like he was a cold hearted man who killed for money.  

 

In the context of the Game, killing just that noble would have still been a crime, but it was in bounds, if you will.  Killing the wife and kids was beyond what was okay in the Game. 

 

It makes me wonder, though, that NONE of his men stopped and said "hey, there's kids here.  Do you think he meant us to kill kids?"  They blindly followed orders to murder children.  They're not entirely innocent, either.  They could have let the kids live.  So I don't feel quite as sorry for his poor, lied to men as some folks do.

[Uirebhiril]

Actually he wasn't PRESENT for the killing.  He only sent his men to do the deed, telling them to kill everyone there.  His men followed those orders and he didn't find out until after that the noble's family had been with him.   So at no time did Blackwall knowingly and intentionally murder children.  It was a tragic accident.

 

He wasn't? I recall banter from Cole suggesting he was there, and if it was not Blackwall who said that he realized at the last moment there were kids but had some reason (that I can't recall right now) to not call off his men, then someone else in-game must have said it or I read it somewhere in a letter. But I do still remember something along that line, that he was there and he realized just too late. For relative values of too-late and saving face, or your own skin I guess.

[Elsariel]

Not telling the truth.

What does that sound like.

 

Sorry if I seem sassy, but it seems like semantics. It may not seem like the same thing to you, but Alistair isn't even the first character that lies to you. Does Morrigan tell you why she's sent with you? She knows what killing the archdemon means. How about Ander's or Isabela, they both lie to you. In Isabela's case it results in the ravaging of kirkwall, and who knows how many children died in the crossfire. Varric lies about Hawke's whereabouts. I can go on and on. Hell doesn't Sten murder an entire family in cold blood?

 

Like it seems a bit hypocritical if you have ever enjoyed those characters, even though they do the same things that you condemn about Blackwall. 

 

 

Oh, I'm not condemning Blackwall, unless that "you" was a general "you" and not me specifically.  

 

And yes... chosing not to tell someone about your parentage until the time is right is not the same as outright deceit to me.  Alistair withholding the info on his parentage is not the same as if he were to make up a lie on who his parents really are.  By that logic, anyone who doesn't tell anyone everything about their life are "liars".