1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Shari'El]

I was telling that not being able to have a baby doesn't mean that it isn't an happy ending. I would be able to remain at the side of Cassandra, as the divine, that would mean no babies too, and I'd still consider this as happy. I'm basically telling that not everything has to be " they had a baby, they were married, everything was fine ", ( basically a disney ending ) to be considered as an happy ending. There could be complicated situations, like not being able to have an official relationship with your love. You have the possibility to ignore it and to simply choose to be a queen. Take your pick. I did both and they were both satisfying to me.

 

But I do admit, that I dont see how my grey warden, who remained commander of the warden, could be able to think about babies.True. Not even sure if it is possible to be honest. Her lifetime is also very reduced, so I don't know. My warden however did care about Alistair and the possibility to be with him, to have him all for her, which was the case. 

 

I'd consider exactly the same with a female LI. If she has a husband, ( that she hates ) but I am her only lover and if she doesn't have any business with her husband.  Yes, I couldn't have a baby, but spending all my life with my love in a happy relationship, is happy enough to me even if I am not able to have everything I'd like.

 

Allistair is only politically married to Anora, it's just an Alliance for the country that doesn't mean anything in their intimacy, he doesn't make love with her, he doesn't touch her, he refuses to do it, to consider it. He does whatever the hell he wants because he is the king after all, that's exactly his mind and what he made you understand toward the end of the game in redcliff etc. The warden doesn't share Alistair with Anora. Anora only needed to keep power and she has it and she uses it, she doesn't care either about Alistair, she doesn't need a man to rule Ferelden. 

 

When I told to Alistair that he needs to be with Anora to avoid the Civil war, ( I didn't know we could be queen ) , but we should keep our relationship, no matter what the world thought, ( basically we don't care about them )  it is pretty clear (with a hardened Alistair ) that he isn't going to have any private business with Anora. He is with his the queen, just to stop the civil war, that's it. 

 

Alistair is so blindly in love, that in the ending he doesn't even try to hide his relationship with the warden ( there are rumors among the common folks about a love relationship between the king and the HOF, ) he travels a lot, just to be with his warden, leaving the castle during a long time sometimes. It's all about passion between them, and in DAII, you are still aknowleged as his love, when he talks about going back to Ferelden. So many years after.

 

Sorry for my long post, but it is just because I don't understand how you came to think that the warden shares Alistair with Anora. 

 

________

 

The Alistair romance was awesome, and it was very sweet, adorable, and I liked the drama during the ritual, but this is my opinion, and I would have the same with a female Li, and I find some of the endings very satisfying.  Nope, I would find it objectionable to point this romance as an example for whatever point someone has about heartbreak romances. 

 

The reason I commented about a warden babies is because she may want babies, I wrote it as a reply to the fact you said the warden won't want babies since she's fighting darkspawn. I haven't even bothered thinking whether or not my warden wanted babies, I don't want babies so it always leans to a no. I just felt the need to reply to that specific statement you've made.

 

What happened in DA2 occurred very close to the time of fifth blight, it hasn't been years (you can view the timeline in DA site), but it's irrelevant. 

 

You interpret their ending as a happy ending, and while I respect your opinions, a lot of people didn't feel that way.

The part that (I think) bothered people the most is that in order for Alistair & HoF to live and be together is that Alistair needs to sleep with Morrigan. The look on his face, the obvious fact he doesn't want to do that, and the general idea you must share your lover with another is just ugghh...

The are many sweet things in this romance but it's still disheartening that you must do these things, otherwise he'll die or you die or whatever.

[d4eaming]

I remember the huge outcry over ME3's romance choices. I prefer playing men who romance men, so it wasn't something that effected me personally there, but as I recall:

 

Male Shepard had umpteen romance options

Female Shepard had: 2. Garrus (only if you romanced him in ME2); Kaidan (only if you didn't kill him on Virmire in ME1). Thane dies and doesn't even give a romance completed achievement, and Jacob is a cheating bastard. If you didn't romance Garrus through ME2 (and he could potentially die- but why would you kill Garrus? lol!), then you couldn't romance him in 3. If you sacrificed Kaidan on Virmire, then he was out, too. So any female Shepard could conceivably have a big fat zero for male romance options. Those odds suck.

 

I found the Dark Ritual option icky enough on my gay male Dalish that I had him convince Alistair to do it (which was... not much better. eternal guilt). If I'd played a female romancing him, it'd be 10 times worse. Sebastian in DA2 isn't even a "real" romance, ie it's not fleshed out, has less content, etc; can still end tragically though, depending on how you feel about Anders. I thought Fenris had a pretty happy ending, especially on the friend path. Anders, well, that all again comes down to how you feel about him and what he did. I had one character execute him, all the rest let him live, a couple of them romanced him. It's definitely not my definition of "happy", but it's better than some.

 

It's a trend I've noticed too, but it hasn't impacted me as much because I normally play men. What got me hooked was way back, when I played a female wizard and was introduced to romances via Valen Shadowbreath. Now there was a wonderful, angsty romance with a boy with a dark past who needed your help to move on and recover from the horribleness, where he could potentially betray you, but doing things right would save him. And the ending then goes on to say how you had many adventures together. sigh I still remember with glee my PC asking him to consummate their relationship right at the end and his shocked "right here, on the floor?" (there was people watching!) response. Oh Valen. I want another one of you.

[Abyss108]

Not telling the truth.

What does that sound like.

 

Sorry if I seem sassy, but it seems like semantics. It may not seem like the same thing to you, but Alistair isn't even the first character that lies to you. Does Morrigan tell you why she's sent with you? She knows what killing the archdemon means. How about Ander's or Isabela, they both lie to you. In Isabela's case it results in the ravaging of kirkwall, and who knows how many children died in the crossfire. Varric lies about Hawke's whereabouts. I can go on and on. Hell doesn't Sten murder an entire family in cold blood?

 

Like it seems a bit hypocritical if you have ever enjoyed those characters, even though they do the same things that you condemn about Blackwall. 

 

I really do think it's different. Not choosing to spill your entire life's history the moment you meet someone is different to me than immediately deciding they never deserve to know and inventing an entire story so they won't ask. You don't tell someone everything bad you've ever done in your life, but if it comes up you don't invent a story so they won't find out. And when a relationship turns serious, you stop and tell them. 

 

I was reading a couple of forums this morning and maybe I have gotten them mixed up in my head (it was pre-caffeine). Anyway one of the forums I was on was saying that because it was under false pretenses (assumed name) that legally it was. Sorry if I introduced a random subject!

 

OK, thanks for clearing it up! 

 

If you go through all his dialogue options when you go to talk to him in prison, he gives you the whole story.  He was hired by some noble to kill a rival in the Game.  Rainier found out that the noble was traveling somewhere with some of his men.  The family was not supposed to be with him, so Rainier ordered his men, under false pretense, to kill the noble and everyone with him.  His men blindly followed the order (which, honestly, says something about his men) and killed everyone, including the wife and kids that weren't supposed to be there.  It was the death of the kids, in particular, that really tore him up.

 

When he met Warden Blackwall, he was forgiven for all his past crimes and told he could become a better man in service to the Wardens.  He looked at that as a way to start over and be a better person.  When Warden Blackwall was killed, however, he lost his chance to become a Warden because he couldn't simply wander up to the Wardens and claim, with no proof, to be a recruit.  Or at least he saw it that way.  So he became a Warden in the only way he knew how.  He became Warden Blackwall because he didn't want the world to lose a good man.  Everything he did was an attempt to atone for his wrongs, and though he was cowardly in a lot of ways, I never felt like he was a cold hearted man who killed for money.  

 

In the context of the Game, killing just that noble would have still been a crime, but it was in bounds, if you will.  Killing the wife and kids was beyond what was okay in the Game. 

 

It makes me wonder, though, that NONE of his men stopped and said "hey, there's kids here.  Do you think he meant us to kill kids?"  They blindly followed orders to murder children.  They're not entirely innocent, either.  They could have let the kids live.  So I don't feel quite as sorry for his poor, lied to men as some folks do.

 

Ah, I might have made a mistake then... I could have swore he knew and could have prevented it. That changes things a bit then, if he really had no idea until after the deed was done...

[Phate Phoenix]

He wasn't? I recall banter from Cole suggesting he was there, and if it was not Blackwall who said that he realized at the last moment there were kids but had some reason (that I can't recall right now) to not call off his men, then someone else in-game must have said it or I read it somewhere in a letter. But I do still remember something along that line, that he was there and he realized just too late. For relative values of too-late and saving face, or your own skin I guess.

 

Popping in to say that's how I'd always read that banter. It has my favorite line from any Cole banter I've heard so far.

 

Spoiler

Blackwall: You, who heal the helpless... you're not angry about what I was hiding?

Cole: You never hid from me.

Cole: "Mockingbird, mockingbird." Too many voices in the carriage. Maker, they're young.

Cole: If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie. Cold, trapped, heart hammering like axes on a carriage door.

Blackwall: Stop. Please.

[whitless256]

 

Popping in to say that's how I'd always read that banter. It has my favorite line from any Cole banter I've heard so far.

 

Spoiler

Blackwall: You, who heal the helpless... you're not angry about what I was hiding?

Cole: You never hid from me.

Cole: "Mockingbird, mockingbird." Too many voices in the carriage. Maker, they're young.

Cole: If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie. Cold, trapped, heart hammering like axes on a carriage door.

Blackwall: Stop. Please.

 

 

I never took Blackwall and Cole out together.   Could have been I misunderstood some of the story Blackwall told in prison.  I'll have to pay closer attention next time I do the quest. 

[wildannie]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's boring to always know that "the good guys will prevail" and the hero will live happily ever after and ride off into the sunset on his/her horse/spaceship. Knowing that takes away all sense of mystery to the story.

 

I guess that's why I ABSOLUTELY LOVE George R. R. Martin's delightful punches to the gut. Nobody is safe in his world.  

Not sure why you are continuing to imply that I'm asking for a rides off into the sunset ending.  I consider Anders' romance to have a happyish ending,  I'm also fine with Alistair having to do a dark ritual to survive although I understand why some aren't.  For me, happy is not having to watch you LI die, and not having to be dumped with no knowledge as to why.  The ending of the Solas romance is fine for now but it will be really rubbish if we don't get some satisfying closure on it, and it is not going to be satisfying if we have to kill him or watch him die, that would be horrific.

 

Honestly,  I've read all of asoiaf and hear everyone going on about how he kills off main characters etc but haven't really found any massive gut punches in there,  the 'gut punches' are all pretty well signposted, the product of being not very good at the 'game'.  I absolutely love the books and can't wait for the next one.  I don't get anywhere near as emotionally attached to characters in literature or on film,  I think it is because I am engaged in the stories and characters of a BW game so much more.  

[Abyss108]

I'm so confused about whether he was/wasn't there now! 

 

I'm sure he said something that implied he was... And it wasn't the Cole banter as I never took them out together... Maybe it's a line you only get with certain dialogue options.... 

[Abelas Forever!]

I was thinking a while ago that it would be easier for me to play as a straight male PC because then I would know that whoever I choose to be my LI then I would know that there is always a way to be together with her in the end. Unfortunately I like to play as a female PC. I liked Alistair romance very much but to me it didn't have a happy ending more like bittersweet happy ending because you will have to let him sleep with Morrigan if you want that both of you will survive the final battle. I didn't mind the other problems as much as the DR. They were a little bit annoying but it was ok because I could always choose for example should I recruit Loghain or not. I think there was quite a lot drama in Alistair romance if you happened to make wrong decisions but at least you could be together in the end. Honestly it took me a while to get over with the DR. Then came DAI and Alistair was still warden and together with my warden and I like him to be warden more than I like him to be king. My Hawke was with Fenris and she was very dear to me and liked their romance. So the decision to choose who will be left behind in the fade was very difficult. Because I want to imagine that my PC and her LI will be together forever after everything they have experienced together. Well now that wasn't possible anymore. Fortunately there is the keep so I can avoid this situation by making a Hawke which I don't care about. But it's not the same as to choose my own Hawke.

 

I'm not a fan of tragic romances but I liked Thane romance very much even if he died in ME3. It wasn't a surprise to me because somehow I knew that it wouldn't end well. I was also very lucky that I didn't romance Jacob because you couldn't see what would happen in ME3. I think I would have been quite devastated and angry. It's sometimes nice to have romances like Alistair and warden but it's also nice to have a normal romance where you don't have to be afraid all the time that something bad will happen.

 

I'm still hoping that there will be DLC where you can see Solas and you can decide whether you will want to be with him or not. I would be happy if you could be together even if it means that you will have to leave everybody and never see them again. That would be my happy ending. I think I would be quite frustrated if there isn't a way to be together with Solas because all the difficulties with Alistair and warden and Thane and Shepard I really would like that there is hope for the female PCs to be together with their LIs. I also think that there could be enough drama even if you could have a happy ending with your LI. I'm not saying that there should always be chance for that but would it hurt? If I would have romanced Jacob and given a chance to get him back I would have never done that.

[Uirebhiril]

I remember the huge outcry over ME3's romance choices. I prefer playing men who romance men, so it wasn't something that effected me personally there, but as I recall:

 

Male Shepard had umpteen romance options

Female Shepard had: 2. Garrus (only if you romanced him in ME2); Kaidan (only if you didn't kill him on Virmire in ME1). Thane dies and doesn't even give a romance completed achievement, and Jacob is a cheating bastard. If you didn't romance Garrus through ME2 (and he could potentially die- but why would you kill Garrus? lol!), then you couldn't romance him in 3. If you sacrificed Kaidan on Virmire, then he was out, too. So any female Shepard could conceivably have a big fat zero for male romance options. Those odds suck.

 

 

Don't forget the part that if female Shepard isn't in a romance in the Citadel DLC you wake up with Javik. Whether you want to or not. If you don't date-rape Vega.

[actionhero112]

Oh, I'm not condemning Blackwall, unless that "you" was a general "you" and not me specifically.  

 

And yes... chosing not to tell someone about your parentage until the time is right is not the same as outright deceit to me.  Alistair withholding the info on his parentage is not the same as if he were to make up a lie on who his parents really are.  By that logic, anyone who doesn't tell anyone everything about their life are "liars".  

No but not telling someone important information about your situation, information that the entirety of Ferelden desperately needed is a lie. Who knows how many people died because Alistair couldn't admit to who he is. Also Alistair says he's an orphan, but he knows who one of his parents is. 

 

"You" was referring to the player. 

 

Plus again, he's not even the only other person to lie to you (player) as a companion. The difference is that Blackwall shows remorse, which leads the player to take his crime more seriously, than say Zevran's or Leliana's more casual discussion of the murders they've committed. Isabela stole a book which lead to the near destruction of a city and countless deaths. I find it funny that people hate him but they love people like Sten, Zevran, Morrigan, Anders, Isabela. The list goes on. 

[whitless256]

I'm so confused about whether he was/wasn't there now! 

 

I'm sure he said something that implied he was... And it wasn't the Cole banter as I never took them out together... Maybe it's a line you only get with certain dialogue options.... 

 

Me too!  I thought I understood the story, now I'm not sure!

 

Either way, though, I don't think he's a bad man.  He's a good man that made a very bad choice then spent the rest of his life trying to make up for it.   On my second playthrough I picked up on a few more things about him.  In particular, the line he says when you first meet him after he trained those boys to defend themselves.

 

"Grey Wardens can inspire.  Make you better than you think you are."   He's not really talking about those farmers.  He's talking about himself. 

[Abyss108]

Don't forget the part that if female Shepard isn't in a romance in the Citadel DLC you wake up with Javik. Whether you want to or not. If you don't date-rape Vega.

 

Um, what? 

 

ME just forces you to sleep with Javik if you're not already with someone?? 

 

Uh.... Thats...... um.... 

 

I don't even know what to say to that... 

[LadyJaneGrey]

Um, what? 

 

ME just forces you to sleep with Javik if you're not already with someone?? 

 

Uh.... Thats...... um.... 

 

I don't even know what to say to that... 

 

Yeah...don't let your unattached femshep who hangs out with Javik get too drunk.  The choice of music for that particular scene is brilliant though. 

[Elsariel]

No but not telling someone important information about your situation, information that the entirety of Ferelden desperately needed is a lie. Who knows how many people died because Alistair couldn't admit to who he is. Also Alistair says he's an orphan, but he knows who one of his parents is.

Alistair admits the truth early enough in the game for it to not be an issue. It's not like he admitted it right before the landsmeet. And I'm not following who would have died because he chose not to tell your hero the truth until Redcliffe. It's not like nobody in the world knew.

[Kulyok]

Um, what? 

 

ME just forces you to sleep with Javik if you're not already with someone?? 

 

Uh.... Thats...... um.... 

 

I don't even know what to say to that... 

 

Best one-night stand ever?

[Little Princess Peach]

my god we should all know by now that the \Bioware team are a bunch of bittersweet fans we can't have a happy ever after because it's not in there nature to make a game with a happy ending for the li

[Abyss108]

Best one-night stand ever?

 

XD Sure!

 

Now I'm almost tempted to make a Mass Effect playthrough where I DON'T romance Garrus just to see this! 

[Kimberly]

XD Sure!
 
Now I'm almost tempted to make a Mass Effect playthrough where I DON'T romance Garrus just to see this!

YouTube it, it's out there. Its hilarious.

[Sister Squish]

Don't forget the part that if female Shepard isn't in a romance in the Citadel DLC you wake up with Javik. Whether you want to or not. If you don't date-rape Vega.

 

From this, and the way that DA2 Hawke is assumed to be courting Anders if you are simply kind to him without actively turning him down, we can say that these games heavily imply that a romance sub-plot would compliment the main experience. 
 

^ An argument against those suggesting that romantic sub-plots are completely separate from main plotlines. The character of Solas in DA:I seems so bound up in the main plotline that his romance is set leagues apart from the rest; despite it having less content. 

[Kulyok]

^ An argument for those suggesting that romantic sub-plots are completely separate from main plotlines. The character of Solas in DA:I seems so bound up in the main plotline that his romance is set leagues apart from the rest; despite it having less content. 

Sure, call us "delicate" if you must. It doesn't change the fact that some of us would prefer for a game not to make us more depressed than when we booted it up for that hit of fantasy escapism. 

 

I'm totally in favor of them making it up to us.

Spoiler

Making the Inquisitor a minor goddess in one of those upcoming DLCs would absolutely work for me. Mythal, Fen'Harel, Mother of the Halla, Andruil... and Lavellan. Yep. I even know where I'd like them to place my statues. Riding the Dread Wolf. Then again, I wouldn't mind a tragic ending, either. As long as it's got closure, and as long as it's written with the same great love.

[Abyss108]

From this, and the way that DA2 Hawke is assumed to be courting Anders if you are simply kind to him without actively turning him down, we can say that these games heavily imply that a romance sub-plot would compliment the main experience. 
 

^ An argument for those suggesting that romantic sub-plots are completely separate from main plotlines. The character of Solas in DA:I seems so bound up in the main plotline that his romance is set leagues apart from the rest; despite it having less content. 

 

The Solas romance has made me feel a lot better about Bioware romance than I used to. I used to feel we always got the short end of the stick - less options in ME, less plot relevence in DA:O... The way the Solas romance is worked into the main plot is quite amazing when you consider it's only available to female elves. 

 

I'm totally in favor of them making it up to us.

Spoiler

Making the Inquisitor a minor goddess in one of those upcoming DLCs would absolutely work for me. Mythal, Fen'Harel, Mother of the Halla, Andruil... and Lavellan. Yep. I even know where I'd like them to place my statues. Riding the Dread Wolf. Then again, I wouldn't mind a tragic ending, either. As long as it's got closure, and as long as it's written with the same great love.

 

Spoiler

Ooooh, I am so in favour of Godhood! I missed my chance back in BG! We already have some of his power from the anchor, and a geas to Mythal, so who knows what lies in the future...

I'm OK with whatever ending we get as long as it has closure, and some form of player choice. It doesn't have to a choice between happy/sad, but I want to have some sort of bearing on how the romance ends. You don't get that in main game currently (which I'm fine with as long as there's something more in the future). I just want Lavellan to have some input into the ending as well as Solas.

[In Exile]

If you go through all his dialogue options when you go to talk to him in prison, he gives you the whole story. He was hired by some noble to kill a rival in the Game. Rainier found out that the noble was traveling somewhere with some of his men. The family was not supposed to be with him, so Rainier ordered his men, under false pretense, to kill the noble and everyone with him. His men blindly followed the order (which, honestly, says something about his men) and killed everyone, including the wife and kids that weren't supposed to be there. It was the death of the kids, in particular, that really tore him up.

When he met Warden Blackwall, he was forgiven for all his past crimes and told he could become a better man in service to the Wardens. He looked at that as a way to start over and be a better person. When Warden Blackwall was killed, however, he lost his chance to become a Warden because he couldn't simply wander up to the Wardens and claim, with no proof, to be a recruit. Or at least he saw it that way. So he became a Warden in the only way he knew how. He became Warden Blackwall because he didn't want the world to lose a good man. Everything he did was an attempt to atone for his wrongs, and though he was cowardly in a lot of ways, I never felt like he was a cold hearted man who killed for money.

In the context of the Game, killing just that noble would have still been a crime, but it was in bounds, if you will. Killing the wife and kids was beyond what was okay in the Game.

It makes me wonder, though, that NONE of his men stopped and said "hey, there's kids here. Do you think he meant us to kill kids?" They blindly followed orders to murder children. They're not entirely innocent, either. They could have let the kids live. So I don't feel quite as sorry for his poor, lied to men as some folks do.

That's the thing. I can't feel sorry for his men seeing as they made the call to kill children without much of a debate. The whole issue wasn't that he somehow tricked them into killing kids - it's that they'd only kill kids if Blackwall had really asked them to do it.

That's wild. They're all murderers and absolutely deserved to hand.

[Dakota Strider]

So, romancing Solas should be a major plotline?  What about the majority of those that did not play a female elf? 

[Uirebhiril]

So, romancing Solas should be a major plotline?  What about the majority of those that did not play a female elf? 

 

Probably works the same for the majority that did not romance Morrigan in DA:O.

 

And as a totally OT aside: Years back when I was doing D&D games through NWN, one of the major NPCs used that portrait in your avatar. It's really tripping me up because I feel like I know you. I was your creator dammit!

[MelissaGT]

Not sure why you are continuing to imply that I'm asking for a rides off into the sunset ending.  I consider Anders' romance to have a happyish ending,  I'm also fine with Alistair having to do a dark ritual to survive although I understand why some aren't.  For me, happy is not having to watch you LI die, and not having to be dumped with no knowledge as to why.  The ending of the Solas romance is fine for now but it will be really rubbish if we don't get some satisfying closure on it, and it is not going to be satisfying if we have to kill him or watch him die, that would be horrific.

 

Honestly,  I've read all of asoiaf and hear everyone going on about how he kills off main characters etc but haven't really found any massive gut punches in there,  the 'gut punches' are all pretty well signposted, the product of being not very good at the 'game'.  I absolutely love the books and can't wait for the next one.  I don't get anywhere near as emotionally attached to characters in literature or on film,  I think it is because I am engaged in the stories and characters of a BW game so much more.  

 

I was pretty much responding to this statement: I'm someone who likes to feel like I've won a game, my character having their LI die or dump them really rains on that parade.    I think ME3 actually made me unwell - seriously, I really hated it.

 

I apologize if I misunderstood your reasoning behind not liking the ME3 ending - I thought you were implying that you didn't like it because Shepard dies in 2/3 options (and probably dies with the 3rd). Either way, Shep is either lost forever, or (if he/she survives) is utterly separated from his/her love interest by light years of space. 

 

ASOIAF does have quite a few jaw droppers that I didn't see coming. I remember reading

Spoiler

about Littlefinger dropping Lysa out the moon door. I was like, "did that just happen?" I really disliked Lysa anyways, but I still totally did not see that coming.

Also, not to compare the books to the show, but I'm pretty sure nobody saw the red wedding coming, or the death of Joffrey, or the first gut-punch - the death of Ned Stark. After Ned's death, I remember my b/f getting up and saying "F&@K that show!" and walking away. BTW I totally enjoyed being that smug person sitting on the couch while everybody freaked out.